Scroll button too small in Yosemite--can I make it larger?

chemist · Jun 12, 2015

Scroll button too narrow in Yosemite--can I make it wider?

The attached pic shows actual-size screenshots of the same program (Entourage) in Snow Leopard (top) and Yosemite (bottom) (the Snow Leopard view looks expanded because the fonts are larger). The scroll button created by Yosemite is a narrow, low-contrast, gray-on-gray object. By contrast, the one in Snow Leopard is wide and brightly colored, making it that much easier to grab with a mouse cursor. Likewise, the scroll bar is narrower in Yosemite. Both work, but with Yosemite it takes just that extra bit of concentration to grab and use it, because it’s smaller and harder to see. If this were a function I used rarely, it wouldn’t matter. But I use scrolling a lot, and having to repeatedly exert that extra bit of concentration makes the computer somewhat less fluid to use. Yes, I can increase the contrast in Accessibility, but my primary complaint is that it has lost its width and its color.

[N.B.: these scroll buttons are created by the OS, not the app, so it doesn't matter that I've used Entourage rather than, say, Safari, as an example -- the effect is system-wide; I just used Entourage b/c I can no longer run SL, and that's the only app for which I have a screenshot, in SL, that shows the scroll bar.]

So: Are there any settings I could change, or any aftermarket apps I could buy, that would make this aspect of Yosemite's interface more Snow-Leopard-like? [Even better, is there any way to alter Yosemite's very flat design, making screen elements more 3D (like the blue scroll button seen in SL)?]

As an aside, I think I understand why Apple is doing this — they’re moving away from the mouse, and more towards trackpads and touchscreens, in which case you scroll by swiping, and thus the scroll bar transitions from being an active UI element to merely an indicator. This is part of a broader movement by Apple away from focusing on power users and content creators, and more towards content consumers. In addition, I see why Apple has chosen to have the scroll button be a light gray, so that it can change to a dark gray when you activate it (though this doesn’t explain why Apple no longer makes use of color, which is a great way to create visual distinction). But none of this helps me. You could say I’m merely trying to follow Steve Jobs' famous dictum, which is that people shouldn’t have to adjust to fit computers, but rather computers should adjust to fit people.

Screen Shot 2015-06-12 at 6.01.49 PM.png

Gabrielc · Jun 15, 2015

Hi, yes, it is a bit narrower than Snow but if you move the pointer closer the scroll bar, the scroll bar increases its width a little bit in order it is easier to grab.

But honestly I don't waste time in pointing the scroll bar. Why don't you use your fingers over the mouse for the scrolling? did you try it?
With almighty mouse you can scroll up or down with your finger and you can do it in any place inside the windows or folder.

chemist · Jun 16, 2015

What system are you using? On 10.10.3, I've never seen the the scroll bars created by the OS (which are what you see at the side of every application window) change in width. The only activity I've seen is that the button darkens whens you click on it. I've only seen the behavior you describe on the scroll bars that Facebook creates for internal scrolling for sub-windows within its page. And those are, indeed, wider, indicating that FB agrees with me. [See attached pic, Yosemite's scroll bar on R, FB's scroll bar just to the left of it.] I also talked to an Apple support rep, and she agreed that providing the option (say, in Accessibility) for a wider bar (after all, they offer the ability to re-size the cursor) would be a good idea, and thus will be mentioning it at the next staff meeting -- indeed, she said she's also noticed the extra effort created by the narrower scroll bar herself.

Not sure what you mean by "fingers over the mouse." I'm guessing you're referring to the Magic Mouse, which has a trackpad-like surface. The problem is I don't want to give up the wonderful functionality of my five-button mouse: the center button activates the App Switcher, allowing seamless transitions among applications, and the left and right side buttons do back-and-forth web navigation in Safari and Chrome, and everywhere else are set to move the active window to fill the left or right half of the screen, thus making it nearly effortless to arrange windows/documents side-by-side. In addition, this is the only mouse that has ever fit my hand and wrist perfectly (I've tried others); I suspect that wouldn't be the case with the Magic Mouse. Finally, I've heard complaints it's so big, and its surface friction is so high, that it is hard to drag around in the normal mouse manner. [The latter may be incorrect, but -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- I'm pretty sure it's not a 5-button mouse.]

