Apple outsourcing techsupport to india

It might no even be regional just genral american english, I still can't find sense in the word elevator (well it elevates things, yeah, but lift is still a better word), so it's not only a barrier of accents or india being a poor country( which isn't necessarily true) but it's about general regional differences. I bought my iMac from Apple directly, and Apple Swtizerland outsources their store staff from Austria, because swiss salaries are huge. So I needed to talk to this guy who lives 200 miles away but I couldn't understand his german 100%, as it was very different from swiss german or even plain german german.
English as such is a very diverse language, and indian english is incorporated in the oxford, as is south african english and australian english, but certain things won't be understood. A "dicky" in India is the boot of the car. Gas in the US means Petrol.
Tyre and Tire. Do you reali(z/s)e that?

yogi said:

It might no even be regional just genral american english, I still can't find sense in the word elevator (well it elevates things, yeah, but lift is still a better word), so it's not only a barrier of accents or india being a poor country( which isn't necessarily true) but it's about general regional differences. I bought my iMac from Apple directly, and Apple Swtizerland outsources their store staff from Austria, because swiss salaries are huge. So I needed to talk to this guy who lives 200 miles away but I couldn't understand his german 100%, as it was very different from swiss german or even plain german german.
English as such is a very diverse language, and indian english is incorporated in the oxford, as is south african english and australian english, but certain things won't be understood. A "dicky" in India is the boot of the car. Gas in the US means Petrol.
Tyre and Tire. Do you reali(z/s)e that?

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Sure. I don't disagree with any of that, but choosing your tech support people from an area that has a dialect that differs from American English is for American tech support is not the best solution. Most people strongly dislike it and most everyone has had communication problems due to the differences.

I have an idea! let's hire people from all over the world but instead of keeping them wherever they live, let's bring them to the US, that would solve all the problems right? because the wouldn't be abroad anymore... This is one of those discussions that won't lead to anything good. Incompetent people can have an excellent american accent, is that better for the user? What about a fully trained software developer living right next door but with a wonderful southern accent?.
Once again, this discussion won't lead to any good. In his first keynote, Steve Jobs said that he use to call customer support to check it they where doing what they were supossed to do. This is the kind of action that produce quality, in India, USA, Peru or Germany. This is he kind of things that make Apple different, let's wait and see what happens.

I don't think most of us care where the call center is. And I don't think we have an issue with other Non-Americans or other races helping us. We just have a couple of needs. Especially when we are paying for it:

1) We need to understand what the other person is saying and just as important, they need to understand us. This goes beyond just speaking english. Yes it's important that the accent is not so heavy that we can only make out every 3rd word. Both the customer and the support person need to understand each other well enough to get the ideas across. For example, someone might speak and understand english very well, but have no clue why an American Joke is so funny. Granted, this should not be as big of a problem discussing technical issues, but depending on how the customer and support person are trying to get their ideas across, it CAN still be a problem. Context is important! There needs to be Effective Communication, and since the support person is being paid to help the customer, they really need to be highly effective in communications, people skills as well as be a bit flexible since each customer is not going to communicate the same way.

2) Skill and Competence is Extremely Important. However, Certified __________(Fill in the blank) is not always a good measure of how competent a person is in whatever they are certififed for. Good Old Fashioned Experience is the best teacher. I've met many people that have degrees and certs coming out of their ears, but would take 3 days to understand and solve a problem that someone with some decent experience could solve in 10 mintues. I've also met people that had great experience and skill that did not have or need any type of Degree or Cert in the technology they work with that might not even be able to pass the certification testing without a lot of preparation, but they were still great at troubleshooting and solving problems in their area of expertise.

Bottom line is, a Competent tech support person should be able to effectively communicate with the majority of their customers, they should have enough knowledge and skill to be able to properly troubleshoot a problem with the customer and adapt as necessary. Making a customer go through an entire script (and I'm sure many here know what I'm talking about) to get to a point where maybe the customer already provided enough info to jump to that section of the script. Or maybe the script needs to get set to the side and REAL troubleshooting take place. Maybe the support person needs to get some help from the next level of support or engineering. I think most of us would be ok with that if we just knew the person on the other end of the phone was really striving to help us more than they are trying to impress us with what they think they know compared to us. The customer cares about one thing, and one thing only. Getting their problem solved, and get it solved properly! Standard canned answers like, "oh...I've never seen that..." or "You need to reinstall your OS" or "replace___________", etc. are NOT good examples of quality or knowledgable support unless some REAL HONEST EFFORT and troubleshooting has taken place.

