First Microsoft, next Apple??

Will Apple now also get a big EU fine?
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7002612.stm

Oh no!

Uh, the EU is already investigating Apple on this very subject. One of the investigators publicly stated that Apple was not harming the consumer with iTunes just the other day.

While Apple has tied the iPod to the iTMS, it's not completely tied to it. You can still rip your own content, which is not illegal in most of the EU, and load it onto the iPod. You can buy digital music with no DRM from 3rd party sellers and load it into iTunes and onto your iPod just fine. Guys like the author of this article are just looking for a way to "get even" with Apple.

^^iTunes is also able to be uninstalled from the computer. Windows media player (along with IE) cannot.

this seems... kind of ridiculous. the ipod (almost) needs itunes. big deal. there is a lot of hardware devices that require specific software. take the zune for example. the mp3 player that isn't even usable with a mac. if you want to use an ipod, use itunes, it's not that big of a deal. if you don't want to use itunes, than i guess you don't get an ipod. (unless you go one of those other routes now available). this isn't even close to the same thing microsoft did. monopolization by imbedding the software and 'causing it to interfere with the competition just does not compare to needing to use specific software to use a hardware device... i just... this is ridiculous...

There are alternative to iTunes, although none are all that good.

ki99 said:

this seems... kind of ridiculous. the ipod (almost) needs itunes. big deal. there is a lot of hardware devices that require specific software. take the zune for example. the mp3 player that isn't even usable with a mac. if you want to use an ipod, use itunes, it's not that big of a deal. if you don't want to use itunes, than i guess you don't get an ipod. (unless you go one of those other routes now available). this isn't even close to the same thing microsoft did. monopolization by imbedding the software and 'causing it to interfere with the competition just does not compare to needing to use specific software to use a hardware device... i just... this is ridiculous...

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Not looking to start a war or get flamed but if the article is accurate there are more similarities than differences. If you flip what most ppl are saying in responses here and apply it to MS the same could be said. For example if you don't want to use ie don’t use windows, use Linux, or osx. Its not that big of a deal there are alternatives. As far as monopolization and interfering with competitors on a product this is exactly what apple has done as reported with the ipod as well as what they are doing with the iphone. The entire ringtone issue comes to mind.

Personally I don't care one way or another of ms or apple is doing this sort of thing. It is irritating but I can understand why both attempt to put a lock on their market share. Ironically I think these very attempts drive people away to other options. Case in point would be the rise in market share for apple computers. If ms would of been putting the gatekeeping resources into development there wouldn't be so many unhappy windows users possibly. I know apple always portrays itself as the hip alternative style computer that is all out for the customer, but of course in reality they have shareholders to account to and are out to make a profit. I am not saying it is wrong, trust me on that who doesn't like to make money but it seems they have become more transparent regardless of the marketing hype. I think apple makes some great products w/o a doubt hence the reason I’m typing on one right now but like any other company their main goal is to get market share and maintain it.

I do agree with what you guys are saying, but for different reasons. I don't believe any kind of governing body should be able to dictate what a personal product can or can't do baring safety concerns. That should be left up to the company and consumers, nothing speaks louder than drying up sales.

Michael415 said:

Not looking to start a war or get flamed but if the article is accurate there are more similarities than differences. If you flip what most ppl are saying in responses here and apply it to MS the same could be said. For example if you don't want to use ie don’t use windows, use Linux, or osx. Its not that big of a deal there are alternatives. As far as monopolization and interfering with competitors on a product this is exactly what apple has done as reported with the ipod as well as what they are doing with the iphone. The entire ringtone issue comes to mind.

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While I don't disagree with you, saying "Use Linux" or "Use OSX" is not really a good answer. Since OSX ONLY runs properly on Apples machines, it's not a viable alternative for many. Since Linus (any flavor) is not ready for the average user, it's not a viable alternative either.

What you fail to realize is that the DRM issues with iTunes are not driven by Apple, but by the Music industry, Apple doesn't have to license it's DRM, but the industry could just as easily choose to sell DRM free media (as EMI has done). I agree on the Ringtone issue, as it is a specific exemption in the DMCA. Either Apple or the RIAA/Lables are being greedy in this case.

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baggss said:

While I don't disagree with you, saying "Use Linux" or "Use OSX" is not really a good answer. Since OSX ONLY runs properly on Apples machines, it's not a viable alternative for many. Since Linus (any flavor) is not ready for the average user, it's not a viable alternative either.

What you fail to realize is that the DRM issues with iTunes are not driven by Apple, but by the Music industry, Apple doesn't have to license it's DRM, but the industry could just as easily choose to sell DRM free media (as EMI has done). I agree on the Ringtone issue, as it is a specific exemption in the DMCA. Either Apple or the RIAA/Lables are being greedy in this case.

