Apple returns policy

fco1922 · Sep 15, 2005

Has anyone else in the UK experienced Apple's bizarre (and unlawful) returns policy? If your product is broken or damaged you cannot just return it for a repair or replacement. Instead, you must make an appointment with a "Genius". This is in practice very difficult to do and involves waiting hours. I tried to book an appointment right when the store opened at 10am and was told that there were no slots available and to try later/tomorrow!! This is infuriating as UK law says that merchants must refund defective merchandise with a "minimum of inconvenience to the customer". I know this as I used to work in Trading Standards. When will Apple address this? People should complain to the DTI and EC.

rman · Sep 15, 2005

Is that the policy of all Apple Stores in the UK, or only that stores policy?

inflexion · Sep 15, 2005

not being funny but that is total swollocks you should be able to return any products when you are ready not when they are

iNAP · Sep 15, 2005

Sounds fishy to me .perhaps that manager needs some managing POW!

D3v1L80Y · Sep 15, 2005

fco1922 said:
Has anyone else in the UK experienced Apple's bizarre (and unlawful) returns policy? If your product is broken or damaged you cannot just return it for a repair or replacement. Instead, you must make an appointment with a "Genius". This is in practice very difficult to do and involves waiting hours. I tried to book an appointment right when the store opened at 10am and was told that there were no slots available and to try later/tomorrow!! This is infuriating as UK law says that merchants must refund defective merchandise with a "minimum of inconvenience to the customer". I know this as I used to work in Trading Standards. When will Apple address this? People should complain to the DTI and EC.

Being both a consumer myself, as well as having been the Manager of a retail store, I can empathize with both sides here. Still, there is nothing strange or unlawful going on here. The reason you need to speak with a Genius about this is so Apple can ensure that the defect/damage was not caused by the consumer. I am not in any way implying that you yourself caused the damage or defect, but I am certain that there are some who would, and try to blame the manufacturer.

Put yourself in a retailers/manufacturer's pair of shoes for a moment...if a customer scammed you and returned a unit that he himself damaged and blamed on you, and you returned and refunded money to him, you lost out on the deal. Do this enough times, and the loss compounds. If you do allow it, you have to recoop your costs somehow, so you raise prices. This then affects the rest of the buying public negatively, as they have to pay more money. The price increase could and most times does, drive new business away. So in order to keep costs and loss down, you require that all damage/defect claims be personally inspected. I agree that yes, it may be an inconvenience. However, it is minimal. The phrase "minimum of inconvenience to the customer" does not mean that you will have things go exactly your way, and have a retailer do whatever you demand. Laws are put into place to not only protect consumers, but the businesses as well.

:black:

Aptmunich · Sep 15, 2005

AFAIK you can just contact Apple customer support by phone and have them arrange a product pickup.
Obviously you would like to avoid this if possible, but the genius bar is apples euphemism for their on-site technicians.
If you'd prefer not to wait, you can always arrange for it to be picked up and shipped to their service facility for inspection & repair. Just call applecare support.

bmwrob · Sep 16, 2005

fco1922: don't know about laws or what it might be like in the UK, but earlier today, in the San Francisco area, I waited quite a while for a genius to look at my girlfriend's iPod.

After finding that that the machine was beyond repair, the guy at the counter looked up our info on his computer (after I'd waited for well over an hour), told me that the warranty had expired SIX days ago but would honor it anyway, and handed me a brand-new machine. I guess the moral of my little story is that your patience could pay off nicely. Good luck to you.

fco1922 · Sep 17, 2005

Absolutely incorrect

You may be the manager of a retail store but you are absolutely incorrect regarding returns. Please refer to the DTI circular outlining customer rights and the recent clarifications from the European Commission. A store DOES NOT have the right to require that an engineer inspect a product before it accepts a return unless that engineer is immediately available. For a portable consumer project, making a consumer make an appointment is not permissable. There is abundant case law on this.

The DTI, and the House of Lords, have held that subsequent to a return, if a store can "conclusively and unambiguously demonstrate" that the defect was caused by a consumer, they can seek redress. However, consumer protection legislation errors on the side of the consumer.

If you bought your product with a credit card, you can demand a full refund WITHOUT SEEING A GENIUS so long as you tried to return the product and did so within 28 days.

Note this: I was unable to return a broken Powerbook adapter because no genius was available. I bought a new one and wrote to Apple to complain. Within 48 days I had received a full refund on my credit card, a 10% discount voucher and a formal apology for the Regent's Street Assistant manager. They acknowledged their error.

I say: fight for your rights. Apple should know better. Poor customer service damages your reputation.

D3v1L80Y said:
Being both a consumer myself, as well as having been the Manager of a retail store, I can empathize with both sides here. Still, there is nothing strange or unlawful going on here. The reason you need to speak with a Genius about this is so Apple can ensure that the defect/damage was not caused by the consumer. I am not in any way implying that you yourself caused the damage or defect, but I am certain that there are some who would, and try to blame the manufacturer.

Put yourself in a retailers/manufacturer's pair of shoes for a moment...if a customer scammed you and returned a unit that he himself damaged and blamed on you, and you returned and refunded money to him, you lost out on the deal. Do this enough times, and the loss compounds. If you do allow it, you have to recoop your costs somehow, so you raise prices. This then affects the rest of the buying public negatively, as they have to pay more money. The price increase could and most times does, drive new business away. So in order to keep costs and loss down, you require that all damage/defect claims be personally inspected. I agree that yes, it may be an inconvenience. However, it is minimal. The phrase "minimum of inconvenience to the customer" does not mean that you will have things go exactly your way, and have a retailer do whatever you demand. Laws are put into place to not only protect consumers, but the businesses as well.

