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Europe vs. Oz

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Hey there guys,

I'd like to get an opinion. I'm considering a relocation to either Europe (likely Italy) or Australia some time in the future. Permits are taken care of, so no issue there, nor is language...but the choice is.

Lots of factors to take into account, such as culture, economy, lifestyle, cost, etc. Without actually living there for a good while, it's difficult to really know where you're going. And within each, life will be different from place to place.

Can you guys give opinions on these two options? For those living there, what are the good and bad parts?

I somehow can't keep from thinking that the States would be the 'ideal' option, if it was one, as it seems almost infinite - something for everyone somewhere! Europe is great because it's central in a sense and there is such cultural diversity virtually on your doorstep. Australia on the other hand seems to be doing well and appears to be kind of a mini-USA, although I think it relies quite heavily on natural resources. A decent future looks almost certain in both and although Europe is battling now, I believe its depth will pull it though.

Thoughts and opinions?
 

vansmith

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I somehow can't keep from thinking that the States would be the 'ideal' option, if it was one, as it seems almost infinite - something for everyone somewhere!
There's something for everyone everywhere. Every country/area is infinite in the things to explore and experience. Culture is much too complex and dispersed in much of the world for one person to absorb all of it in any given period of time. So, I'm sure that doesn't help answer your question but it should help in reassuring you that no matter the place, it won't be boring if you seek things out.

Australia on the other hand seems to be doing well and appears to be kind of a mini-USA, although I think it relies quite heavily on natural resources.
If the Aussies are anything like Canadians, they're not going to like being called mini versions of someone else. Good luck with that. :p
 
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So, I'm sure that doesn't help answer your question but it should help in reassuring you that no matter the place, it won't be boring if you seek things out.
Thanks for the reply. True, although I think overall it needs to be 'compatible' with a person's culture though - holiday is one thing, but permanent is a bit more...permanent! That's what makes it so hard, especially when there's a choice involved. Also, it's very easy for the choice to become emotional to a degree, but then again, is that necessarily a bad thing?

If the Aussies are anything like Canadians, they're not going to like being called mini versions of someone else. Good luck with that. :p
I think they are and I probably haven't been bombarded with responses because it's the middle of the night there! I mean it only in a positive sense though - the US has done well, pretty much the benchmark in terms of success, well, traditionally at least.
 
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Nah go to the States.
 

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If the Aussies are anything like Canadians, they're not going to like being called mini versions of someone else. Good luck with that. :p

You certainly have that right, cobber! Americans coming here should realise that:

Australia had, until recently, elected an unmarried female atheist as Prime Minister.
She and her boyfriend (the "First Bloke") lived together in the official PM's residence.
Australia had (until recently) a brilliant gay woman minister of finance.
Australia has extremely restrictive gun laws.
Australia now has a misogynistic Prime Minister who delights in parading around in budgie smugglers, and does not believe in global warming.
Australia does not play Baseball (isolated exceptions exist) but instead plays Cricket, a game beyond the capacity of Americans to comprehend.
Australians do not wear padding when playing football, and play a generally rougher game, that does not permit half the team to run away when the whistle is blown, so a whole new bunch can come on.

And a few other things that typically make Americans shiver in fear or embarrassment.

On the good side, the food's great, but expensive, the beer is cold, and the surf's up. What else matters?
 

pigoo3

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On the good side, the food's great, but expensive, the beer is cold, and the surf's up. What else matters?

What else matters??...something VERY VERY important...the women (Sheila's)!!!;)

I pretty much know there's no problem there:)...you just didn't mention it!:)

- Nick
 
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Yeah, you are right of course,silly of me. I also forgot to mention some other things that Americans don't seem to understand or want either, like universal education, and universal health care, and while I think it is a pretty conservative country, to most Americans it seems like a wild eyed socialist haven.
 
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As an American expat who does my fair share of head-shaking at the antic one sees coming from the US, let me point out that such places as Canada and Australia, while to the left of America politically, wouldn't shock most Americans *who actually travel* -- its the ones who never leave home (and the whackjobs they elect) that are the ignorant problem!

IME, many Americans are very (personally) liberal and broadminded and would feel right at home in either country if they only knew more about them. America's a huge place, don't paint the entire population with such a broad brush!

Having said that, there are plenty of parts of it that appear to have gone stark raving nutters, and should be avoided -- but the Pacific Northwest, Atlantic Northeast, much of the west coast and even some parts of the north are rational and friendly and good people to deal with -- perhaps its the fact that they don't get as sun baked as the whackadoodle south, midwest and southwest! :)

Anyway, it's been my experience that once Americans discover the truth about universal education and universal healthcare, they love the idea -- its just that too many of them haven't ever seen it in action and so don't understand how it could work without being worse than what they have.

