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Breaking: Osama Bin Laden is dead

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cwa107

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Sorry. I won't be made to feel remorseful because of my jubilation over his death. Bin Laden was the worst kind of scum - nearly as bad as Hitler, Stalin or Mussolini. To call him a human is a stretch at best. My only remorse is that it happened so peacefully. If it was my choice, I would have had him strung up and beaten to death.

That may not be particularly civilized of me, but this man was a mass murderer. He had no affinity for any particular group other than those that were like-minded. I will not condone or forgive the murder of the thousands of innocent men, women and children that he was directly involved in the slaughter of.
 
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The Hunt for Bin Laden, in Numbers

A few statistics from what was arguably the most expensive manhunt in history.

obl%20stats4.jpg

The Source w/ Sources
 
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Thanks to all the service men for a job well done.
 

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So far I have resisted posting in this thread because my own thoughts are conflicted.

1) I absolutely understand the joy (and the public expressions of it) this news brought
2) Absolutely agree that we must defend ourselves and prosecute those that have perpetrated acts of terrrorism. The country that fails to defend itstelf will soon have nothing left to defend.
3) From what I have read of Bin Laden's treatment of his family he was, as has been stated, a scumbag
4) I share the hope his exit will make the world marginally safer and more just (though I feel this is overly optimistic)
5) On the otherhand, I am deeply conflicted over celebration of his death . . . though, if I was in the position and authority to have carried it out, I would have done so without hesitation

Anyway, I am glad it is over, glad justice was served. Not sure I really added anything to the discussion, but that is where I am on the whole thing FWIW. :p
 
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That sounds all well and good, until you remember that the number one exporter of Islamic extremism is not going anywhere: Saudi Arabia.

You are certainly right there. Saudi Arabia is Americas strongest Arab ally, and the most pernicious exporter of its particular brand of fundamentalist Islam.

One woman living there recently told the BBC, "Saudi Arabia is the largest women's prison in the world."
 
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Knock Knock

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Tap Tap

Being a military background i did find that funny
 
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It was interesting checking out raw footage released on his compound, he wasn't in some cave as many had suspected
 
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On a more serious note, I do hope that they release footage of the operation, maybe even of the guy's demise.

That's really not necessary. The people who don't believe bin Laden is dead will never be convinced. The only other reason to release any photographic and/or video evidence is to be an arrogant d-bag.
 
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Knock Knock

Who's there

Tap Tap

Being a military background i did find that funny

Good one! What was Osama's favorite drink?

Two shots and a splash of water.
 
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That's really not necessary. The people who don't believe bin Laden is dead will never be convinced. The only other reason to release any photographic and/or video evidence is to be an arrogant d-bag.

Yes, because you should believe everything the government feeds you I suppose? Don't ask any questions.. don't question authority... Sorry but, there is a LOT which supports conspiracy theories right now. 10th anniversary, 2012 elections... and all of a sudden, a dead OBL. Yet... not one shred of solid evidence. No photos, and he's dumped in the ocean. How very convenient.

For all we know, OBL could have been dead for years... Sorry but, until there is actual proof, I'm going to give the conspiracy theorist kooks the upper hand on this one. I'd say that there's a very good reason for wanting to be "convinced" on this one, dude. Thousands of people dead (lots of innocent) on both sides, lives irrevocably changed and so on and so forth... I don't have to tell you that.

I don't think it's unfair that people ask not to be lied to on such an occasion. Even if it means putting our gov't up to the task of said deed. It should really be no big deal. After all, if we're going to cheer in the streets and party like it's 1999 over the death of this guy, what's the harm in ponying up proof? Otherwise, this really does go to show how gullible people are, that they'd want to believe just about anything to make them sleep better at night without having to suffer the consequences of knowing the truth. Sad state IMO.

If he's dead, I'm all for it. Great... But the hypocrisy behind it all is a bit much. I personally can't stand all the cheering in the streets.. makes us look every bit as savage as they did when our towers fell. Not to mention how stupid it is to draw more attention than necessary by rubbing it in that we supposedly 86'd their leader. It's one thing to show them how much we kick butt (hoorah) but another thing entirely, to show that we're no more educated or mature than they are.


