How useful were computers before internet?

simonvee said:

Most of the time learning in the course was from a 400 year old accounting system. Manually writing what were credits and what were debits. Not very useful in the real world. In the real world, we use computers to do all that.

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That's not what I meant by the "real world". Of course you have to learn how to do it by hand. If you don't understand the logic of how the software works and indeed the fundamental principles of accounting, then you are little more than a button pusher. I'm talking about learning to use the software... and not just accounting software.... that is used business-wide. I should probably add that I have never actually worked as an accountant (the job market crashed when I graduated in 1990, so my career took another path entirely), and I should also acknowledge that the tools have certainly changed dramatically between 1990 and the mid-2000's. We didn't even have QuickBooks and the like when I was in school. But I can't even wrap my head around someone still using projectors with transparencies in the mid-2000's. And I'm more put off by your complete lack of imagination and thinking that computers weren't good for anything till recently. You seem to be engaging in some form of ageism here.

lclev said:

I can remember when google entered into the search world getting messages from them say I did not need to enter in the search parameters anymore as they were doing that for me. I had a hard time letting that go as I was sure they did not know exactly what I was looking for. I occasionally even today, will find myself having a flashback and entering "AND, NOT, OR" to a request. I have noticed they quit with the "You don't need to do that - we know!" messages.

Lisa

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Glad to know that I'm not the only one that does that now and then, In fact it annoys me when adding those operators doesn't improve/narrow the results. I still remember the early engines like Locos and infoseek among others.

cwa107 said:

CLIP... I also started to get into Bulletin Board Systems. A friend of mine had a rather large one with 3 lines as I recall and there were a number of others within the local exchange. I spent a vast amount of time in discussion threads on the BBS as well as chatting with the others who were online (there was one BBS in particular that had some crazy amount of lines, like 20+). I was also an assistant sysop on one BBS, so I spent a good amount of time going through PD software and making sure it was virus-free and useful content.

The Internet killed the BBS world in short order, but in many ways, it was more fun than today. Definitely required a lot more problem-solving skill than we use today, which is probably why I'm in the career I'm in now.

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I ran the Heath/Zenith users group BBS in the Washington, DC area from my home in Fairfax, VA. We had eight lines with modems. I actually got a visit from the local police who thought I was running a bookie parlor. I showed them the setup and they seemed satisfied. It was more fun because all the users were geeks and shared the passion for the systems. Today's Internet user is basically an appliance operator who has no concept of what is going on under the covers.

Lifeisabeach said:

That's not what I meant by the "real world". Of course you have to learn how to do it by hand. If you don't understand the logic of how the software works and indeed the fundamental principles of accounting, then you are little more than a button pusher. I'm talking about learning to use the software... and not just accounting software.... that is used business-wide. I should probably add that I have never actually worked as an accountant (the job market crashed when I graduated in 1990, so my career took another path entirely), and I should also acknowledge that the tools have certainly changed dramatically between 1990 and the mid-2000's. We didn't even have QuickBooks and the like when I was in school. But I can't even wrap my head around someone still using projectors with transparencies in the mid-2000's. And I'm more put off by your complete lack of imagination and thinking that computers weren't good for anything till recently. You seem to be engaging in some form of ageism here.

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I understand now how computers, prior to the internet, were much more capable than my initial knowledge. E.g. 1) Boolean to 'Google and 2) BBS to share files with peers.

From another frame of reference, the peers that you share your files with on BBS must also be reasonably computer savvy in order to use it. This filters the amount of information available for peers compared to the 'galactic' amount of information found on the modern internet. Kids today can even contribute information found on the internet.

I didn't say I used projectors with transparencies in the mid-2000's. If I was to choose between carrying around a 4kg laptop in the 80's or choose transparency papers, I would choose the latter.

Nevertheless, BBS and Boolean were very useful prior to the internet. Don't take it the wrong way.

