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Apple outsourcing techsupport to india

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Looking at things from a global point of view, I really don't think it is a bad thing. Tech support work is huge in India as everyone knows. One of my good buddies is Indian and I had a chance to go to India with him this past summer. I saw the Dell Tech support building, and wow, If I worked there I would be proud to say it. That building is anything but shabby. I hope that Apple puts as much into their building as Dell has. The staff is another issue. There are hundreds, probably thousands of places that teach Indian phone operators how to hide their accent and how to be more understandable on the phone. Alot more than you might think goes into this. I hope that Apple will hire a good work force that will help us with our problems (supposing there ever is one) Outsourcing is a huge part of what is making India the giant it is today.
 
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Can a moderator please close this vague thread? I'm so tired of seeing it show up at the top of the forum.

It's months old.

It should be split up in to focused topics to be discussed, rather than an ever-ending rant.

Cheers.
 
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When I was at MS they started implementing the India help desk for Premier customer support (the silver queue) It was the biggest PITA I had to deal with. The worst part was that I had the hardest time understanding these guys. Most of them knew very proper English, but almost none of them had ever worked on their accent.

From a skills standpoint it was much worse. For one, at the time, these guys could not support IE6. The problem is, they still tried. It was a total disaster having to apologize to the customer because some twit in India had unregistered wininet.dll (yes this actually happened) These guys couldn't configure a proxy properly, let alone run a wininet debugging session. And if it came to debugging a memory dump, just forgetabouit. How many times to I have to explain to a guy that a system level hang isn't going to be identified when you run !locks in the debugger.

Its now been a year and a half since my time there was finished. I don't know how good or bad the situation is with Bangalore, but I do know that MS hired a bunch of full time employees for their help desks in Las Colinas because the workload was so bad. I actually feel sorry for those guys because I've worked those trenches. You learn a lot from being on the line of fire but the stress just isn't worth it. Thats why I refuse to work any support desk job no matter how advanced it is.
 
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Surely, not every technician-group in India will be super-duper, but isn't it also Microsoft's responsibility to choose and train the right one? It'd still be cheaper.

And obviously, noone is implying that tech support in India is inferior to anywhere else? A bad tech team could jsut be waiting for you in Ohio, serving Dell customers.

During this whole debacle, Indian tech support had me entering command lines to reset eprom and fcsk(?) disk checks etc. After running the last test my fans spun up to top rpm, my iMac sounded like it was launching off a carrier deck. I got into Online Support and asked how to quiet the fans so I could still use the Mac until I took it to the shop the next day.
Chat support wouldnt answer my question, they replied,"Your unit has been marked for repair"
I replied,"I know, but I need to use the machine for a couple of hours before I lose it for a week. How do I quiet the fans"?
"The unit is to be sent for repair" they reply.
"I know, how do I quiet the fans"
"This unit is marked for repair"
"I am taking it in, in the morning"
Round and round we go.
Chat support finally tells me,"There is no way to reset the fan speed"

If you are trying to crunch about a computer that is BROKEN and MARKED FOR REPAIR, is it the fault of an Indian that it has to work, for you, just there, a couple of hours, like a christmas miracle?

Trying to solve a hardware problem over the phone is like trying to launch a space shuttle by chatting with Houston over Adium.
 
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Surely, not every technician-group in India will be super-duper, but isn't it also Microsoft's responsibility to choose and train the right one? It'd still be cheaper.

And obviously, noone is implying that tech support in India is inferior to anywhere else? A bad tech team could jsut be waiting for you in Ohio, serving Dell customers.

You're absolutely right and MS does do a lot of training. I used to see blue badges running off to India for 1 to 3 month tours. The problem is that the good ones immediately get hired away. This is one of the reasons why I'm not seriously worried about outsourcing when it comes to my job. India IT wages are growing and growing fast. Outsourcing simply won't be worth it in a decade.

One other peeve about India. I'll preface this by saying that it certainly doesn't apply to EVERYONE. There are very notable exceptions. However I think there is a cultural difference that hinders good support. As you know, most call centersl operate on a script. They also have a set list of instructions to follow for each problem that occurs. Dell's India support is notorious for this. If you have a stinking CD-ROM issue that you've already diagnosed, you have to go through all the troubleshooting steps AGAIN before they'll send you a drive. The point is that many techs in India follow these scripts and they do it well. However when it comes to being quick on your feet or thinking out of the box, they kinda fall flat. I'm not sure if this is a cultural thing or a management thing. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a Lumberg type telling each associate to follow the script or else.