Doug
 

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Yes, because you should believe everything the government feeds you I suppose? Don't ask any questions.. don't question authority... Sorry but, there is a LOT which supports conspiracy theories right now. 10th anniversary, 2012 elections... and all of a sudden, a dead OBL. Yet... not one shred of solid evidence. No photos, and he's dumped in the ocean. How very convenient. [...] If he's dead, I'm all for it. Great... But the hypocrisy behind it all is a bit much. I personally can't stand all the cheering in the streets.. makes us look every bit as savage as they did when our towers fell. Not to mention how stupid it is to draw more attention than necessary by rubbing it in that we supposedly 86'd their leader. It's one thing to show them how much we kick butt (hoorah) but another thing entirely, to show that we're no more educated or mature than they are.
There's quite the disjoint in your logic here. You say that those who don't think it happened and are demanding pictures should be given credibility but then, later in the same post, you talk about the "savagery" of gloating which, if the pictures were released, would only exacerbate the situation. So, which is it - release the pictures and feed into the reactions you don't like or keep the pictures safe but continue to propagate a conspiracy theory and a lack of faith in a government that won't be satisfied as long as the pictures are kept secret?
 
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There's quite the disjoint in your logic here. You say that those who don't think it happened and are demanding pictures should be given credibility but then, later in the same post, you talk about the "savagery" of gloating which, if the pictures were released, would only exacerbate the situation. So, which is it - release the pictures and feed into the reactions you don't like or keep the pictures safe but continue to propagate a conspiracy theory and a lack of faith in a government that won't be satisfied as long as the pictures are kept secret?

When speaking of "savagry", it was in the context of partying in the streets. Those people don't need or want proof. They simply take the word of the media and gov't and run with it. The people who are requesting proof however, (I'll count myself in as one of them) aren't doing so in order to gloat. It's more out of wanting some kind of logical closure rather than resorting to a fake sense of security. Put bluntly, the kind of people (IMO) who don't care for proof, are more prone to gloating because it justifies and reinforces that false sense of security.

Secondly, I highly disagree with your assessment that presenting photos would exasperate "any" situation. The scenario as it is, has enough hairy legs to stand on, on its own and requires no further assistance. Providing photos would, if anything, bring a more sensitive viewpoint, and humanizing aspect of the situation to the table. Any other type of reaction would serve as proof that we're not quite as civilized as we'd like to think.

Doug
 
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10,000 U.S lives, 200 wounded, 1 trillion borrowed debt, 2 million plus Iraq killed, 4 million displaced, all this for what? No one is a winner with this mess!! Stop kidding ourselves.
 
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cwa107

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10,000 U.S lives, 200 wounded, 1 trillion borrowed debt, 2 million plus Iraq killed, 4 million displaced, all this for what? No one is a winner with this mess!! Stop kidding ourselves.

I think that question would be better asked of the Islamic extremists who brought this on.

Regardless, we didn't ask for it - and capitulating to the demands of the murderers who brought it on, simply wasn't an option.
 
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10,000 U.S lives, 200 wounded, 1 trillion borrowed debt, 2 million plus Iraq killed, 4 million displaced, all this for what? No one is a winner with this mess!! Stop kidding ourselves.

They asked for it. And, I mean that in a literal (not figurative) sense. Doing nothing about it would be kidding ourselves. Doing a slack-arsed job of it would likely be worse still.

Their stated goals, in part...

Al Qaeda: Statements and Evolving Ideology

Summary:
-We find governments not based on Sharia Judicial Law to be offensive and unacceptable and are obligated to remedy these situations.
-Your secular democracy is not based on Sharia Judicial Law, and thus has no veracity as a democracy at all.
-You are also friends of our enemy, Israel.
-There are specific remedies for exactly these things.
-The remedies are taxation, slavery and/or death.
-We will kill you with a clear conscience.

If you can figure out a compromise, negotiation or understanding that could be worked out and practically implemented given this basic framework of belief, I'm all ears...
Leaving the Middle-East does not address these issues or change anything as stated in their own agenda. ie: we don't get to say "sorry" and just exit. Their grievances include, and go beyond geopolitical presence and are rooted in an ideology based on their particular interpretation of spiritual mandates. These mandates are not open to debate, revision or modernization. Changing our form of government from a secular to a Sharia-based democracy seems unlikely. We are also unlikely to wash our hands of Israel at this time. What is your proposal?
 

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When speaking of "savagry", it was in the context of partying in the streets. Those people don't need or want proof. They simply take the word of the media and gov't and run with it. The people who are requesting proof however, (I'll count myself in as one of them) aren't doing so in order to gloat. It's more out of wanting some kind of logical closure rather than resorting to a fake sense of security. Put bluntly, the kind of people (IMO) who don't care for proof, are more prone to gloating because it justifies and reinforces that false sense of security.
Perhaps the people partying aren't the ones who need proof. It doesn't really matter who's asking for it though. Demanding that the pictures be released won't be a request with the intent of gloating but that's sure to be what it will look like for some. Imagine if you will a group had killed someone you respected and initially decided not to show the pictures. You have to deal with that at the time which is punishment enough. Later, the group responsible for killing that individual you respect decides to publish the picture and circulate it. Would that not further enrage you? I realize that, for many, the last thing you want to do is show any semblance of respect for that group but if you show the picture, you won't be helping the situation that will likely come back to affect you.

