Sweden fights Assange bail as Michael Moore offers to host WikiLeaks

the8thark · Dec 19, 2010

Sweden fights Assange bail as Michael Moore offers to host WikiLeaks
Sweden fights Assange bail as Michael Moore offers to host WikiLeaks

They should just ship him back to Australia. That is his home. The world is just mad that all their dirty little secrets were found out by him and they want to shut him up. Personally I think him and his wikileaks are amazing. I'm glad the little person is standing up and blowing the whistle on the corruption in the world.

baggss · Dec 19, 2010

Releasing classified info and exposing corruption are two different things. I'd support him if all he was doing was exposing corruption, but releasing information that can get people killed is a bit over the top. That being said though, he didn't access the info personally it was given to him. The access point should have been cut off long ago but it was not. That's just dumb.

louishen · Dec 19, 2010

If everybody didn't panic about this then it would have been less of a big deal.

Really, so far it has been some released diplomatic gossip, a few off the cuff remarks, but nothing earth shaking.

If they had revealed that the Isrealis were behind 9/11, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a secret cross-dresser, or revealed the secret alien base underneath the Antarctic ice then that would have been major.

iggibar · Dec 19, 2010

You can't expect panic just yet when all they've released is just the tip of an iceberg's tip! I don't think anything as demeaning as the government thought was going to be released, has been released yet. If they released something about 9/11, it's going to be something that the government doesn't want the people to know.

I'm surprised that the us gov hasn't called any of these current releases fake.

XJ-linux · Dec 19, 2010

The guy is a jerk. I hope Michael Moore eats him.

harryb2448 · Dec 19, 2010

Who is releasing all these secret cables. Assange is only the vehicle surely the security breaches are within the Defense and/or State Departments?

XJ-linux · Dec 19, 2010

harryb2448 said:
Who is releasing all these secret cables. Assange is only the vehicle surely the security breaches are within the Defense and/or State Departments?

Pfc. Bradley Manning is the person who has been charged thus far. He faces 52 years if convicted of the "leaking info" charges and death if the Treason charges are eventually filed. Wikileaks has not identified him as their source(s), but they have offered to contribute to his defense. Thus far they have contributed nothing.

TattooedMac · Dec 19, 2010

XJ-linux said:
The guy is a jerk. I hope Michael Moore eats him.

Well with what MM is into, i think these 2 jokers will get on like a house on fire...

@ Harry Mate i agree, i think the governments need to dig deeper to find where the real leaks are coming from

the8thark · Dec 19, 2010

baggss said:
Releasing classified info and exposing corruption are two different things. I'd support him if all he was doing was exposing corruption, but releasing information that can get people killed is a bit over the top. That being said though, he didn't access the info personally it was given to him. The access point should have been cut off long ago but it was not. That's just dumb.

It's all about spin. In one light releasing it can get people killed. And in another light not releasing it can get people killed. And I'm sure the lawyers on both sides are working out the best way to spin the facts.

And if the leaks are getting out then I blame the governments and other groups for letting the leaks happen. They need to as said in other posts here, forget these silly lawsuits and find the real whistle blowers.

But to me this whole thing is trying to make governments accountable for their actions. For so long any wrongdoings of the worlds governments are swept under the carpet like they can do no wrong. In business if you do wrong you feel the consequences of this by no sales. But in government if one corrupt party up against another just as corrupt. So there is no really good government to vote for. So you need to blow the whistle to keep the government accountable to it's actions.

baggss · Dec 19, 2010

the8thark said:
It's all about spin. In one light releasing it can get people killed. And in another light not releasing it can get people killed. And I'm sure the lawyers on both sides are working out the best way to spin the facts.

Spin has exactly ZERO to do with it. Spin only comes into play when those who would see others get hurt by the improper use of information have it in their hands. It's classified information not intended for general public dissemination. I'd really like to see an explanation on how NOT releasing classified information is getting people killed. Most of the stuff he has is classified for a reason (not all though). If it is released to the people who NEED to know it, I'm not sure how that is putting anyones life in danger except those who's lives are put in danger by the very nature of their jobs.

Sure, some of the info is embarrassing to the US government (all Governments have this) and some of it is far more damaging and dangerous than a few red faces. The embarrassment only hurts the administration, the other stuff hurts folks who are not politically involved but may be negatively impacted by by someone with a vendetta.

