English?

Simply because people have divergent views doesn't mean that it's unproductive. As with anything in life, if you start a discussion with a point of view that could very well lead to diverse viewpoints, you need to be ready to defend your view. In this case, I don't think anyone disagrees in spirit but we all diverge on the details. The nitpicking isn't all that unique to this conversation especially when the original argument (yours) makes sweeping claims about huge populations of people. If we are nitpicking, you're making overly general claims which is just as troublesome to a debate/conversation.

The implication that you're making about those that disagree (as not being mature or "adult") could very well be construed as offensive and it's becoming clear that this might be what you're implying about individuals such as myself. Perhaps it would help if you refrained from framing your arguments as constructive and the rest of the posts as immature (by implication).

If the conversation goes down a rabbit hole from which we can't return, I'll close the thread. In the meantime, if the conversation can stay collegial, there's little to suggest that it isn't mature.

Checco said:

This forum is an English language forum and the English language is well defined, irrespective of localisation (the use of 's' instead of 'z' is British). Nothing relative about it.

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Pick up a linguistic textbook or a cultural studies reader. The argument that language is concrete and not relative has been disproven in so many ways that it's just about "fact." No language is well defined - they're all historically and socially contingent, inheriting meaning from the world in which it's used. Indeed, a quick read up on semiotics illustrates this point.

Checco said:

As with many things in life, a bit of good sense will tell you where the limit is. I see it this way: complete disregard is unacceptable, but the odd typo is just part of life - we are only human after all.

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I totally understand what you're saying. But the hard to understand thing is...everyone's "limit of good sense" is different.

It's kind of like tellng a dirty joke. Everyone's idea of what "dirty" is can be a little bit different. Tell a dirty joke in a room full of people (people that you think will not be offended by the joke)...and guess what...someone end's up being offended.

Politicians & celebrities & newscasters do this sort of thing all of the time...then they get themselves in trouble...and in some cases get fired from their job or have to resign.

Sexual harrassment in the workplace is another one of these topics where one person's idea of "good sense"...another person will disagree with. Thus what one male employee does not think is sexual harrassment...a female employee does. BAMM...guess who's losing their job!

When posting a thread topic like this...expect some backlash/disagreement!

- Nick

vansmith said:

The implication that you're making about those that disagree (as not being mature or "adult") could very well be construed as offensive and it's becoming clear that this might be what you're implying about individuals such as myself. Perhaps it would help if you refrained from framing your arguments as constructive and the rest of the posts as immature (by implication).

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There are certainly constructive responses, I didn't criticise a single one of them.

vansmith said:

Pick up a linguistic textbook or a cultural studies reader. The argument that language is concrete and not relative has been disproven in so many ways that it's just about "fact." No language is well defined - they're all historically and socially contingent, inheriting meaning from the world in which it's used. Indeed, a quick read up on semiotics illustrates this point.

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Languages certainly will change over time but are also well defined and documented. There is nothing relative about the spelling of a word or the proper use of grammar and punctuation.

pigoo3 said:

I totally understand what you're saying. But the hard to understand thing is...everyone's "limit of good sense" is different.

It's kind of like tellng a dirty joke. Everyone's idea of what "dirty" is can be a little bit different. Tell a dirty joke in a room full of people (people that you think will not be offended by the joke)...and guess what...someone end's up being offended.

Politicians & celebrities & newscasters do this sort of thing all of the time...then they get themselves in trouble...and in some cases get fired from their job or have to resign.

Sexual harrassment in the workplace is another one of these topics where one person's idea of "good sense"...another person will disagree with. Thus what one male employee does not think is sexual harrassment...a female employee does. BAMM...guess who's losing their job!

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Good point. To some, what I see as almost illegible posts may be absolutely fine. First lesson learned.

pigoo3 said:

When posting a thread topic like this...expect some backlash!

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Definitely. Second lesson? Don't post!

Checco said:

... For members whose mother tongue is not English, that's understandable, ....

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Fixed that for you.

On the substance, I agree completely. And don't get me started on pronunciation! Our local newscasters butcher the language regularly. The predominate error seems to be pronouncing words beginning with an e as "uh".

toMACsh said:

Fixed that for you.

