Issue with transferring files from an external NTFS drive.

I’m a video editor and have been given an NTFS formatted hard drive with 522.93 GB of media. Using a simple drag and drop I’ve tried copying all of this onto a Mac OS Extended (Journaled) drive.

For what has been transferred all seems to be good, except that “get info” tells me that the amount of data transferred is only 452.9 GB. So thats about a 70GB difference. Can someone explain and tell me what I need to do differently. Thank you

Could be a couple of reasons for the difference. If the media is a lot of smaller files, then the simplest reason could be that on the NTFS drive those small files had a lot of extra space taken up because of the empty space taken to force the files to fill blocks into which the NTFS was formatted. When the files were transferred to OS X, only the data was moved, not the empty space, and since OS X doesn't have large empty spaces by design, the same data took less space. In any event, if you used OS X to copy the files and the number of files is the same, then you most likely got them all.

I agree with Jake. What he described is called drive fragmentation - and it probably is fragmented. Those bits of space are all over the place. Also there will be a hidden trash file on the NTFS. If any previous files were deleted they would be in the trash file until emptied or written over and included in the total drive usage count.

If you have a windows computer and unhide the files on the drive you will see the hidden files. I am not sure how to do that with a Mac and an NTFS drive but I can tell you how on a windows computer.

Lisa

NTFS by design will generally be formatted in 4K clusters on most hard drives within limits regardless of size. HFS+ doesn't use that scheme, so in effect Jake is correct about the same amount of data taking up less space in HFS+. Also, NTFS carries with it a lot of meta data that requires extra space. HFS+, a lot less.

Thanks everyone for your replies. At the moment I don't have access to a PC. However I do have bootcamp on my MBP. The drive in question is 1 TB. Using bootcamp (windows 8.1) the drive reads as 931 GB. While the math on this figure doesn't quite add up to fully account for the discrepancy cited above, am I correct in saying that the 931 GB is a reflection of what you've all said. I did look in the recycle bin and there was nothing there.

I'm being something of a stickler about this because something else isn't "adding up" with some of the media files. About a dozen of them read as off line. When I do a search to relink them Premiere Pro says they can't be found. Perhaps this a question for a video dedicated board but if the software can see them, why can't they be found.

Thanks again

Okay now you are in my territory. I use Premiere Pro almost daily on both a Mac and Windows editor with a variety of external drives.

You say PPRo is wanting to relink the files. Can you see the files in the Media Browser in PPRo? Have you tried copying the files that are off-line one at a time to the mac external drive?

If PPRo can't "find" the files they could have been corrupted in the move and therefore is not recognizing them. Recopying them one at a time might help.

You might end up having to put Paragon on your Mac to read the NTFS drive and move the files.

https://www.paragon-software.com/home/ntfs-mac/

Lisa

Hi Lisa

Great to know you’re here. First, going back to your previous post, can you tell me how to unhide the files on a PC. I now have access to one.

I should say this is my first adventure in PPRo having up until now, worked exclusively in FCP7 and its previous iterations. So still on a learning curve. While I didn’t have Paragon installed at the time of transfer I did install it later on just to see if having it told me something different in terms the amount of data. No difference. And I’ve just completed another transfer since having Paragon. No difference. That said, I thought the only purpose of this software was to be able to write to a NTFS drive from a Mac. That one should be able to read and copy without it.

I can see the files in the media browser in PPRo. But when i look for them in the finder, they don’t seem to be there. Since my last post I did some further searching on PPRo. I think what’s likely is that the files were logged off line but not imported. But even if so, what I still don’t get is why these files show up as off line to begin with, given I’m not working with a project file from the original editor. And that is at the core of why this project has proven to be so difficult.

Believe it or not when I was handed this project for re-editing, I wasn’t given the project file. After weeks of continually asking for it, I’m finally told that it isn’t possible. Can you think of any plausible reason how this could be true?

It seems to me that even if for some reason there’s a bug in this editor's PPRo installation, so that he can’t do a “save as” or a save a copy” to make a duplicate, whats to stop him from simply making a copy of the file by doing a drag and drop onto another drive. Granted, I am thinking of a Mac environment when I say that and perhaps its a different story on a PC but from my pov this just doesn’t add up. fwiw, he’s on CS6.

Assuming I can’t find anything when I look for any hidden files then it seems that what you and others have said above is probably whats going on. But any further insight, especially about the lack of the project file issue. would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Jase

kicklite said:

.... First, going back to your previous post, can you tell me how to unhide the files on a PC. I now have access to one.

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To unhide in windows: Open a window to show your drives. Top left click on Organize. Scroll down to Folder and search options. Click on the View tab. Under Advanced settings, look for Hidden files and folders and change the radio button under it from Don't Show to Show Hidden files, folders and drives. Click apply and Ok.

kicklite said:

I should say this is my first adventure in PPRo having up until now, worked exclusively in FCP7 and its previous iterations. So still on a learning curve. While I didn’t have Paragon installed at the time of transfer I did install it later on just to see if having it told me something different in terms the amount of data. No difference. And I’ve just completed another transfer since having Paragon. No difference. That said, I thought the only purpose of this software was to be able to write to a NTFS drive from a Mac. That one should be able to read and copy without it.