I do agree about finding the source of the leaks. If you understood how the classified info system works you might realize just how hard that can be. If the Pfc they have in custody was the source, then it's done. There are other safeguards that have been put in place but frankly they took far to long to implement once they knew their was a problem with the system.

I don't see this having anything to do with corruption and I'm not sure what supposed corruption has been exposed by this. Airing dirty laundry isn't exposing corruption.

Lbatson21 · Dec 19, 2010

More power to the guy and everyone else supporting it. Why are there secrets and spies anyway? Probably because if the general public knew what all went on they wouldn't put up with it. Its all just meant to make some people feel more important than others and makes everything more complicated than it should be. People can't get along and its kind of sad where we're headed. Glad someone at least attempts to get some truth out there before we don't have a chance and we never will know anything except what they want us to. Years ago before the media outlets were purchased to feed us b/s this would have been called investigative reporting.

baggss · Dec 19, 2010

Lbatson21 said:
Why are there secrets and spies anyway?

Um, a little thing called human nature?

You are assuming that all "classified" information must somehow be bad or destructive in nature. Far from it.

Lbatson21 · Dec 19, 2010

Um, a little thing called human nature?

Maybe some humans nature...

You are assuming that all "classified" information must somehow be bad or destructive in nature. Far from it.

And you're assuming that I was assuming anything. I never said anything you just came up with and this is what causes most of the problems out there.

XJ-linux · Dec 19, 2010

If they can prove that an American conspired with a foreign national to obtain the documents and then release them to said foreign national, they can charge the American for treason and the foreign national with espionage. Believe it or not, this is viewed as legally different than a government employee merely stealing documents and just dumping them on some journalist unsolicited. These are capital crimes according to US Code and because these people have no apparent State sponsors, there would appear to be little of trade value in deferring prosecution. No, I don't mean trading a spy for a spy. I mean intelligence about an enemy or insight into their methods, motivations, trade-craft and structural coherence. He's a man without a haven right now.

Anyhow, I have to believe that since the cat is out of the bag as far as the leaks go, there is less motivation to show restraint as far as going full out on snagging these creeps, their employees and those who contributed safe haven, money and materiel to their efforts. I'm sure there is also every motivation to use the confusion, suspicion and paranoia to clean house relating to enemies foreign and domestic. Were it me, I'd probably spin it all and toss out some info I was dying to leak on an enemy, but couldn't leak due to a lack of deniability. Mr. Assange has presented himself as a great target to pin whatever on and let some unsavory types, other than my team, take the risk of sanctioning him. Maybe I could even put something out there with Mr. Assange's name attached, that would manipulate two of my enemies to start fighting each other and thus weaken them both in relation to myself. Al Qaeda -vs- Los Zetas anyone? Maybe leak something (true or false) to allow a weak leader to overcome a stronger leader within an organization of interest to make an easier to manage objective? When something like this drags you down, you can bring your enemies down to keep the relative advantage in your favor. Mr. Assange would make an excellent Lee Harvey.

baggss · Dec 19, 2010

Lbatson21 said:
Maybe some humans nature....

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you were somehow superior to the rest of the human race.

Lbatson21 said:
And you're assuming that I was assuming anything. I never said anything you just came up with and this is what causes most of the problems out there.

Am I, or are you just trying to play it off like I'm the one who's misunderstanding here?

So you were not making assumptions? Ok. I had had hoped you were not as naive as you sound. Guess I was wrong.

XJ-linux said:
If they can prove that an American conspired with a foreign national to obtain the documents and then release them to said foreign national, they can charge the American for treason and the foreign national with espionage. Believe it or not, this is viewed as legally different than a government employee merely stealing documents and just dumping them on some journalist unsolicited. These are capital crimes according to US Code and because these people have no apparent State sponsors, there would appear to be little of trade value in deferring prosecution. No, I don't mean trading a spy for a spy. I mean intelligence about an enemy or insight into their methods, motivations, trade-craft and structural coherence. He's a man without a haven right now.