:black:

fco1922 · Sep 17, 2005

Formal Inquiry Underway In Britain

Anyone who has had a repair problem with an Apple store in the UK (i.e. been unable to return a defective, newly purchased product without seeing a genius) should note that the DTI (Department of Trade and Industry) has now launched a formal inquiry into this practice. I just found this out from the DTI. You should contact the DTI (Consumer Protection Section) with full details of your experience. Westminster Council's Trading Standards Officers are also involved, and you should copy them.

I would also suggest you contact the Technology Editor at The Guardian as he has been interested in this.

One thing to note: if you bought your Apple product at a re-seller this problem does not occur. Selfridges takes products back, no questions asked, within 28 days. So does Dixons. Isn't it funny that it is APPLE--the company that makes the products--that is being difficult!

Raysor · Sep 23, 2005

Some of you sound like ignorant little fools.If you Bought your defective Apple product from Selfridges etc why are you taking it to the Apple store?Surely on your warranty paperwork that came with you item it does not say book in with a genius @ Apple store does it?At the end of the day Apple store is just another retailer so you people have only yourselves to blame when you take your Apple product that you bought from somewhere else to the Apple Store and do not get seen by a genius.I have had a faulty ipod and i used comon sence and contacted applecare who came round and collected the ipod from me and delivered a new one within a week.A morale of this story READ YOUR WARRANTY INFO!!!!!People like you do not deserve to own Apple products,you only buy becaue it is the new fad!!!

iNAP · Sep 23, 2005

If it is an Apple product, then Apple Warranties it. The Apple Store is where Apple Care always sends it's repair products No need to insult anyone.

Aptmunich · Sep 23, 2005

Yeah: You can take your faulty apple product to ANY apple service partner...
Or did you think that Walmart was giving out technical advice?

caribiner23 · Sep 23, 2005

fco is definitely onto something.

Check out this blog entry regarding technology purchases/returns in the UK.

This is an eye opener for me, a US-based consumer.

fco1922 · Sep 27, 2005

Selfridges?

No one ever said anything about trying to return products purchased from Selfridges to an Apple Store. The point was that some Apple Stores operate a bizarre returns policy that is not compatible with EU law. As Apple has made clear, Apple Corporation does not endorse these policies and is trying to resolve them.

Next point: who ever heard of people "deserving" to own an Apple product? I certainly don't think Apple would endorse such thinking...they want to sell their products (and make money) and not run a religion. But I like your idea and will write to Apple and propose that people undergo an application process before being "allowed" to buy an Apple computer. I can just imagine the response I am going to get back...

I must say that I find it funny how some people find any criticism of Apple to be a personal affront. What's the saying--with friends like these we don't need any enemies?

Raysor said:
Some of you sound like ignorant little fools.If you Bought your defective Apple product from Selfridges etc why are you taking it to the Apple store?Surely on your warranty paperwork that came with you item it does not say book in with a genius @ Apple store does it?At the end of the day Apple store is just another retailer so you people have only yourselves to blame when you take your Apple product that you bought from somewhere else to the Apple Store and do not get seen by a genius.I have had a faulty ipod and i used comon sence and contacted applecare who came round and collected the ipod from me and delivered a new one within a week.A morale of this story READ YOUR WARRANTY INFO!!!!!People like you do not deserve to own Apple products,you only buy becaue it is the new fad!!!

fco1922 · Sep 27, 2005

Morale: Know Your Rights

Thanks for this blog. Consumers in the UK have access to some of the most comprehensive consumer protection legislation in the world, augmented by EC regulations. As a former trading standards officer, you should know that:

- you have the right to a replacement (and not a repair) if a product is inherently faulty, which has been defined (in the case of PCs and similar products) to be a failure within six months;

- you do not have to demonstrate that you did nothing wrong (the onus is on the manufacturer/seller);

- you do not have to have a receipt (though this is handy);

- you cannot sign away your rights.

Ironically, Apple does enforce these rights without ever saying so. Return a faulty iPod? In 99% of the cases it will be replaced (and not repaired).

Again, know your rights. Remember to quote the relevent legislation. The mere fact that you do serves to invoke the legislation. And always quote the legislation in any letters. I'm not raggin on Apple; many companies cause consumers problems when trying to get defective products replaced. Consumer protection legislation exists to product consumers (contrary to what some retailers may assert).

caribiner23 said:
fco is definitely onto something.

Check out this blog entry regarding technology purchases/returns in the UK.

This is an eye opener for me, a US-based consumer.

MartinAustin · Oct 3, 2005

fco1922 said:
Thanks for this blog. Consumers in the UK have access to some of the most comprehensive consumer protection legislation in the world, augmented by EC regulations. As a former trading standards officer, you should know that:

- you have the right to a replacement (and not a repair) if a product is inherently faulty, which has been defined (in the case of PCs and similar products) to be a failure within six months;

- you do not have to demonstrate that you did nothing wrong (the onus is on the manufacturer/seller);

- you do not have to have a receipt (though this is handy);

- you cannot sign away your rights.

Interesting legislation. If we had just the four points listed above, here in America, there would be no business. But that comes more from the general dishonesty in American consumers as compared to the UK, I suppose.

Here, you must demonstrate that not only did you do nothing wrong, but that you did not sneeze on the product. And, even if you DO have a receipt, you might just get socked a nice little (15-25%) restocking fee.

I suppose liberties are different everywhere you go. Good luck to you.

Apple returns policy

fco1922

Guest

rman

inflexion

iNAP

D3v1L80Y

Aptmunich

bmwrob

fco1922

Guest

fco1922

Guest

Raysor

Guest

iNAP

Aptmunich

caribiner23

fco1922

Guest

fco1922

Guest

MartinAustin

Guest

Shop Amazon