Gabrielc · Jun 16, 2015

chemist said:
What system are you using? On 10.10.3, I've never seen the the scroll bars created by the OS (which are what you see at the side of every application window) change in width. The only activity I've seen is that the button darkens whens you click on it. I've only seen the behavior you describe on the scroll bars that Facebook creates for internal scrolling for sub-windows within its page. And those are, indeed, wider, indicating that FB agrees with me. [See attached pic, Yosemite's scroll bar on R, FB's scroll bar just to the left of it.] I also talked to an Apple support rep, and she agreed that providing the option (say, in Accessibility) for a wider bar (after all, they offer the ability to re-size the cursor) would be a good idea, and thus will be mentioning it at the next staff meeting -- indeed, she said she's also noticed the extra effort created by the narrower scroll bar herself.

Not sure what you mean by "fingers over the mouse." I'm guessing you're referring to the Magic Mouse, which has a trackpad-like surface. The problem is I don't want to give up the wonderful functionality of my five-button mouse: the center button activates the App Switcher, allowing seamless transitions among applications, and the left and right side buttons do back-and-forth web navigation in Safari and Chrome, and everywhere else are set to move the active window to fill the left or right half of the screen, thus making it nearly effortless to arrange windows/documents side-by-side. In addition, this is the only mouse that has ever fit my hand and wrist perfectly (I've tried others); I suspect that wouldn't be the case with the Magic Mouse. Finally, I've heard complaints it's so big, and its surface friction is so high, that it is hard to drag around in the normal mouse manner. [The latter may be incorrect, but -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- I'm pretty sure it's not a 5-button mouse.]

Yes, sorry I meant the Magic Mouse, the question is if it really worth using the scroll to switch app instead using it for scrolling? I use few app at the same time but I switch them by pressing CMD + TAB which is very fast (left to right) and if you want this on reverse (right to left) you have to press CMD + Tab and then press SHIFT, and I keep the mouse pad for scrolling (not only up and down but left and right as well).

Yes, I double checked and Yosemite (10.10.3) if you put quite slow the pointer beside the grey bar it will expand a little bit.

Have a try and think over re.buttons configuration. I work with graphics and Magic Mouse is absolutely stunning and your hand adapts it very quick, in my case, every remote time I have to use a Microso--- one (to use Unreal game) I feel it very big and I fell myself as a caveman.

The only problem I had with this mouse was with the bluetooth, every time I had to change batteries I use to have a problem in reconnecting, then I purchased Mobee Magic Charger, it solved the problem for a few months (because I never had to turn off the mouse anymore), but the Mobee batteries is done with a very cheap plastic material so it made the mouse stopped working because the base of the mouse, using Mobee batteries, got disconnected very often. To solve this I had to cut a little piece of paper to keep the batteries held, but this defo was not the solution....

So I got ride of Mobee and came back using standard batteries, and got ride of the mouse's batteries cover as well (so the 2 batteries are visible now if I turn over the mouse), I never had a problem again so far. Each time I change batteries (in Snow) and now in Yosemite, the OS recognise the mouse immediately.

chemist · Jun 16, 2015

Gabrielc said:
Yes, sorry I meant the Magic Mouse, the question is if it really worth using the scroll to switch app instead using it for scrolling? I use few app at the same time but I switch them by pressing CMD + TAB which is very fast (left to right) and if you want this on reverse (right to left) you have to press CMD + Tab and then press SHIFT, and I keep the mouse pad for scrolling (not only up and down but left and right as well).....

Thanks for the tips on using the Magic Mouse. Sounds like it would be interesting to try. I did like your name for it, though ... the "almighty mouse" .... sounded like one could start a religion around it (yes, I know that was a typo

).

I'm familiar with cmd-tab (I used it to set up a voice activation for the app switcher), but I prefer using the middle (scroll) button on the the mouse, particularly if I have a lot of apps (say, 12) open. In that case it's easier to just hold down the middle button, move the cursor to the new app I want, then release, rather than having to tab through the whole list. In addition, if I quickly click and release the scroll button, it will move me back and forth between the current and last active app. You can also do this with cmd-tab, but (at least for me) it's more awkward and thus not as quick.