Means of transportation back in the medieval times did exactly the same as today if you want to look at it that way. Donkey vs Porsche Cayenne and Viking Ship vs Jumbo Jet. Both gets us from point A to point B but I sure don't want to row my a** off on the viking ship.

simonvee said:

From another frame of reference, the peers that you share your files with on BBS must also be reasonably computer savvy in order to use it. This filters the amount of information available for peers compared to the 'galactic' amount of information found on the modern internet. Kids today can even contribute information found on the internet.

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Maybe somewhat savvy, but kids today aren't nearly as savvy as they think they are. And letting kids contribute information to the internet? Man, just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it true! People are contributing a LOT of misinformation to the internet.

I didn't say I used projectors with transparencies in the mid-2000's. If I was to choose between carrying around a 4kg laptop in the 80's or choose transparency papers, I would choose the latter.

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LOL! You mean you didn't tote your projector around? LOL! No one toted laptops around either. You put your presentation on a floppy disk and used the computer and projector that was available in the classroom. LOL! Actually in most of my classes, the instructors used slides and transparencies, but there were a couple that used a computer and projector. It wasn't exactly a novelty at the time, but it was slowly growing into more common use.

Nevertheless, BBS and Boolean were very useful prior to the internet. Don't take it the wrong way.

Means of transportation back in the medieval times did exactly the same as today if you want to look at it that way. Donkey vs Porsche Cayenne and Viking Ship vs Jumbo Jet. Both gets us from point A to point B but I sure don't want to row my a** off on the viking ship.

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Hardly anyone would go back to the old days of things, but in the old days, it was cutting edge. You really are engaging in some ageism here.

Maybe somewhat savvy, but kids today aren't nearly as savvy as they think they are. And letting kids contribute information to the internet? Man, just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it true! People are contributing a LOT of misinformation to the internet.

Exactly, I am simply saying that people DO NOT need to be computer savvy to post 'information' on the internet. By information, it could be pictures, videos, reviews...and even official academic documents from scholars. Not necessarily 'scientific data' they made up. Likewise, sharing information on BBS was by nature, shared information, not always facts.


LOL! You mean you didn't tote your projector around? LOL! No one toted laptops around either. You put your presentation on a floppy disk and used the computer and projector that was available in the classroom. LOL! Actually in most of my classes, the instructors used slides and transparencies, but there were a couple that used a computer and projector. It wasn't exactly a novelty at the time, but it was slowly growing into more common use.

I might like to add I was not in university in the 80's and I am not certain if a good majority of classrooms had computers compared to transparency projectors. Nevertheless, perhaps bringing a floppy disk if the classroom had a computer was a good idea. It was cutting edge technology for sure.

Hardly anyone would go back to the old days of things, but in the old days, it was cutting edge. You really are engaging in some ageism here.

ageism
eɪdʒɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: ageism; noun: agism

prejudice or discrimination on the grounds of a person's age.


No sir, I assure you I am not. It would be silly to post up a rant about discriminating someone's age or any innate facets about them. Who doesn't age?!

Funny that the only use for a computer now (from the OPs point of view), is to consume media someone else has produced.

There was always work to do; one used the tools one had available, or invented new ones. How did we edit newspaper copy before computers? PAINFULLY SLOWLY.

I remember sending off a manuscript to a UK magazine for a lengthy piece I wrote. Cost "a fortune" to mail it (this was post-computers but pre-cheap faxing and obviously pre-Internet). Waited a couple-three weeks, got the manuscript back with markups from the editor. Made the requested changes, called him on the phone to clarify a few points (luckily the time difference meant that I could call during the "cheap" international rate time -- not really very cheap!), and mailed a fresh printout. Some intern probably hand-typed it into whatever system they used to set copy on the Linotype or whatever!

Back then, magazines routinely worked six months or more in advance of publication because of this sort of issue. But it got done much the same way it's done now, only sending documents/files around is instant rather than the bottleneck in the process. This allows us to do more and faster, but the actual work itself hasn't changed all that much in this particular instance.