Anyhow, I have to believe that since the cat is out of the bag as far as the leaks go, there is less motivation to show restraint as far as going full out on snagging these creeps, their employees and those who contributed safe haven, money and materiel to their efforts. I'm sure there is also every motivation to use the confusion, suspicion and paranoia to clean house relating to enemies foreign and domestic. Were it me, I'd probably spin it all and toss out some info I was dying to leak on an enemy, but couldn't leak due to a lack of deniability. Mr. Assange has presented himself as a great target to pin whatever on and let some unsavory types, other than my team, take the risk of sanctioning him. Maybe I could even put something out there with Mr. Assange's name attached, that would manipulate two of my enemies to start fighting each other and thus weaken them both in relation to myself. Al Qaeda -vs- Los Zetas anyone? Maybe leak something (true or false) to allow a weak leader to overcome a stronger leader within an organization of interest to make an easier to manage objective? When something like this drags you down, you can bring your enemies down to keep the relative advantage in your favor. Mr. Assange would make an excellent Lee Harvey.

That.

the8thark · Dec 20, 2010

baggss said:
I'd really like to see an explanation on how NOT releasing classified information is getting people killed.

That I can do.

In Australia last year I think there was a scheme to insulate the inside of people's house roofs. And the government was doing the service for almost free. And the government got people to do the service for people. But the government found out 2 things about this.

1. If people got their own contractors to do the work and just invoice the government it's cost way less. But doing the same thing the government way cost way more money.

2. The materials used in the insulation material were potentially toxic.

And Point 1 was bound to happen and it did. But the government was like hmmm we will keep point 2 classified information cause it'll just panic the workers. But number 2 came to be true and a few people died through this scheme. And is was big news all over Australia. If people only knew about this they could have taken the right safety procedures and no lives would have been lost.

And here is a link for proof.
Greg Combet scraps botched home insulation scheme | The Australian

And to that link is a comment which exactly describes the deaths involved with this scheme.

so ,once again a failed program, and where was mr rudd and minister garrett who were both all over the media when they made the big announcement ,as usual ducking for cover,and where were worksafe officers when people died putting the batts in? they have been VERY silent, so roll on the new health reforms which will go the same way.

So that is proof NOT releasing classified information at times can and did lead lead to people's deaths. in this case the deaths of some of the Australian workers who installed the toxic home insulation.

baggss · Dec 20, 2010

the8thark said:
That I can do.

In Australia last year I think there was a scheme to insulate the inside of people's house roofs. And the government was doing the service for almost free. And the government got people to do the service for people. But the government found out 2 things about this.

1. If people got their own contractors to do the work and just invoice the government it's cost way less. But doing the same thing the government way cost way more money.

2. The materials used in the insulation material were potentially toxic.

And Point 1 was bound to happen and it did. But the government was like hmmm we will keep point 2 classified information cause it'll just panic the workers. But number 2 came to be true and a few people died through this scheme. And is was big news all over Australia. If people only knew about this they could have taken the right safety procedures and no lives would have been lost.

And here is a link for proof.
Greg Combet scraps botched home insulation scheme | The Australian

And to that link is a comment which exactly describes the deaths involved with this scheme.

So that is proof NOT releasing classified information at times can and did lead lead to people's deaths. in this case the deaths of some of the Australian workers who installed the toxic home insulation.

That is a completely different type of info than has been leaked. If THAT were the kind of information that was being leaked, I would have zero issue with it. That is the kind of info that is damaging to a govt with it's own people, not the kind that deal with foreign policy, military strategy or any number of other things. I'm talking sensitive govt info, not something a minister covers up because he or she is an idiot and from what I have read that isn't the kind of info that has been "exposed" so far.

Considering the source, as far as we know, was inside the US Military, the kind of classified information we are talking about is of a completely different nature. I don't think the US Army, or military in general, would really have much to do with something like that (maybe Au is different).

Interesting read and I see what you are talking about but I suspect this is an Apples and Oranges thing here. You all seem to be thinking of this as an "exposing corruption" scandal as opposed to to an actual release of classified military or diplomatic information that can have a negative impact on US foreign policy and Military strategy abroad. These are completely different things and I doesn't appear that Mr Assange was really shooting for the first. If he was, those sly Au Govt ministers better watch their backs!

the8thark · Dec 20, 2010

baggss said:
That is a completely different type of info than has been leaked. If THAT were the kind of information that was being leaked, I would have zero issue with it. That is the kind of info that is damaging to a govt with it's own people, not the kind that deal with foreign policy, military strategy or any number of other things. I'm talking sensitive govt info, not something a minister covers up because he or she is an idiot and from what I have read that isn't the kind of info that has been "exposed" so far.