In addition, what about the left and right side buttons -- isn't the Magic Mouse also missing those?

Gabrielc said:
Yes, I double checked and Yosemite (10.10.3) if you put quite slow the pointer beside the grey bar it will expand a little bit.

I carefully examined this both in the retina display on my MBP, and on my 24" 1920 x 1200 external monitor, and I'm definitely not seeing the effect you describe. On the latter, with a magnifying glass, I can clearly see the individual columns of pixels*, and thus can thus confirm that the elongated gray button does not expand by even a single column of pixels, on either side, when the cursor approaches, thus confirming there is no size change. What I do notice is that, if the scroll bar is system-defined (i.e., excepting those created by certain sites, like FB's), and scrolls the entire window (e.g., the one at the right of Safari), the button doesn't darken when you click on it; but if it scrolls only within the window (e.g., in the two scroll bars in Finder, one for the sidebar and one for the file/folder list), then it does darken.

Could it be there's some setting on your machine that's different from mine that is causing you to get widening? And could you tell me if the widening behavior you see is consistent (or if it behaves differently for whole-window scroll bars vs. sub-window scroll bars, like the darkening behavior), and which apps you see it in? Finally, do you also get the darkening behavior I describe?

Also, anyone else getting the widening behavior Gabrielc is describing, or the differential darkening behavior I'm describing, in 10.10.3?

*Here are the actual numbers, translating pixel width to size:

Retina display, 15" MBP (15.4", 2880 x 1800), 220.5 ppi:
Yosemite: 16 pixels wide => [16 pixels/(220.5 pixels/inch)] * [25.4 mm/inch] = 1.84 mm
Facebook-defined internal scroll bar: 20 pixels => 2.30 mm
Snow Leopard (calculated): 26 pixels => 3.00 mm

24" 1920 x 1200 external monitor, 94.38 ppi:
Yosemite: 8 pixels => 2.15 mm
Facebook internal scroll bar: 10 pixels => 2.69 mm
Snow Leopard: 13 pixels => 3.50 mm

Given the insignificant amount of extra screen real estate required to increase the scroll bar widths by 2 mm, and given the increase in usability this would provide, it seems remarkable that Apple doesn't offer this as an option (e.g., in Accessibility).

Gabrielc · Jun 16, 2015

chemist said:
Thanks for the tips on using the Magic Mouse. Sounds like it would be interesting to try. I did like your name for it, though ... the "almighty mouse" .... sounded like one could start a religion around it (yes, I know that was a typo ).

I'm familiar with cmd-tab (I used it to set up a voice activation for the app switcher), but I prefer using the middle (scroll) button on the the mouse, particularly if I have a lot of apps (say, 12) open. In that case it's easier to just hold down the middle button, move the cursor to the new app I want, then release, rather than having to tab through the whole list. In addition, if I quickly click and release the scroll button, it will move me back and forth between the current and last active app. You can also do this with cmd-tab, but (at least for me) it's more awkward and thus not as quick.

In addition, what about the left and right side buttons -- isn't the Magic Mouse also missing those?

I carefully examined this both in the retina display on my MBP, and on my 24" 1920 x 1200 external monitor, and I'm definitely not seeing the effect you describe. On the latter, with a magnifying glass, I can clearly see the individual columns of pixels*, and thus can thus confirm that the elongated gray button does not expand by even a single column of pixels, on either side, when the cursor approaches, thus confirming there is no size change. What I do notice is that, if the scroll bar is system-defined (i.e., excepting those created by certain sites, like FB's), and scrolls the entire window (e.g., the one at the right of Safari), the button doesn't darken when you click on it; but if it scrolls only within the window (e.g., in the two scroll bars in Finder, one for the sidebar and one for the file/folder list), then it does darken.

Could it be there's some setting on your machine that's different from mine that is causing you to get widening? And could you tell me if the widening behavior you see is consistent (or if it behaves differently for whole-window scroll bars vs. sub-window scroll bars, like the darkening behavior), and which apps you see it in? Finally, do you also get the darkening behavior I describe?

Also, anyone else getting the widening behavior Gabrielc is describing, or the differential darkening behavior I'm describing, in 10.10.3?