Friend of mine published a book today on iTunes and Kindle. Now he is quite experienced at this, this being the third book in the series, but it took him eight weeks, start to finish. Eight weeks from first outlining, through interviews (this is a non-fiction how-to book), photos/artwork, typesetting/design, an emergency rewrite of half the book (no exaggeration -- 30K words rewritten in a 61K word book!), and upload to Apple and Amazon.

Another book this fellow is doing -- a big, expensive, coffee-table type reference work (over 100K words) that took more than a year just to write, and where artwork makes up as much space as the text if not more -- that is being handled by a traditional publisher is now in its third year of production overall, and there's still no firm publication date.

We live in interesting times ...

Dysfunction said:

Funny that the only use for a computer now (from the OPs point of view), is to consume media someone else has produced.

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When did I say that?

simonvee said:

When did I say that?

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You didn't exactly but you implied it with the title and follow up post content. I don't think that was your intent, just to get the conversation started.

Granted the bulk of the population today uses computers for media consumption. For those of us using them for other ventures, the internet enhances our work flow.

What I mean is if I am creating materials for an upcoming event, I can use the internet to send them to a co-worker who is collaborating on the same project but is located in another part of the state. And there are many more examples.

But to your original post as to what we did before. I started teaching computers to high school students in the early 80's . It was all basic programming and DOS. Later we added word processing, spreadsheets and databases using Lotus Works and WordPerfect. Initially, no internet was available unless you were at a university and even that was very limited.

In the late '70's, the entire school district's then over 2000 students' data was kept on 5-1/4" floppy disks that had to be turned over to read the back side. The computer was an Apple II daisy chained to 5 stacked floppy disk drives. The disks were then sent to the State Department for data collection. I remember asking why we needed to tell the state government which kids were in 4-H or boy/girl scouts. Before I retired I didn't even question all they required us to collect.

Lisa

I gotta say, anyone who is blowing off even basic word processing on those early computers (my first was the venerable Apple IIe) has never had to use a typewriter to format a 12 page term paper using MLA footnotes.

Just the word processor ability made the purchase of the Apple IIe worth every nickle. Add in the ability to run a household budget, and other "basic" humdrum applications which did away with the old paper-and-pen methods and it was a practical miracle.

I spent a couple years doing work-study for FWP digitizing wildlife habitat maps on a MPM system. Wrote the training manual using Word Star.

Then came the Mac, with desktop publishing, image manipulation, etc. All came before the internet, and still managed to revolutionize innumerable industries, as well as giving home-workers the ability to match high-level pros who were still using pre-computerized methods.

In short, yes, computers were still miracle machines in data manipulation long before the internet.

As a side note... corporations were using computers in a big way on LAN's long before they had internet. Heck, I worked in automotive and the office staff didn't get internet until 2000. Everything got done just the same, from designing vehicles, payroll, calculating finance and risk, exchanging design data on 4mm, 8mm and DLT tapes via snail mail, and the ever popular direct AT modem connections from dedicated server to dedicated server.

I did a huge amount with computers BI (before Internet), both at home and work. Used mainframes and terminals for research and schoolwork at university. Wrote a bookkeeping database in RBase for our personal use. Used WordPerfect then Corel along with RBase then Access and Lotus 123 spreadsheets for research databases and papers. Used early versions of SPSS and RefWorks. Wrote letters and Christmas updates to send by snail mail. My first personal computer was an IBM 8088. My first laptop cost $7k! This was just before the first Workd Wide Web boards started happening, and at first they were very rudimentary. For years in the early days only enthusiasts were online, and connecting was a chore. When I made presentations i had to mail then away to them back as 35 mm slides.

I also got started on computers before the internet and didn't actually visit my first website until eight years later. Initially, the concept of the internet intrigued me, and there are plenty of opportunities it gives us for information, business, discussion, even dating...but I often do pine for the pre-internet days of computing.

For starters, a lot of people tend to think computers are worthless if they don't go online. I have several computers that I either don't take online or only connect sparingly. Most are older, of course, but they manage to continue to be productive for me.

This is because there is quite a bit of software you can actually use offline. I know a lot of people point out word processing, which is definitely the number one use for offline computers, but don't forget graphics programs, spreadsheets, audio and video editing software, games, and programming tools.