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That is correct. I am curious if unhiding the files will give you any answers.

kicklite said:

I can see the files in the media browser in PPRo. But when i look for them in the finder, they don’t seem to be there. Since my last post I did some further searching on PPRo. I think what’s likely is that the files were logged off line but not imported. But even if so, what I still don’t get is why these files show up as off line to begin with, given I’m not working with a project file from the original editor. And that is at the core of why this project has proven to be so difficult.

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That does not make sense. For Premiere Pro to indicate off-line files it has to be a part of the current project and have previously been imported. You indicate you do not have the original project files so I am not sure what you are seeing unless they are video files encoded in a format Premiere will not work with.

kicklite said:

Believe it or not when I was handed this project for re-editing, I wasn’t given the project file. After weeks of continually asking for it, I’m finally told that it isn’t possible. Can you think of any plausible reason how this could be true?

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Someone deleted them? They got corrupted - which could explain the video file issues. I have had projects crash and because the files Premiere creates got corrupt but usually it creates a recovery file.

kicklite said:

It seems to me that even if for some reason there’s a bug in this editor's PPRo installation, so that he can’t do a “save as” or a save a copy” to make a duplicate, whats to stop him from simply making a copy of the file by doing a drag and drop onto another drive. Granted, I am thinking of a Mac environment when I say that and perhaps its a different story on a PC but from my pov this just doesn’t add up. fwiw, he’s on CS6.

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I am not sure what is going on but I use CS6 on my mac and pc. I have the two computers linked and I frequently start a project on one and move it to the other with absolutely no issues. Here is a link that talks about doing just that. Scroll to the bottom for the explanation. I don't know why you could not copy the project files and then try opening them on your computer. It is worth a try although I can't figure out why you can't do a "save as"??? That is really weird. Reinstalling CS6 could fix that and you are right - it doesn't add up.

kicklite said:

Assuming I can’t find anything when I look for any hidden files then it seems that what you and others have said above is probably whats going on. But any further insight, especially about the lack of the project file issue. would be much appreciated.

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I think someone messed up the project or moved some files and Premiere can not find them or it is possible some video files were corrupted due to a bad drive. I will tell you a good running install of Premiere Pro is a thing of beauty and a bad running install of Premiere Pro is the makings of a nightmare.

If you happen to actually find the files you could try re-encoding them to an accepible format for Premiere. I use AVC which has a version for macs and pcs. It is free (just watch when you install for "free" offers - I seem to remember there might be some).

I feel your pain. I have two other video creators at work and while I was the one who taught them I have been amazed at some of the bad habits they have developed. This frequently results in my having to play detective to figure out what they did and fix it. And of course, it always happens when we need the finished video in the next few minutes.

Let me know what you find out. The missing videos or what ever they are on the drive is just weird. I am sure you asked if there are other copies of those files stored on another drive....right, probably not.

Lisa

Unhiding the files hasn’t revealed much so far partly because there are just so many to look at and compare that I eventually gave up. Unless there’s a way to quickly identify which files were previously hidden? I did find one folder with about 6-8 files in it but certainly not video given their size. What I did do was compare folder size between the 2 drives, in the hope that would be a clue as to where to find hidden files. All of the folders on the Mac formatted drive were about 4-5% bigger than the same ones on the NTFS. Another PC/Mac difference of some sort? This certainly makes me want to get up to speed on the windows side of things.

I also decided to create a new project and import the files from the NTFS drive. (Previously I had only done so from the HFS+ drive). The results were the same with the off line files. Nearly all are of the offline files are avi so not problem there and one is an mp4 also no problem.

The project file of the entire movie hasn’t been deleted. Since being given the drive, I’ve been sent several new re-edits over the net. On one of them, the only change was the addition of subtitles. I have little doubt there is more going on here than is being acknowledged.

Unfortunately the prospect of being sent a new drive with the missing files is out of the question. Much of this material was shot over a period of time with a mixed bag of formats so I suspect the editor had these on multiple drives and simply forgot to transfer them all. Also, it was edited in an area prone to power failures so that could cause a corrupted drive. So far I have requested a few shots be sent over the internet, shots that are critical that I have only in a highly compressed format right now.

Lisa, I really appreciate your insight and willingness to help. Thank you.

Jase

Hi Jase!