If there weren't so many cases of bad tech support that's been outsourced, there wouldn't be so many people complaining about it, no would there be so many jokes, etc. It's a big enough problem that people spend the time writing about it and poking fun at it.

My 2 cents.

sbatson said:

behavior/cultural differences can make it very difficult for the customer needing support.

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I can understand some people having difficulties with some accents (my dad can't comprehend UK accents to save his life) but I'm not sure how a "behavioural/cultural" difference is going to affect how someone helps you fix your computer.

I've used tech support from various companies that have been outsourced to somewhere outside North America and never had a problem. I don't understand why people get all wound up because Gurpreet is going to be helping you instead of Joe. This is the functioning of a free and Liberal (the big L kind, not the small l swear word kind) economy. Would you prefer the government step in and regulate how a company is to conduct their business? To me, the whole issue is much ado about nothing.

harris2 said:

I can understand some people having difficulties with some accents (my dad can't comprehend UK accents to save his life) but I'm not sure how a "behavioural/cultural" difference is going to affect how someone helps you fix your computer.

I've used tech support from various companies that have been outsourced to somewhere outside North America and never had a problem. I don't understand why people get all wound up because Gurpreet is going to be helping you instead of Joe. This is the functioning of a free and Liberal (the big L kind, not the small l swear word kind) economy. Would you prefer the government step in and regulate how a company is to conduct their business? To me, the whole issue is much ado about nothing.

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Behavioural and Cultural differences do have an affect communication and context of a conversation. And if that communication is not affective, the support person is not going to be able to help the customer as well as they could if they were communicating properly. Again, do I have to quote myself? I guess I do:

"I don't think most of us care where the call center is. And I don't think we have an issue with other Non-Americans or other races helping us. We just have a couple of needs...."

And this discussion is NOT about what's good for the company's financials, it's what's good for the consumer. I certainly don't want the government involved in something like this, I've dealt with people at the DMV and don't need that with my tech support!

Long term, if the outsourced tech support (heck tech support in general) does not improve, a lot of companies will feel the impact as the "Free Market" will eventually begin to make corrections in one way or another.

yogi said:

you shouldn't try seeling the idea that american english is "accent free" - it took me quite a bit of practice to understand spoken word in hollywood movies, being brought up in british indian english.

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So the problem is obviously at the American end...rrright. Btw, contempary American English is much much closer to the language of Shakespeare and Byron than current British English, in grammar, syntax and pronunciation.

Someone stated non-native english speakers? Hello? India's national languages are Hindi and well... duh, english, and the latter is more widespread than the former.

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I could tell you 6 dozen reasons why "English" spoken by Indians is difficult to understand by Americans, and you wouldn't believe any of them. Cadence, speech melody, pronunciation, syntax, usage, vocabular...all of them differ wildly from standard American English. Indians thinking their English is perfect and should be easy to understand merely aggravates the problem.

who do you think are at the phones there? Farmers?

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I rest my case.

PS: Watch the "Tech Support" clips here http://www.illwillpress.com/vault.html to see why Americans are ever so slightly annoyed with TS being outsourced to India.

Kar98 said:

So the problem is obviously at the American end...rrright. Btw, contempary American English is much much closer to the language of Shakespeare and Byron than current British English, in grammar, syntax and pronunciation.



I could tell you 6 dozen reasons why "English" spoken by Indians is difficult to understand by Americans, and you wouldn't believe any of them. Cadence, speech melody, pronunciation, syntax, usage, vocabular...all of them differ wildly from standard American English. Indians thinking their English is perfect and should be easy to understand merely aggravates the problem.



I rest my case.

PS: Watch the "Tech Support" clips here http://www.illwillpress.com/vault.html to see why Americans are ever so slightly annoyed with TS being outsourced to India.

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What do you mean you rest your case? So they are farmers? I never said the problem was at the american end, read my other post - cultural differences always exist, anywhere and everywhere. But it would be nice if we could jump over these barriers, instead off shooing them off with stupid Flsh clips which SO represent reality.