Providing photos would, if anything, bring a more sensitive viewpoint, and humanizing aspect of the situation to the table.
Building on what I said earlier, I fail to see how showing a picture of someone who was shot in the head would be "sensitive" or "humanizing." I'm very well aware of the context here (in that I know who was killed). Perhaps it's just an issue of semantics in that you mean something very different than what I see as "sensitive" or "humanizing" because as I see it, showing a picture of someone who was shot in the head and circulating it is far from humanizing when you consider what humanize means: "To imbue with humaneness or human kindness; civilize" (source, emphasis added). I don't think it's civilized in any way but to each their own.

Just as a note and I failed to state this earlier - I realize that you're from New York City (I believe) so I realize that this has a very different meaning for you. If you were directly (or indirectly) affected by the events of 9/11, my apologies if I come across as insensitive and know that this is by no means my intention. I'm just trying to look for the best logical way to prevent something like this from happening again and that's where my views come from.
 
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Perhaps the people partying aren't the ones who need proof. It doesn't really matter who's asking for it though. Demanding that the pictures be released won't be a request with the intent of gloating but that's sure to be what it will look like for some. Imagine if you will a group had killed someone you respected and initially decided not to show the pictures. You have to deal with that at the time which is punishment enough. Later, the group responsible for killing that individual you respect decides to publish the picture and circulate it. Would that not further enrage you? I realize that, for many, the last thing you want to do is show any semblance of respect for that group but if you show the picture, you won't be helping the situation that will likely come back to affect you.

Building on what I said earlier, I fail to see how showing a picture of someone who was shot in the head would be "sensitive" or "humanizing." I'm very well aware of the context here (in that I know who was killed). Perhaps it's just an issue of semantics in that you mean something very different than what I see as "sensitive" or "humanizing" because as I see it, showing a picture of someone who was shot in the head and circulating it is far from humanizing when you consider what humanize means: "To imbue with humaneness or human kindness; civilize" (source, emphasis added). I don't think it's civilized in any way but to each their own.

Just as a note and I failed to state this earlier - I realize that you're from New York City (I believe) so I realize that this has a very different meaning for you. If you were directly (or indirectly) affected by the events of 9/11, my apologies if I come across as insensitive and know that this is by no means my intention. I'm just trying to look for the best logical way to prevent something like this from happening again and that's where my views come from.

I guess I can also agree with your points here, and see where you're coming from. It's pure logic, but from another standpoint. I suppose I was thinking more about US, rather than how it would affect THEM in terms of distributing evidence of his death. Of course it would only further serve to entice them.. no doubt. But would it really matter? They only want to destroy us anyway.. no matter what. So to be honest, and I guess this will make me out to be a hypocrite, but... I don't care about the feelings of the terrorists. Do I care about the feelings of muslims in general? Sure..because not all muslims are terrorists, of course.

And there's no doubt in my mind that hundreds of thousands of muslims would rather have OBL dead than anything else.

Of course, it's hard for me to use pure logic here.. When the first plane hit, somewhere around 9am that morning, I was living less than a mile away. I heard the sound of the plane striking the tower, and had the unfortunate privilege of being able to go out on to my 16th floor terrace, watching the smoke plume grow larger and larger. My first thought was of my friends who were in that building... I spent time volunteering help, did what I could to keep my self together and help friends who lived even closer than I did and had to be evacuated because of the air etc...

News of OBL's death didn't really feel like much of anything to me to be honest.. despite having lost people that day. I can't exactly say why, to be honest. I suppose it's because I know that his "job" will simply be passed down to yet another maniac and that it's silly and premature to celebrate anything. I'd LOVE to celebrate, but can't see doing so until someone tells me that ALL of the madness in the world has ceased. But that ain't gunna happen in my life time.

Also, let's not forget the fact that OBL was an agent working for the CIA trading information at one point. It's ridiculous to think that our government in "doing what they had to do", in order to keep up politics as usual, didn't bring this upon themselves. Same thing goes for Saddam and any other tyrant whom we've traded information or some other form of power with... We do what we do when it's convenient for us, (by we I mean our leaders) but when things go south, the hellfire doesn't land on them.. it lands on US, the civilians. Such as the way of greed, politics and power in this world.. always has been, always will be I'm afraid.

Anyway, I think it's important to remember that all of us here are together in this, regardless of our political or religious views. And that means more to me personally, than needing proof of one mans death.

Doug
 

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