You younger folks may not believe it, but we got plenty of work done on those systems. They can still be very useful provided you don't have to email any work, don't rely on the cloud, don't need any sort of messaging or video conferencing software, and don't care about visiting random websites.

I still use offline computers with the children I work with. They are quite old now (it's a "lab" of Classics, SEs, LCs, an early PowerBook, and a IIci) but the programs on there are actually superior to most newer educational programs I have tried. For one thing, they're customizable, often more so than the "fixed" nature of apps or online tools. They are also more polished. Yes, the graphics are simple, but if the main objective is to learn, we don't need flashy animation or distracting videos. There's no annoying music, no ads popping up, no passwords required, no worries if a connection goes down, and no concerns about a student clicking on some other website, either accidentally or on purpose.

A lot of the students, all of whom have never known a time without the internet, will often ask me how they can get online on the computers. I simply tell them that these computers don't go online and that they have all of their programs (they sometimes will call a program a "website") already on them. Sometimes, it takes them a little while to catch on to the concept, yet I've found kids continue to enjoy classics like Word Munchers, OutNumbered, Math Blaster, Midnight Rescue, Kid Pix, and others from the late 80s/early 90s. In fact, they soon become attached to these programs and WANT To learn with them!!!

On an unrelated note, it's great to see the kids figure out the menu bars on the old computers. They all will do a single click and expect them to stay down like they do on any modern computer--yet they all figure out you have to hold down the mouse button on their own after a little trial and error.

Back to the original point, yes, computers are still valuable without the internet depending on what you use them for. This also goes to show that an older computer can sometimes still be extremely useful as long as the programs used with it continue to be relevant to the application. I know there are a few other educators who continue to swear by older machines (I actually know one who still uses a IIGS in her classroom!) which cannot go online.

On a final note, I should say that I don't use old, offline-only computers exclusively with my tutoring business. Some of the older kids do get to use a connected laptop to do research, and I conduct online sessions from modern hardware. My business also maintains a website and does plenty of correspondence by email and text (yes, the parents have all taken to text, which works great since the voicemail feature of the iPhone is so clunky--even the old tape-based answering machine my family had in the 80s worked better). Still, the offline computers are actually the biggest difference makers when it comes to supplementing education with technology, and it's all because of the continued use of software that will never require a connection--which is the key in determining if any computer is still valuable offline.

Oh man! Sometimes I miss the pre-Internet days! I got in a little late to the bandwagon vs other technical types but still had AOL circa 1995 or so.

Used to transport data back and forth from school on 1.4 MB diskettes. I had a whole box of 'em and we had to have at least one for computer class (the school actually issued them to us!).

I also had a serial cable that connected to the serial ports on two computers (commonly used by the printer but also some other stuff). This allowed the computers to "talk" to each other and you could send data...very quickly compared to dial-up internet! I used this to copy information between my desktop PC and my Compaq laptop (Windows 95, 1 GB HD, 16 MB RAM...it couldn't run an SNES emulator at full speed LOL!)

Games - well this was the glorious age of mail order gaming and shareware discs. The computer magazines and other sources had tons and tons of games on shareware and you generally got the whole game but usually only the first ten levels or so. I remember saving up and sending into Apogee for the full Wolfenstein floppies. It was like $60! But that game was amazing

Groliers Multimedia Encyclopedia - Once CD-ROM drives became common in the early 90s Groliers and others like Encarta were all the rage. It wasn't to different from Wikipedia is now. You'd search a topic and the CD usually had music and artwork to go along with the articles. I did all my school research that way.

Really the only thing that wasn't easy to replicate without an internet connection was talking to people. But I actually used a landline phone for that, heh.

For me the biggest difference now is the computer is also my entertainment hub since I do movies, music, TV, etc. with it. In the early/mid 90s I definitely couldn't do that stuff. IIRC it was as late as 2004-2005 where you were still needing to buy extra components if you really wanted a rockstar media computer (though at that point it was because 1080p and bluray cost quite a bit more than what else was being used)