Who said Shakespeare's English was good . It is part of anyone who does a certficate in English as A FOREIGN language to understand accents from all over the world. I know, because I took the exam. And you don't want to admit that most American's wouldn't pass that exam...

yogi said:

But it would be nice if we could jump over these barriers, instead off shooing them off with stupid Flsh clips which SO represent reality.

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I think they do And it's not like I am imagining barriers where there aren't any. If I can't understand the singsongy ululations emanating from the speaker of my phone, then it's not me, it's the other side, because almost everybody on this side understands me just fine.

Who said Shakespeare's English was good

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I'm saying it was and has been the standard by which English is being measured.

It is part of anyone who does a certficate in English as A FOREIGN language to understand accents from all over the world.

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An exam means the subject has been found to have some basic skills and he might be able to improve upon them once released into the wild. Goes for languages, driving, shooting, painting, bricklaying...

And you don't want to admit that most American's wouldn't pass that exam...

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Americans don't have to, that's the point.

American's don't have to, that's IS in fact the point. American's don't have to anything, they still will be the BEST in the world at everything.

Hmm, interesting thing you say about Shakespeare. I'd like to know more about how I can go measure my english essay against A Midsummernight's dream. He was an artist, he didn't create new language, jsut used it wisely, as it is a beatiful language as such.
Standards are Oxford, not Shakespeare.

I still don't understand your point about the farmers.

Singsongy Ululations? I beg to differ. According to Wikipedia, that word describes " a long, wavering, high-pitched sound resembling the howl of a wolf."

Well in that statement I see not just ignorance towards all other peoples of this earth outside the U.S. but also simple arrogance.

its simple really whoever you call for tech support doesnt really care about your computer they just want to do their job, part of which is satisfying the customers needs. If you cant understand the person youre talking to just politley say "Im sorry i cant understand you that well is there someone else i can speak with?" and theyll say "sure no problem, can you hold for just a minute."

The only times Ive had to deal w/ tech support has been with netgear, which happened twice. they outsource to india and the help was excellent both times

yogi said:

American's don't have to, that's IS in fact the point. American's don't have to anything, they still will be the BEST in the world at everything.

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Hmm, interesting thing you say about Shakespeare. I'd like to know more about how I can go measure my english essay against A Midsummernight's dream.

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Well, you could write it in proper English for starters

Standards are Oxford, not Shakespeare.

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Standard is Webster's, not Oxford

I still don't understand your point about the farmers.

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It's OK. I'm trying to be polite, so I won't explain it.

Singsongy Ululations? I beg to differ. According to Wikipedia, that word describes "a long, wavering, high-pitched sound resembling the howl of a wolf."

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"long, wavering, high-pitched sounds", exactly. That's exactly how Americans perceive English spoken with an East Indian accent. Except it's not a wolf, but a duck with a bad cold.

Well in that statement I see not just ignorance towards all other peoples of this earth outside the U.S. but also simple arrogance.

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If I was rude, I could say exactly the same about you, since you're assuming that your crude version of English is "correct" and everybody else is wrong.

Try to understand that I am not attempting to diminish Indian culture here, but the English spoken by Indians (or Germans, Japanese, or Filipinos for that matter) just sounds utterly goofy to American ears, and since it's a _second_ language for them, it's Americans who set the standard of English. Don't think I don't sympathize either. Germans are being taught a synthesized and equalized version of English called Received Pronunciation. Useful if English is used as a lingua franca with other non-native speakers, but quite obviously weird, strange, foreign to "native ears". It's worse yet when ERP is taught by non-native speakers to boot. Since other students, and other non-native speakers do understand each other just fine, they are utterly flabbergasted if native speakers can not understand them and they in turn can't make themselves understood either.
The explosive German consonants and the singing way in which Indians breathe into their vowels can make both totally difficult to understand even though they both might assume their knowledge of the language is exceptionally good.
Add this to the tendency of some foreigners to apply their own logic and syntax to the language, and you've got yourself a fine mess. Nothing a customer --who can barely understand computer terms in first place-- wants to deal with.

Since you did bring up Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_English

1. No modern language, or dialect, is any better, or more pure, or more correct, than any other. Languages evolve and adapt to suit the needs of the people that speak them.