To (finally) answer the OP's question, of the two I'd personally be inclined to pick Australia for living, though I love Italy and would visit there again in a heartbeat.
 
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I do apologise for the broad brush, I will admit to indulging the Australian penchant for hyperbola. I lived in Canada for many years, very close to you, actually, in the Gulf Islands and one of our favourite occupations when really bored was telling tall stories to Americans. It was not particularly praiseworthy, and not really very much fun, a bit like shooting ducks in a barrel.

It did show however the remarkable insularity of many Americans, even down to amazement that the coins in Canada were different.

Also, I do not for a moment pretend that Australia is without it's faults as a society. For a start, the beer swilling, fat bellied, utterly ignorant and xenophobic Australian is all too real. The economic divide, while not as extreme as the US is heading that way, and from the same reactionary greed driven pressures.

And, every time there is a decent wave, it is decided that some idiot might drown, so they close the beaches, just in case.
 
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Some very interesting and funny responses, thanks guys!

Have family in Italy. It's nice to visit as a tourist, but not to live. If I were to relocate, I would move to a place that has a great economy...yes, it does exist, and Italy is the last place on my list.

Here's a cool/informative list of many various rankings: Country Rankings 2013 - Country comparisons, Economy, Geography, Climate, Natural Resources, Current Issues, International Agreements, Population, Social Statistics, Flags, Maps, Political System

Thanks for the link. That's the issue with Italy, not a great economy at the moment and doing business isn't the easiest - Italians in business can be as complicated as they come. Culture away from business is great though (I'm the son of an Italian immigrant and my wife is a native Italian), not to mention great for a Catholic.

On the good side, the food's great, but expensive, the beer is cold, and the surf's up. What else matters?

LOL!

To (finally) answer the OP's question, of the two I'd personally be inclined to pick Australia for living, though I love Italy and would visit there again in a heartbeat.

Thanks for the opinion. Possibly Australia is better for building a life, raising a family, etc. and Italy remains for holidays and retirement. Thirty-eight and thinking about retirement already?!? Now I sound like a true Italian!

And, every time there is a decent wave, it is decided that some idiot might drown, so they close the beaches, just in case.

That's one of the difficult aspects. Quite a bit, or sometimes too, controlling. Coming from a country where you are largely free to live your life (not lawlessly), being expected not to think can be quite a challenge.

Thanks again everyone for your input. Emigration isn't an easy decision and having options is fortunate, although it makes the choice a lot more difficult. If the choice could be made purely on logic alone, it would be quite simple. But, since we're emotional beings, that side of us also needs to be taken care of - and the logical and emotional sides don't necessarily agree. Honestly, how often do they? It seems that younger people tend to be more logical/clinical, whereas those that are older seem to be less clinical and consider the emotional side a little more (just look at grandparents with their grandchildren). Maybe therein lies the answer. Nothing in life is permanent, nor absolute and there is a time (and possibly a related place) for everything.
 

vansmith

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It seems that younger people tend to be more logical/clinical, whereas those that are older seem to be less clinical and consider the emotional side a little more (just look at grandparents with their grandchildren).
I think that's the first time I've ever heard someone say that young people are more clinical/rational. ;)
 
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I think that's the first time I've ever heard someone say that young people are more clinical/rational. ;)

Sorry, let me put that into context. Now this is just my personal experience so if anyone is offended by the following, I apologise.

I'm referring to young professionals (college/university degree typically) or business-owners that are usually passionate about what they do and have huge drive to succeed. These people will tend to look at things logically before emotionally, it comes with the territory. I classify myself within this group.
 
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Checco, if you come to Australia with an Italian attitude you will get along fine. Come with an American attitude, not so easy.

The post WW II wave of migrants from mostly Italy and Greece (Melbourne is the second largest Greek city in the world) came with nothing, hunkered down, worked hard and built lives and families that are now an integral part of the Australian mosaic, as did, a little later, the Spanish, central European, and Maltese.

The country would simply not be the place it is now, the good parts that is, without them.

If you can bring enthusiasm, an ability to cope with cultural differences that can be at times surprising, despite the veneer of a (nearly) common language, and yes, a little money, you will do fine.
 
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If you can bring enthusiasm, an ability to cope with cultural differences that can be at times surprising, despite the veneer of a (nearly) common language, and yes, a little money, you will do fine.

Thanks for the encouragement! Certainly lots of enthusiasm and desire to play our part, we were brought up that way. I've spent most of my life within a community of immigrants - the first generation tended to stick together, so growing up you'd be right in the thick of it. Our generation is a little different, softer if you will, but still some hard workers around.

But I hear the Aussies can be a little anti-immigrant, how widespread is it?
 
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Having said that, there are plenty of parts of it that appear to have gone stark raving nutters, and should be avoided -- but the Pacific Northwest, Atlantic Northeast, much of the west coast and even some parts of the north are rational and friendly and good people to deal with -- perhaps its the fact that they don't get as sun baked as the whackadoodle south, midwest and southwest! :).