*Here are the actual numbers, translating pixel width to size:

Retina display, 15" MBP (15.4", 2880 x 1800), 220.5 ppi:
Yosemite: 16 pixels wide => [16 pixels/(220.5 pixels/inch)] * [25.4 mm/inch] = 1.84 mm
Facebook-defined internal scroll bar: 20 pixels => 2.30 mm
Snow Leopard (calculated): 26 pixels => 3.00 mm

24" 1920 x 1200 external monitor, 94.38 ppi:
Yosemite: 8 pixels => 2.15 mm
Facebook internal scroll bar: 10 pixels => 2.69 mm
Snow Leopard: 13 pixels => 3.50 mm

Given the insignificant amount of extra screen real estate required to increase the scroll bar widths by 2 mm, and given the increase in usability this would provide, it seems remarkable that Apple doesn't offer this as an option (e.g., in Accessibility).

HI, yes Almighty Mouse does exist, it is the previous version than Magic Mouse (my mistake) I meant Magic Mouse. If you are familiar with lot of buttons on the mouse then this mouse is not for you due it only has left & right plus scroll pad (you have a couple of combinations how to use them but that's it) in fact when I play PC games I use a Micros--- one.

Try this in any folder and see if you get the expanded bar, its width is similar as previous cyan bar.

In order it occurs you have to scroll the page down or up a little bit in order you see the narrow grey bar, then you have to place the pointer in any place of that scroll column (except doing it over the bar)

Then it will depends on how many applications allows this configuration, ie Quark XPress doesn't allow me this, but Safari can.

Hope it helped.

Hey, sorry to ask but why do you need 12 apps opened at the same time and by spending 1 second choosing the app with CMD + Tab could be a nightmare in your day to day work? Are you working in a kind of TV Live Studio or something like that?

chemist · Jun 16, 2015

Gabrielc said:
In order it occurs you have to scroll the page down or up a little bit in order you see the narrow grey bar, then you have to place the pointer in any place of that scroll column (except doing it over the bar)

Then it will depends on how many applications allows this configuration, ie Quark XPress doesn't allow me this, but Safari can.

OK, here's what's going on: In Sys Prefs->General, under "Show Scroll Bars," I have "Always" checked. With this, I don't see the behavior you describe. However, I think you have "When scrolling" checked (is that correct?), for two reasons: First, you said you need to scroll to get the scroll bar to display. Second, when I switch to the latter option, I can get the wider scroll button to display --- but it's very tricky. What I have to do is to hover my cursor over where the scroll bar would appear, and then start scrolling with the scroll wheel of my mouse. Only in this way do I get the wider button. So to get the system to display the wider scroll button, I first have to activate scrolling using my mouse's scroll wheel, which of course defeats the purpose of having the wider scroll button. I'm wondering if my MS 5-button Intellimouse Optical, which exerts low-level control over the system to activate the functionality of its buttons (I have three non-apple kexts on my system, and two are from the MS mouse), might be messing with this bar-widening behavior.

Could you please tell me what your "Show Scroll Bars" setting is in Sys Prefs->General, and try setting this to "Always" and letting me know what you find? Also, when you say you "have to scroll the page down or up a little bit in order [to] see the narrow grey bar," given that you initially don't have the bar, how are you activating scrolling? Are you using the track-pad surface of your Magic Mouse?

As to your last question, it's a bit involved to explain why I sometimes end up with so many open apps, but it does occasionally happen in the normal course of my workflow.

Gabrielc · Jun 17, 2015

chemist said:
OK, here's what's going on: In Sys Prefs->General, under "Show Scroll Bars," I have "Always" checked. With this, I don't see the behavior you describe. However, I think you have "When scrolling" checked (is that correct?), for two reasons: First, you said you need to scroll to get the scroll bar to display. Second, when I switch to the latter option, I can get the wider scroll button to display --- but it's very tricky. What I have to do is to hover my cursor over where the scroll bar would appear, and then start scrolling with the scroll wheel of my mouse. Only in this way do I get the wider button. So to get the system to display the wider scroll button, I first have to activate scrolling using my mouse's scroll wheel, which of course defeats the purpose of having the wider scroll button. I'm wondering if my MS 5-button Intellimouse Optical, which exerts low-level control over the system to activate the functionality of its buttons (I have three non-apple kexts on my system, and two are from the MS mouse), might be messing with this bar-widening behavior.