On the substance, I agree completely. And don't get me started on pronunciation! Our local newscasters butcher the language regularly. The predominate error seems to be pronouncing words beginning with an e as "uh".

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so they would say uhnglish?

Checco said:

Good point. To some, what I see as almost illegible posts may be absolutely fine. First lesson learned.

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If you haven't seen them...or if it's been a while since you've seen one of these threads/posts...how about folks who post a "wall of text" with no punctuation (this is what I call illegible)...like this:

"a paragraph written usually on an internet forum that is usually very long has little or no punctuation and is very stressful on the eyes Interesting hillary clinton has been telling america that she is the most qualified candidate for president based on her record which she says includes her eight years in the white house as first lady or co-president and her seven years in the senate here is a reminder of what that record includes as first lady hillary assumed authority over health care reform a process that cost the taxpayers over $13 million she told both bill bradley and patrick moynihan key votes needed to pass her legislation that she would demonize anyone who opposed it but it was opposed she couldn't even get it to a vote in a congress controlled by her own party and in the next election her party lost control of both the house and senate hillary assumed authority over selecting a female attorney general her first two recommendations zoe baird and kimba wood were forced to withdraw their names from consideration she then chose janet reno janet reno has since been described by bill himself as my worst mistake hillary recommended lani guanier for head of the civil rights commission when guanier's radical views became known her name had to be withdrawn hillary recommended her former law partners web hubbell vince foster and william kennedy for positions in the justice department white house staff and the treasury respectively hubbell was later imprisoned foster committed suicide and kennedy was forced to resign hillary also recommended a close friend of the clintons craig livingstone for the position of director of white house security when livingstone was investigated for the improper access of up to 900 fbi files of clinton enemies and the widespread use of drugs by white house staff both hillary and her husband denied knowing him fbi agent dennis sculimbrene confirmed in a senate judiciary committee hearing in 1996 both the drug use and hillary's involvement in hiring livingstone after that the fbi closed its white house liaison office after serving seven presidents for over thirty years"

This is just an example I pulled off the internet...and made worse! No capitalization, no punctuation, just a "wall of text". We sometimes get these on Mac-Forums. Many times (I'm guessing) from folks texting on cell phones. I didn't even include cell-phone "short-hand words"/acronyms:

Slang Dictionary - Text Slang, Internet Slang, & Abbreviations

- Nick

Checco said:

Languages certainly will change over time but are also well defined and documented. There is nothing relative about the spelling of a word or the proper use of grammar and punctuation.

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Sure they are. If they weren't, we'd be using the same rules and language practices that Shakespeare was. Remember, language is entirely social (it doesn't exist in nature, it only exists because people use it and give it meaning). Since that is the case, its meanings and rules are subject to social convention and consequently, they are entirely arbitrary meaning that they can change (and do, regularly). The differences between American and non-American spellings is the perfect example of how different spellings occur. As for grammar and punctuation, texts of yesteryear use very different linguistic and semantic rules but yet, they can still be classified as English. Even today, people follow different rules across cultural lines and yet, they all speak the same language.

vansmith said:

Sure they are. If they weren't, we'd be using the same rules and language practices that Shakespeare was.

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Caveman language: Grunt grunt...ugg ugg! Things were so much simpler then!

- Nick

pigoo3 said:

Caveman language: Grunt grunt...ugg ugg! Things were so much simpler then!

- Nick

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this is how my teenage daughter communicates with me now!

nickyr said:

this is how my teenage daughter communicates with me now!

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It's amazing you even get that, I thought teenage daughters were only good for an eye roll or something..

My 7 year old already communicates way less with me now than she did just a couple of years ago..

pigoo3 said:

Caveman language: Grunt grunt...ugg ugg! Things were so much simpler then!

- Nick

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If I'm grumpy and haven't had coffee, that sounds like me.

Raz0rEdge said:

My 7 year old already communicates way less with me now than she did just a couple of years ago..

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Most likely the unfortunate result of self-awareness, television, and the interaction with other kids in the public/private school system (parents are bad, uncool, and just don't understand).

I think that by about 25 years old...children start communicating with their parents again.

- Nick

pigoo3 said:

how about folks who post a "wall of text"

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That's the type of post I was referring to.

toMACsh said:

Fixed that for you.

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Thank you.

nickyr said:

so they would say uhnglish?

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uhventually