LOL. So is your general impression of the US that it if you live in a (D)-leaning state you are not a nutter? Or perhaps it's that if you live in a sun-baked region that is primarily a food, rust-belt industry or manufactured goods economy you are a nutter? Do the cultured folks and secular academics in the urban centers of some of those hill-jack rural states get a pass? Maybe there is some other broad brush criteria I'm missing? Very funny nonetheless.
 
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But I hear the Aussies can be a little anti-immigrant, how widespread is it?

They can be more than a "little" at times I'm afraid. But it is selective, and to be brutally honest, some instances are justified, the most obvious being the attitude towards the Japanese that resulted from the appallingly barbaric treatment by the IJA of Australian prisoners of war, something that left scars which have healed only recently. And, what the aboriginals have to say about the immigration of the English into Australia 225 years ago is another matter entirely.

The present targets of xenophobic ignorance are the "illegal" "queue jumping" boat people "smuggled" into the country from places like Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan. I put all the above in quotes because a/. it is not illegal, b/. Where they come from there are no queues to jump, and c/. standing up waving like mad to attract the attention of the Australian Navy is not smuggling.

However, pandering to the rednecks, and there is no shortage of them, resulted in a race to the bottom that became a major influence to the outcome of the last federal election. The reality is that the issue is poisoned chalice no matter who picks it up, as the new PM is rapidly discovering.

It is a two way street however, and the moslem immigrants do maintain introspective and insular communities, citing religious requirements as justification for maintaining cultural differences that jar mightily with Australia, which is very much a secular nation. The burkah being the most obvious example, and further demonstrating little enthusiasm for learning English and integrating fully into the life of the country.

Islam remains the first loyalty, commonly the home country second, and Australia down the list somewhere. While this is a sweeping generalisation, and myriad individual examples can argue against it, there is enough truth to it to support the bigots in their bigotry, and unfortunately to alienate a large part of the population who do think reasonably.

In your case, coming from, I presume an Italian background, bringing the benefit of an education, and not impoverishing yourself getting onto an unseaworthy boat in Indonesia to get here, you will have no trouble.

Coming from the US of A however, you will not be able to claim refugee status, although the way the US is going, and under President Palin, that may change. ;)
 
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Thanks for taking the time to respond, jd.

A lot of what you've described I see here as well and the arrival of boats, coincidentally, is common in Italy too, although they may be handled slightly differently. Not that these aspects should need to be considered when making my choice, well at least one would hope that their effect is relatively insignificant.

People holding onto their cultures is quite common amongst immigrants although possibly between Westerners, these differences aren't as noticeable as they may be with moslems. Using Greeks as an example, they hold on to their culture, speaking Greek amongst themselves, maintain their religion, etc, but they do integrate well nonetheless, contributing positively.

I am fortunate to have been educated and we're quite "Italian", excluding the mob links ;D. I certainly wouldn't arrive in a boat from Indonesia as I would likely find myself single again. Fortunately, I already have Australian Permanent Resident status, so I can use the luxuries of a modern airliner and airport for my arrival ;D .

Funny one about the States! Let's hope they keep all in order though, as when they're doing well, we all do well! I'm surprised vansmith didn't swoop down on your comment!

I'm not from the States though...look up the ZA in my profile and being an Aussie, you might just be a little less welcoming :D Hope not though!
 
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If ya come down under to live with skippy, make sure to get some digs first and then go get a crust. If ya have a sheila with you thats good, because she can get the chooks from Woolies and meat too to have a Bar b. Make sure you don't get crook, but if you do, just go out on compo, and if all else fails, just go on the dole.
If your on the dole, sit at home, watch a warrie and have a cuppa with moo juice, and a cpl of bikkies.
If you live in Perth in summer you will get the Fremantle Dr come in around 4ish.
Smoking darts in public is becoming more and more real, so don't do that.
Don't go out on the town and get drunk, as you might end up in a divvie van, and if not the booze bus might end up getting you as you pass a road train . . .
So come on down because 95% of us Aussies live within 150kms of the coast, and anything beyond is desert. We have 8 out of the top 10 deadliest snakes and spiders. And in the sea, box jelly fish or sharks will get ya. You just are not safe, and i would read into our Slang too lol

There are a lot of Sth African Ex Pats over here. Its lovely. Melb is a Cultral City, Sydney is full of yuppies, Brisbane, well the whole state of Queensland is its own State, the NT, if you didn't read a paper or watch the box, you wouldn't know what day it is, its so laid back. Tassie is just down right beautiful state, but no jobs, and Western Australia is gorgeous top to bottom and thats where i live. And FYI Perth is the most isolated city in the world :)
Come on down under . . . .
 

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