2. Almost everyone communicates most effectively using the language(s) and dialect(s) they learned in childhood.

3. Completley overcoming #2 is possible, but rare, and takes years, even decades of exposure and effort.

American English is nothing special. It's just the language and dialect that (most) Americans speak. Consequently, it's the best language and dialect to speak when serving American customers. Some non-native speakers may be able to grasp U.S. English better than others, but no amount of training or study can replicate the way a child learns his or her native language, whatever that may be.

That sucks! One of the things I enjoyed was calling Apple tech support knowing that I would get somone who spoke English decently and I didn't have to repeat the question like 1,000 times.

but really, how often to we actually call tech support any way, most of us can fix the computer if it breaks ourselves, and if we can't we come here.
Plus how often to macs go down any way?

@Kar98: Good Article, it says

"It will be found that excellent English bearing fewer regional grammatical peculiarities is spoken in upper-class families (commonly referred to, in India, as 'Westernised'), though even among them hints of a uniquely Indian flavour (particularly in a so-called 'Indianised' British accent) are typically retained."

And according to you farmers operate telephones?
Let me tell you one thing, I never said Indian English is correct and all else wrong, I said it is common competence to be able to understand it.

A duck with a bad cold. Very nice, precious.
Hardly any lower-class people will be put in positions like tech support in India.
And English is not a second langage, it is medium of instruction in schools and the official language for government documents.

yogi said:

@Kar98: Good Articel, it says

"It will be found that excellent English bearing fewer regional grammatical peculiarities is spoken in upper-class families (commonly referred to, in India, as 'Westernised'), though even among them hints of a uniquely Indian flavour (particularly in a so-called 'Indianised' British accent) are typically retained."

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And English is not a second langage, it is medium of instruction in schools and the official language for government documents.

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= lingua franca, second language.

"It will be found that excellent English bearing fewer regional grammatical peculiarities is spoken in upper-class families (commonly referred to, in India, as 'Westernised'), though even among them hints of a uniquely Indian flavour (particularly in a so-called 'Indianised' British accent) are typically retained."

If the English is correct, only the accent is the barrier. This shouldn't be much of a problem to overcome then by you way cool all-savant Americans.

Lingua franca = language more widely used than the native speaking community.
It is NOT a second language. There are more speakers of English in India than any other language.

Besides, if your support centRE was to be in the U.S.m who guarantees they won't be speaking one of the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dialects_of_the_English_language#North_America

yogi said:

If the English is correct, only the accent is the barrier.

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Was that not my point all along? And I tried to make it quite politely too. Bluntly put, why should I listen to yammering, yodelling noises that sound like Apu Nahasapeemapeteleen, or to people stricken with permanent throat infections when I paid good American money?

This shouldn't be much of a problem to overcome then by you way cool all-savant Americans.

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Actually, I'm German.

Besides, if your support centRE was to be in the U.S.m who guarantees they won't be speaking one of the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dialects_of_the_English_language#North_America

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"Center", actually. And I haven't got a problem with any of the American dialects of English, except for full-blown Ebonics, which I find a little hard to understand. Same as any of the 4 dialects spoken in Scotland, btw. I would be just as pissed if I had to call up a tech support center in Greenock (*giggles*) or Freilassing, if these were manned with natives of the region. There's dialect-tinged standard language, and there's dialect. And even though I am a native of Germany, I can't be expected to understand every dialect of German, but will tolerate local varieties of the standard German language. Which isn't the same. Likewise in English. I can understand the majority of dialects, excluding Scottish ones; Hinglish and Engrish I simply don't want to deal with. Too freaking alien sounding.
That was one of the reasons I ordered a Mac in first place: the tech support center is right around the corner in Austin!

So it comes down to YOU not wanting to deal with it.
If you paid your good american money to apple, maybe you just shouldn't have, because it'll end up in the hands of dirty Indian farmers anyway who have no kind of education that people residing in the U.S. have.

You might be German, and you tolerate the different dialects, be it Schwäbisch or Hessisch or Austrian.
But if you're going to want to use the English language, you'll HAVE to deal with these things - whether Hingrish, Spanglish or your guy in Greenock - because that's how it's going to be. The world has to deal with Hollywood English movies because they are the best in the field (or have the necessary monetary assets). The tech guys in India are the best in THEIR field (from a price-competence POV). So you'll have to learn to understand it, instead of living n Cliché-World with flash-movies and prejudices conjured by Simpsons episodes.

And, just a question: You buy your computer based on where it's tech support is? You mean, you expect it to break anyway? Wow, that's smart.