Canon EOS 400D

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Give it up man, you really are pathetic. I try and leave this discussion on a high note and you can't help yourself, you just gotta get the last word in don't you?

I'm not going to try and explain anything else about this to you, it's obvious that you have got your Canon "L" series blinders on so it's completely pointless. I'd only suggest that if you truly are wanting to make a living shooting photography that you learn a thing or two about what it takes to make an exceptional image. Hate to break it to you but a full frame sensor isn't on the list. If you try and argue that point we'll all know just how many grains of salt to take your opinions with!

and with that I'm out, at least with this thread. I've suffered enough headaches for now.

SLC
 
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Give it up man, you really are pathetic. I try and leave this discussion on a high note and you can't help yourself, you just gotta get the last word in don't you?

I'm not going to try and explain anything else about this to you, it's obvious that you have got your Canon "L" series blinders on so it's completely pointless. I'd only suggest that if you truly are wanting to make a living shooting photography that you learn a thing or two about what it takes to make an exceptional image. Hate to break it to you but a full frame sensor isn't on the list. If you try and argue that point we'll all know just how many grains of salt to take your opinions with!

and with that I'm out, at least with this thread. I've suffered enough headaches for now.

SLC

Now you stoop to insulting people and personal opinions over facts.

take a FF vs. a 2.0 crop. put 12 mp on both and see which one nets you better IQ. Smaller sensors + more pixels = more noise.
 
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We weren't talking about 2.0 crop cameras. At least I wasn't, I know you were trying to throw Olympus in there.

Just one more thing. I'm a member of another message board that is for por-photographers. These guys know their stuff, and they aren't biased like you, even though most are using Canon and Nikon. Many of them are recommending the K10D over the XTi or D80 and even over the D200 or 30D. The one thing that they always point out about the 5D and the 1D's is that they have a greater pixel density than most aps-c dslr's.

Think about it, pack 22 million pixels into a sensor that is only 50% larger than a 1.5 crop sensor like the K10D or XTi or D80. It would be the same pixel density as a 15 megapixel APS-C sensor. The 5D and the 1D's that are 12 and less have a lesser density, but not by much. and the 6 MP DSLR's have those ones beat. The way they explain it, (and you can argue if you want) is that having less pixels shoehorned into a sensor allows them to be larger. And when the pixels are larger they give you better low ISO performance. Yes the $$$ canons are good at high ISO but not so much better that this aspect makes them worth the extra $$$. The only reason they use the FF cameras is because they shoot landscapes mostly and appreciate the wide angle lenses. They all freely admit that they don't really need the higher ISO settings as much as you'd think and that if there were wider lenses for aps-c they'd be using one of them.

SLC
 
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SLC Flyfishing is right. I am a Canon user too so I'm not just fighting for Pentax. All modern DSLRs are quite impressive and each just as capable as the next for producing amazing professional images. You can give a good photographer a Nikon D40 ($499) and a crappy photographer a Canon EOS 1Ds Mark III ($7999) and the guy with a D40 can make images that are ten thousand times better. It all depends on the user. I say go to a camera store, hold all of the cameras in your price range(rule out ones missing features you as a user HAVE to have and take into account lens prices and a memory card), and pick whatever feels right in your hands. Good luck, and enjoy.
 
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Thank's Rowe2try, finally another sensible photographer who hasn't been blinded by all the latest gigapixel marketing scheme. I'll second that recommendation, get the camera you like (what ever that is) and just go out and use it. Don't get suckered into buying anything you aren't fully and completely happy with just because someone tells you it isn't as good as something else. All DSLR's today are made very well, and they all are going to be capable of giving you pro results if you actually learn how to use them. Save your money on the camera body and sped the most you can justify spending on good lenses.

SLC
 
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No problem, I may use a Canon myself but I don't see why people find the need to religiously support their brand name. Happy Shooting.
 
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I'm not the one pulling my hair out at the roots because some one disagrees that Pentax isn't the superior brand. That is how this was started...if you didn't notice SLC's first post were about all the "lies" being told and accusing people.

As far as I know, he hasn't posted up any proof to back up his statements.

There are Nikon guys that were the same way, religiously swearing off FF cameras as useless gimics...until Nikon just announced their first FF camera and then they were swooning all over them.

The point is, the Pentax 10D is not the best camera out there as you claim. I can show you som hasselblads that will blow it away.

User skill factors into photography a ton, but having a camera that will allow you to use that skill is a must. If I'm going to be shooting for mainly printing 20x30 prints, you're telling me I want a 6mp rebel? Or if I'm shooting sporting events where speed matters, I want a 5fps dslr. Or if I'm shooting at dark venues like concerts, good high ISO performance and a fast high quality lens won't matter?
 
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I didn't say that. I said each are just as capable but I also said that one should rule out cameras that do not have features that they need as a user. Everything you mentioned I would call a specialty feature. You want sports? Get a fast camera, you want large prints? get a high MP camera. If you want an average camera to share memories in high quality, or to take artistic photographs for a website, then don't worry, at that point it really doesn't matter what you get, the whole market is good. You have to get what fits your needs but it doesn't make any camera better than another.

Also, throwing the Blad card out is stupid, of course a 32 MP Professional Medium format that costs as much as a car will blow a $900 Pro-sumer Pentax out of the water, what did you prove in saying that? Look, there are no super "better-than-everything" cameras and there are no monstrosities of cameras that are the lowest of the low. there are only steps. On the first step, it is consumer, on the 2nd step, high end consumer, then prosumer, and professional (then another being high end professional like Hasselblad and Leica). all cameras on each "step" are just as capable as everything in that step and generally compared to everything else, it will still find balance some way regardless of step(you have to factor price too).