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I would totally agree with you that my understanding of DRM issues is very limited. I was actually referring more to the part of the article where he states the changes wont stop ppl from addding non-DRM files to the library but to stop third party players from working. Also the insertion of a smart chip so only authorized cables, etc will work. This is nothing new, motorola did it for years in an attempt to force ppl to buy their accessories. I think apple makes great stuff but variety is always good and competition always is better for the consumer.

Something else you wrote caught my attention about apple, that basically its a closed computer setup so I guess its good that its a small percentage of the market otherwise the EU would have a field day.

I used windows for many many years. I also used iTunes (instead of Media Player) and Firefox (instead of IE). I think all of this stuff the EU is doing is crap. I never felt like I needed protection from the big bad wolf...

illy5603 said:

I used windows for many many years. I also used iTunes (instead of Media Player) and Firefox (instead of IE). I think all of this stuff the EU is doing is crap. I never felt like I needed protection from the big bad wolf...

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Exactly, I like iTunes and the iPod, they work great together and give me no headaches. On my windows computers I use the software I choose to use, I am not locked into using Microsoft's products just as I'm not locked into using safari on my macs. Although included software on a Mac generally works much better than included software on a windows PC. Maybe the EU is just trying to say "Attention Microsoft, fix your products!" This whole argument is kinda silly.

babarnette said:

Maybe the EU is just trying to say "Attention Microsoft, fix your products!"

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This wouldn't surprise me, the Vista launch was a complete disaster for a lot of the people I knew who upgraded....One of the members of another forum I frequent bought a computer that was pre-installed with vista ultimate, and it wouldn't recognize the Blu-Ray drives she had in it....So she basically had a really expensive paperweight for a week until the patch came out for it. Microsoft products are the main reason I bought a Mac this time around, and I think that Microsoft product is the main reason why there is a rising demand for Macs....Incredibly unreliable and over-complicated, not to leave out all of the viruses/spyware/keyloggers/etc.....

I think the argument with Microsoft was that they killed off any competition by including their own versions of software so people didn't buy from other venders (Netscape, Real...).

How much competition has Apple had with its browsers or media players? Safari is quite a new addition to the Mac; before that (correct me if I'm wrong) Mac OS shipped with third-party browsers installed anyway (which Apple was paying for, including IE for a time [only that was part of a deal to resolve the problem of QuickTime code turning up in Microsoft software... no payment involved... unless MS was paying Apple]). By the time Safari came to be, browsers where free anyway because of this Microsoft thing the EU are complaining about.

Before iTunes there was QuickTime, which was free for Mac or Windows users, and was the only player in the game... QuickTime wasn't removing competition; it set the precedent that videos could be played on a computer; it created the market. Without QuickTime, Media Player and all the others wouldn't even exist (at least, not as soon as they did).

There's never been an issue of people buying software for Mac OS that Apple has then provided for free and got rid of competition. iTunes may be different; but iTunes is a part of iLife... there'd be more complaints from consumers if we all had to buy iLife with our Macs rather than getting it pre-installed for free, so that doesn't make much sense.

Good, I hope now apple stop trying to kill off any competition.

As a recent switcher, I can say honestly that each platform has their individual strengths and weaknesses, even on my Desktop pc (windows xp) I havn't even updated IE or WMP for a few years, my Itunes is up-to-date along with mozilla (and when I get around to it safari, though i wonder if it is compatible?)
There are a few major differences that I dont think people are seeing (especially the articles author) Back in the day, windows had "windows only" products, they get away with programs now by claiming to not be involved with development, but windows only monitors, printers, modems, and many other products... Name a peace of mac hardware that is not pc compatible (Aside from thoes running OSX duh...) My Ipod bounces back and forth, as do my external hardrives, mighty mouse, even there fricken computers are now Windows compatible (bootcamp). As for the Itunes, I do see the issue here, and while they may not be 100% fair in this area, here is the reality... NO paid sites to my knoledge are selling 100% open files, meaning even kmarts tunes shop was in WM format... the reality is if the itunes files were all .mp3's the music company would flip out about apple making illigal file sharing even easyer,
Please exscuse my grammer, I am a science major, e-nough said... but the reality here, is apple is a good guy in my book, they seem to be more of a victim to the pc trends... here are some examples of how this is an outragous claim;
I buy a cd, i download to windows, and it converts it to .wm , I download to itunes, it remails in whatever format it came...

I grab a wirless card for my laptop (it doesnt work in my mac, just my gateway... pc only card, however my itunes music ports from my dell and my mbp

I have more but i think you get the point, and I might be starting to ramble, sorry...