I agree. But if it's not leaked then you don't know what kind of info it is. The British government have 30, 50 and 100 year rules for this kind of thing. They release the info always. But but only after 30, 50 or 100 years. And by then the relevance of said info is long since gone. It's great for historians not no one else cares so long after the events the info pertains to.

And I agree some of the things on wikileaks are military and other secrets but others are not. But if the US and other governments were serious about keeping their secrets secret they'd act like the SAS (British and Australian). They are the best at keeping their war plans tip top secret as to surprise the enemy and not let the public know what's going on.

But the funny thing is most of the public don't really care about all of this. They just want to get on with their lives. But it's things like wikileaks that make people look and take interest.

And about the US strategy overseas, I really believe they need to not tell the world where they are going and what they are doing before they do it. I see it on the TV here. Some politician in the defence department get up on his soap box and tells the world exactly what their grand plan will be. Like it's some master strategy they want the whole world to know and watch them succeed in it. Sure most times they do succeed in it. But I think they should do like the British and Australian military does. And don't tell the world your plans before you do them.

baggss said:
Considering the source, as far as we know, was inside the US Military, the kind of classified information we are talking about is of a completely different nature. I don't think the US Army, or military in general, would really have much to do with something like that (maybe Au is different).

The country of origin has no difference in the nature of the leaks. Any leak matters to the country it pertains to. I do feel for the US people when bad things happen to them as I do for my own Australian people. And I'm sure many many whistle blowers all over the world are contributing to the leaks on wikileaks.

XJ-linux · Dec 20, 2010

the8thark said:
But if it's not leaked then you don't know what kind of info it is.

Sounds like one of our beloved US politicians “But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it..."

Classic!

baggss · Dec 20, 2010

the8thark said:
I agree. But if it's not leaked then you don't know what kind of info it is. The British government have 30, 50 and 100 year rules for this kind of thing. They release the info always. But but only after 30, 50 or 100 years. And by then the relevance of said info is long since gone. It's great for historians not no one else cares so long after the events the info pertains to.

The US does the same thing. Saying you don't know what it is until it's leaked is kind of silly. If it's classified at whatever level then it's only meant to be seen by those whho need to see it, not the public in general. It seems to me as if you are looking at this from a POV that any secret is bad, therefore it should be leaked. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how it's coming across.

the8thark said:
And I agree some of the things on wikileaks are military and other secrets but others are not. But if the US and other governments were serious about keeping their secrets secret they'd act like the SAS (British and Australian). They are the best at keeping their war plans tip top secret as to surprise the enemy and not let the public know what's going on.

Upside is that none of THAT type of info appears to have been leaked. The individual who had access didn't have high level acces to information. That doesn't mean that the information wasn't sensitive or could cost people their lives though. In some cases just what is said can cause issues, especially when it come to diplomatic cables that we know were released. If those can be proven to have cost any lives, the leaker(s) deserve the same fate.

the8thark said:
But the funny thing is most of the public don't really care about all of this. They just want to get on with their lives. But it's things like wikileaks that make people look and take interest.

Most of this stuff is very boring and most people couldn't care less. I's not the average Joe on the street that is interested though, it's people who would use it against us.

the8thark said:
And about the US strategy overseas, I really believe they need to not tell the world where they are going and what they are doing before they do it. I see it on the TV here. Some politician in the defence department get up on his soap box and tells the world exactly what their grand plan will be. Like it's some master strategy they want the whole world to know and watch them succeed in it. Sure most times they do succeed in it. But I think they should do like the British and Australian military does. And don't tell the world your plans before you do them.

I agree, but that's just stupid political correctness in the system. Pretty much the whole western world suffers from it but the US is going through a an extra bout of it at this point.

the8thark said:
The country of origin has no difference in the nature of the leaks. Any leak matters to the country it pertains to. I do feel for the US people when bad things happen to them as I do for my own Australian people. And I'm sure many many whistle blowers all over the world are contributing to the leaks on wikileaks.

I'm not sure how many "whistle blowers" are involved, but the Pfc isn't a whistle blower in the sense of which you speak. Military information is a different catagoiry and he deserves to spend the rest of life in a Military prison if not being executed for his part in this. The comment about the Austrailians was ment jokingly btw.