Let me illustrate:

A customer called India with a blue screen issue. The blue screen was due to a PTE (Page Table Entry) depletion. The customer was running Win2k3 with 4GB or RAM and SQL. The India based tech ran through all sorts of troubleshooting steps, including gathering a memory dump. The tech knew what a PTE depletion was and knew that the common cause was having /PAE and /3GB in the Boot.ini file at the same time. However he never checked it because the system only had 4GB of RAM. He spent hours talking to the customer about the issue, gathering perfmon logs and such. Eventually he called into the Bronze queue (escalation queue) and got me. They were less than a minute into describing the problem when I asked if they had checked the boot.ini file. The customer said no. After a brief sigh I asked him to do so. /PAE was there but no /3GB (at least the customer knew enough to NOT do that)

You see, what the India tech didn't know was that Win2k3 automatically enables /PAE when 4GB of RAM is used, even though it doesn't need it. The reason is that the OS supports hot swappable RAM and figures if you already have 4GB or RAM, you might want to add more in the future. The problem is that /PAE cuts your available PTEs in half because it uses them to extend the 32bit memory addressing to 64bit. The India tech didn't know this but if he had only done the one basic thing of checking the boot.ini file, the problem could have been fixed in SECONDS instead of HOURS.

I ended up taking ownership of the case and had the India tech drop the call. I think informed the customer that if he was surveyed, the survey would apply only to me and not to the India tech and I asked him to take that into consideration (he did) I also informed him that he would be receiving an email from my manager asking him about his experience and that he should be VERY FRANK in his reply. I ended up getting the V-SAT on the survey, but the customer ripped MS a new hole in his reply to my managers email. That email got well up into the executive level, but I'm not sure anything was ever done.

That brings me to another point about MS support. One of the biggest problems is their survey method. During my time there, I got exactly ONE D-SAT survey. The customer gave me all 9's (the highest) but gave the product all 1's (the lowest) because he was ****** off with IE. The customer actually was the one that screwed it up but I was able to fix it within seconds by running a script to re-register all IE .dll files. The customer was EXTREMELY happy with me but because the entire survey applies to me, I got the D-SAT. I really pride myself on my work so I was ******, as you might imagine. If you ever get a call escalated to MS Premier support and get someone in Las Colinas, Canada, or North Carolina you'll find that they do an absolutely INCREDIBLE job of support. If you get India you're screwed.

Oh, here's a tip:

If you call the India desk, identify yourself as a US Military officer. Tell the tech that this is your personal computer but you can only let an American Citizen work on it because there is sensitive information on it. You'll get through to the LC or NC every time. :D
 
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I can agree with some of what you said. And I can confirm that Indian company culture and general behaviour of an employee will be rather generic, than dynamic.

By that I mean to say that an indian will know how to do a mathematical division with pencil and paper using the grid thingy you learn in primary school, and they will apply it and be great at it, but they won't care to udnerstand what is happening underneath. They can follow very well, but Indians are not necessarily leadership types (this of course apart from all the CEO's and richest people blablablah but compare those few 100 to a billion people).

It is a cultural thing, and it reflects anywhere in India in everyday life. You meet a student and he'll tell you he's studying computer science because his parents told him to, but he's never heard of linux in his life. I actually know such people.

I'm not trying to generalise my countrymen here, yet that's how it is, in a world where education and drilling thereof secures your future.
 
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I just had a horrible experience with United Airlines baggage claim who have outsourced that to India. OMG what a nightmare.

These people read their script and fall all over themselves telling you how sorry they are for the inconvenience etc. It's all BS...they have absolutely no clue how to help you. They read their script (over and over again I might add) and look at the same internet computer screen you're looking at and cannot help you.

Applcare? They can shove it starting right now!
 
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AppleCare is awful, but that cardboard box sure does get here **** fast!! :D

EDIT: That 4-letter word is nothing harsh.
 
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The thread that wouldn't die.....

When I started this back in March I never thought it'd last more than a few days...

Anyways, Apple abandoned plans for tech support outsourcing pretty quickly, and left only sales staff.

http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2...-of-india-apples-outsourcing-woes/&frame=true

The thread can die now. It's been lingering far to long. ;)

****, I can't even start threads in this section any more.
 
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