I only read the first 3 posts from each of you in the argument, one makes a point very early on and generally tends to support that same comment throughout just worded differently. (reminds me, I meant to include that you were right that lens-based stabilization is "better" at what it does, the downside being cost and in-body IS working with all lenses (just not as well).)
 
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Look Villageidiot (stops and wonders how he could have ever come up with that name) My first post said that I think that the K10D is the best camera in the sub $1000 category. This whole thread was supposed to be about the 400D or any other camera that people think is worth looking at. I said that the K10D has in camera IS (which the OP said he would appreciate) and that I recommended it. You obviously can't handle that, I don't know why.

You start to post rebuttals to the claims I made about the K10D; why? You had no clue what half the things I was referring to (the in camera RAW conversion) claiming all cameras can do that. When I finally get it through you head what in camera RAW conversion is you blow it off like it's nothing important (a likely response at this point in an argument.) maybe it is for you maybe it isn't for others. It's saved my life a few times with regard to being able to free up space on my mem-card. Still I'm wondering why you care so much that I suggested a Pentax.

I could care less what you or anyone else shoot with. I could care less about whatever whizz-bang feature your chosen camera has, it doesn't affect my shooting. I still make money with my Pentax, enough to get me through college. I submitted my portfolio to the software review site I write for, they forwarded it to Adobe and I got $4000 worth of free software to evaluate and write about, so I'm thinking that this "inferior" camera i've got is probably just as good as anyone else's.

On my other forum (for a national photography magazine) there are at least 5 or 6 professionals using Canons who, have publicly declared that if they weren't already heavily invested in Canon lenses they would be using the Pentax K10D. These guys are using your EOD 1Ds II "Holy Grail" camera and they still see that there is something special about the K10D. Another is the resident Photoshop expert and retired professional photographer who says the same thing about his equipment. And he has given up entirely on promoting Canons in the sub $1000 category. Pentax doesn't even have a camera above $1000 right now, the 50 MP 645 digital should be out by 2008 but that's going to take your Hasselblads on, not the 1Ds III's, it's a medium format camera, ever heard of the original Pentax 645? it's legendary to those of us who are familiar with things other than Canon.

Again just to make sure you know (since I notice that you need things explained to you more than once) I said that I think that the K10D is the best sub $1000 camera available. I even think it's better than the 30D and the D200, but these are my personal opinions. I've backed up every claim I've made, but you aren't happy with my claims so no amount of further banter is going to help you see the light.

That's all I can stand to take from you, I've got another headache now and I'm going out to shoot instead of causing myself any further discomfort.

P.S. all my hair is still intact. I pulled none of it out, and the only thing I was ever frustrated with was you and your stubbornness to see the truth.

Taken from my other forum where I asked the Canon users why they needed full frame cameras: (And this was taken from one of those Canon Pros I mentioned) Me asking the question, the Pro answering.)

"If not then why all the clamor for a FF camera besides the wide angle aspect?"

A clamor? Not so sure about that....

A full frame camera offers a brighter viewfinder and shallower DOF with the right lenses.
Many say that FF cameras produce less noise and better quality images, but that's still debatable, IMO.
Others want the lenses produced for FF film SLRs to work the same with their DSLRs. I prefer how the 'cropped' cameras use the best part of the lenses.

When all is said and done, the proof is in the final print. When one compares a print from a FF camera next to one from a 'cropped' camera, I really doubt whether anyone would be able to distinguish between them.

Of course, if I spent $3000+ on a camera, I would hotly dispute that point!
 
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On my other forum (for a national photography magazine) there are at least 5 or 6 professionals using Canons who, have publicly declared that if they weren't already heavily invested in Canon lenses they would be using the Pentax K10D.

Look up Benjamin Kanarek. He is a professional fashion photographer in France. He traded a Canon 30D with a Grip and an array of L series Canon lenses for a Pentax K10D and a slew of lenses. Why? He wanted to win a bet against his friend so he bought all the equipment, found he liked it more, and retired his Canon gear. It really is all about personal taste.

Pics taken by Kanarek:

http://www.benjaminkanarek.com/
http://www.pentax.fr/_fr/photo/photographes.php?photo&photographes
http://www.pressbook.com/homebook.asp?langue_id=2&owner_id=5144
http://anashcreation.com/thenashgallery/BenjaminKanarek?page=1
 
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You guys need to stop fighting.

Village Idiot always plays devil's advocate. (Which I find very refreshing in an environment where people are more loyal to their Mac computers than they would be to some family members). His posts may be inflammatory, but he writes articulately, comes off as intelligent, and usually makes some good points. That said, this thread is becoming an unnecessary argument over every little detail. In fact, Pentax and Canon could copy each of your respective posts for their next advertising/marketing campaign. Plain and simple: both cameras are nice.

I don't want to leave SLC out, as he makes some equally well thought out and articulated arguments. But again, you have both gotten to the point where you are splitting hairs.

For the record, I have a Pentax iST-DL that I bought a little over a year ago (which was the precursor to the K100). Why did I choose it? Well, after rebates and promotions, I got the camera for a little over $350. I scored a $400 Pentax telephoto lens at a Ritz closeout for $90. All in all, I got a GREAT camera for less than $500 (and this was over a year ago, so factor in tech advancement and price decreases). It takes really nice pictures, and it is MUCH more fun to use than my old point-and-shoot. (I'm a huge fan of being able to adjust the aperture and depth of field). In fact, I'm going to make one of those DIY light tents this weekend.

Anyway, for the money I spent, I am very happy. I could have purchased the Rebel during the same promotion, but it would have been $200 more. After reading reviews, there weren't many differences between the two, and certainly not enough to justify the price difference.

Anyway, a bit off track, but those are my thoughts.
 

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