What a mess you have been handed. It is bad enough when you have to move a project that is your own to a different machine and relink everything. I can't imagine doing it on a project someone else started and you have no idea how it was organized or where stuff is. We all do it slightly different and have preferences. Sounds like the original editor on this project can not finish the project for what ever reason. I imaging you crystal ball is not providing the answers you need either. ;D

Hidden file icons in Windows will look slightly transparent which means they are hidden. On the external drive the hidden files will mainly be some system files (recycle bin) and some folders or files with the name having a period at the start of it. Nothing you should need for the video should be hidden.

At this point I assume you are making lists of files you need that are missing. If the files are off-line with Premiere that means they are physically missing (as you suspect) or corrupt (power outages will do that) and can not be used. Can I safely assume all these files at one time worked in the project? That these are not new additions? Because some encodings that have an avi extension will not work with Premiere and will need to be converted. Just a thought.

Starting new would be my preference if I could not figure out what the other guy did. I had one of the people here come in with a project they could not get to finish out to a DVD in Encore. The project went so far and crashed. I finally figured out he did not understand Encore (which amazed me as he has been doing this for a few years now.) He imported several videos as timelines and then put them together in one of the timelines. He set his markers for the menu in the new timeline and well... it was a convoluted mess. When I stripped it down and got rid of all the unlinked and unnecessary timelines it was fine. But I still can't figure out how he got his other projects to work...

I started editing with windows and moved to mac. Once I got the differences down between the different operating systems it has been smooth sailing. I have no issues moving a project from one os to the other and I thank Adobe for that.

Good luck and if you have any other questions post back. I will try to help.

BTW: I like to use extFAT on the USB external drives I use between my windows and mac editors. I have had no problems doing this although others will caution you because it is not a journaled format.

Lisa

Hi Lisa!

Yeah, I’m fresh out of crystal balls alright! And the organization of media is a mess imho. That said, the editor has done a remarkably good job in virtually all respects. A curious contradiction as far as I’m concerned. This was shot and edited overseas and I’ve been asked to re-edit for a North American audience. In many respects I wouldn’t change a thing but in others most definitely, notably in the music he used. Removing that would be a breeze if I had a project file but needless to say, In the various versions I’ve received, its mixed with dialogue and ambient sound. Its impossible for me to say whether all files worked at one time or another. I considered starting fresh but as not all the interviews are in English, I ruled that out.

I’m going to look again for hidden files, thanks for the tip on that. Also about PPRo not reading all flavours of avi.

I’m supposed to return the drive soon and I’m thinking about cloning the drive before I do. I’ll assume this would have to be to NTFS and not exFAT. Which software would you use? Something comparable to Carbon Copy Cloner or is there a windows “Time Machine” that would do an equally good job? What about the prospect of doing this with my MBP which I recently setup up with Bootcamp/Windows 8.1. I can borrow a PC anytime I want to but not having to is simply more convenient.

At this point, despite all the “lost hair” over this I’m intrigued by the mystery and at the least want to be absolutely sure about what’s going on, even if I can’t solve the actual problems.

Thanks again
jase

Which software would you use?

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Lisa may have a different suggestion (she's more knowledgeable about this than me) but off hand, I would suggest using "Acronis True Image" to do the job. I've used that for years on all my Windows machines and it works well.

For cloning the best is Acronis True Image but it will cost $50. A free one that is good but less bells and whistles is DriveImage XML The clone will be in what ever format the original drive was in. In this case NTFS.
( I feel the need to tell you I own a drive cloner so I have not used either product although years back I did use Acronis. )

I will say I feel your pain. I admit if someone came in and tried to make sense out of my method of madness I call organization, they would probably loose their mind but, for me it works.

I get the issue with the audio. Especially if they added background music to dialog and you need to change it. That is next to impossible to change without the original tracks.

Good luck getting it all straightened out. I feel your pain.

Another thought - if this was shot over seas, was it shot in PAL or NTSC or a mix possibly? I can't imagine they mixed modes but if so it could explain the off-line? I have never worked with PAL files but I know they are a totally different encoding and frame rate.

Lisa

Thanks to you both for the software recommendations. Yup, true confessions time. I too, can be a little helter skelter with my media management.

Mostly this was shot in Pal with a little NTSC. Mainly SD, a mix of both 4:3 and 16:9 with a dash of HD for good measure. Another reason I chose to do this in PPRo. FCP7 would never have handled it without heaps of transcoding and or rendering. The issue of frame rate is a subject for another day.

If and when I make some progress with this, I’ll let you know. In the meantime, if you happen to see some unidentified grey particles float across your screen while reading this thread, that would be my brain, post cranial explosion!

kicklite said:

In the meantime, if you happen to see some unidentified grey particles float across your screen while reading this thread, that would be my brain, post cranial explosion!

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I'd try to avoid that if possible. I'm pretty sure we don't have any remedies for that yet. I'll get Vansmith working on that right away.: Might as well put that brand new PhD to good use. Mischievous:

Slydude said:

I'd try to avoid that if possible. I'm pretty sure we don't have any remedies for that yet. Mischievous:

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Good advice. I'll do my best but no promises...