Could you please tell me what your "Show Scroll Bars" setting is in Sys Prefs->General, and try setting this to "Always" and letting me know what you find? Also, when you say you "have to scroll the page down or up a little bit in order [to] see the narrow grey bar," given that you initially don't have the bar, how are you activating scrolling? Are you using the track-pad surface of your Magic Mouse?

As to your last question, it's a bit involved to explain why I sometimes end up with so many open apps, but it does occasionally happen in the normal course of my workflow.

Yes, in preferences I got "Automatically based...." and it only gets wider in this and "When Scrolling" options. When I select "Always" the scrolling bar is not as wide as the other two option, this is probably an Apple's engineers mistake or a Yosemite glitch because it doesn't make any sense to have different bar widths.

A solution could be to add an extra mouse to activate that scrolling bar (using first 2 options in prefs) and then with your main mouse you can scroll down or up using now the wider bar?

Gabrielc · Jun 17, 2015

chemist said:
OK, here's what's going on: In Sys Prefs->General, under "Show Scroll Bars," I have "Always" checked. With this, I don't see the behavior you describe. However, I think you have "When scrolling" checked (is that correct?), for two reasons: First, you said you need to scroll to get the scroll bar to display. Second, when I switch to the latter option, I can get the wider scroll button to display --- but it's very tricky. What I have to do is to hover my cursor over where the scroll bar would appear, and then start scrolling with the scroll wheel of my mouse. Only in this way do I get the wider button. So to get the system to display the wider scroll button, I first have to activate scrolling using my mouse's scroll wheel, which of course defeats the purpose of having the wider scroll button. I'm wondering if my MS 5-button Intellimouse Optical, which exerts low-level control over the system to activate the functionality of its buttons (I have three non-apple kexts on my system, and two are from the MS mouse), might be messing with this bar-widening behavior.

Could you please tell me what your "Show Scroll Bars" setting is in Sys Prefs->General, and try setting this to "Always" and letting me know what you find? Also, when you say you "have to scroll the page down or up a little bit in order [to] see the narrow grey bar," given that you initially don't have the bar, how are you activating scrolling? Are you using the track-pad surface of your Magic Mouse?

As to your last question, it's a bit involved to explain why I sometimes end up with so many open apps, but it does occasionally happen in the normal course of my workflow.

Hi I found a solution for you (I hope), you have to select any of the first 2 options in Pref/general (Automatic or When scrolling) then to get the wider bar you have to go to the very right edge of the page and activate the bar by pressing cursor key (up or down) 1 time, and here you go, you have the wider bar which is more similar now to previous Snow OS in width.

(you have the arrows keys up and down on the little 6 keys panels as well but they move faster).

In my opinion, yes, this is a glitch or an engineer's mistake, due it is ok to have the narrow bar if you scroll with your mouse but if you need to do it "manually" it automatically should get wider. You could send this issue to Apple, maybe they'll fix it.

Gabrielc · Jun 17, 2015

chemist said:
Thanks for the tips on using the Magic Mouse.

with CMD+Tab there is no need you press the Tab key to go throughout the apps, you can select faster the app you need selecting them with the mouse cursor and release keys, I use to do it sometimes.

Also with Magic Mouse you can switch apps by using the mouse touch pad (2 fingers moved to the right or to the left) but you have to keep your apps in Full Size in order it happens.

chemist · Jun 18, 2015

I think I figured out the rationale for the behavior: Apple's engineers don't like the look of the wider scroll bar -- it's not sleek -- so when the scroll bar is always on they don't allow it to be wide since, under that setting, it would always be wide. Instead, they only allow it to be wide under settings where it would only have that appearance temporarily.

I appreciate your making the effort to offer suggestions on how I might make it wide for my workflow. Unfortunately, at least for me, they're going in the wrong direction, since the reason I wanted the wider bar was to reduce the amount of effort and focus needed to grab it. Having to actually turn it into a two-step process would make the effort greater still -- and I would have to keep doing that extra step repeatedly, since (at least on my machine) the bar doesn't stay wide.

What I really need is a Terminal command to change the width of the bar permanently. Any suggestions on which of the various Mac forums would be most likely to have members with this sort of technical expertise?