Apple dropping Java in Lion

Being a Java enterprise developer on Mac this one caught my attention. I'm personally not that concerned. I always wanted Mac to drop their JVM implementation and support third-party JVMs like Linux and Windows.

What do others think: rumor or real? If they drop Java and no viable alternative replaces it that will be the end of my Mac experiment and back to Linux. I hope not because I really enjoy developing on Mac.

Post a link or it's just an unsubstantiated rumour.

Apple To Remove Java from Mac OS X?

Click on the url embedded in the article.

Apple clearly states it in their 10.6.3 release notes Java is deprecated in future OS X versions but will continue to be supported in Tiger and Leopard. That's a bit vague and no official comment from Apple yet. If they drop it in Lion I don't think that leaves enough time for alternatives unless current third-party JVMs are supported in Lion.

Here is the link in that article
Java for Mac OS X 10.6 Update 3 and 10.5 Update 8 Release Notes

As of the release of Java for Mac OS X 10.6 Update 3, the version of Java that is ported by Apple, and that ships with Mac OS X, is deprecated.

This means that the Apple-produced runtime will not be maintained at the same level, and may be removed from future versions of Mac OS X. The Java runtime shipping in Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard, and Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard, will continue to be supported and maintained through the standard support cycles of those products.

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So pretty much Apple is saying Java will be supported in 10.6 and might be dropped for 10.7. Apple has said nothing about if there will be a Java replacement or not.

I may be mistaken, but can't one just compile the runtimes themselves if Apple quits supplying it? It's not that monumental of a task.

osxx said:

Steve Jobs responds to Apple’s Java discontinuation warning | 9 to 5 Mac Steve Jobs responds to Apple’s Java discontinuation warning | Apple Intelligence

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So let me get this straight…Apple released Java updates via Software Update- but they were a version behind? So now what is going to happen? Java releases its own Software Update package for Mac? I love Java!

On most of the big platforms (Windows, Linux, and Sun's own Solaris) Oracle/Sun has supplied the Java runtime. Sun did this because it wanted to promote the use of Java everywhere. (Microsoft even tried to sabotage Java by creating its own incompatible version for a time.)

On the smaller Unix platforms, like AIX and HP-UX, the OS vendor maintains the JVM, because IBM and HP wanted to promote their server platforms for big companies that use Java. In essence, they subsidize Sun's product on their platforms rather than risk not having it.

Apple has been in the second camp for a long time. Apple maintained the OS X version of Java to ensure that OS X could play ball.

Apple has basically decided that Mac OS X is a big enough platform that Apple should no longer have to subsidize the OS X version of Java. It's betting that Sun/Oracle will take over development rather than let the second biggest desktop platform go without Java.

XJ-linux said:

I may be mistaken, but can't one just compile the runtimes themselves if Apple quits supplying it? It's not that monumental of a task.

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It's been done (the project is called "SoyLatte") but it has no GUI and no browser plugin for applets. OpenJDK only includes support for X11; Apple has always delivered a custom bridge for Aqua.

Chris H. said:

So let me get this straight…Apple released Java updates via Software Update- but they were a version behind? So now what is going to happen? Java releases its own Software Update package for Mac? I love Java!

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Ironically, this latest version of Java (Update 3) on Snow Leopard is exactly in sync with the latest version from Oracle.

This is the first time I can remember that this has been the case. Apple's Java releases have usually been a little behind Oracle/Sun.

I agree with what Steve said. Personally I see no reason why Apple should be distributing anyone else's software. Let Oracle maintain it and offer it for download.

Same goes for Adobe with Flash.

Personally I think Java is way past its prime and can't wait to see it die.

I think this is more a case of the Mac share got large enough enough for Sun to wake up and go "Wow maybe we had better to make a version of Java runtime for OS X". And as soon as Apple heard this they went "Yay about time now we don't have to compile and release someone else's software to our OS X customers".

This in essence is a good thing. Let Sun update their software for the 2nd biggest/most popular PC OS. But the downside is that we might not get the Java updates from software update anymore. As software update as far as I know is only for Apple updates. And since Java won't be released by Apple anymore I think we'l be at the whim of Sun for releases. But if Sun is smart they'll keep the OS X releases inline with the Windows ones.

schweb said:

I agree with what Steve said. Personally I see no reason why Apple should be distributing anyone else's software. Let Oracle maintain it and offer it for download.

Same goes for Adobe with Flash.

Personally I think Java is way past its prime and can't wait to see it die.

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Me too…it's too bloated, uses lots of processing power (bad for heat and also battery life in portable devices), and is crash-prone.

I guess Apple is pushing HTML5 and h264?

Java is definitely past it's prime.

I actually went quite a while on linux before I had to install jdk on my system.

Java's value today is mostly as a server-side technology. Developers need it. Consumers, of course, don't.

This means that it's not a priority for Apple to continue development, and there's no reason that it should.

Stanley said:

Me too…it's too bloated, uses lots of processing power (bad for heat and also battery life in portable devices), and is crash-prone.

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You're probably talking about the Java Applet browser plugin, which is probably the worst use of Java ever. Fortunately, it's extremely rare these days (mostly, people use Flash instead.) It's also easy to turn off.

If that's not what you're talking about, I have no idea why you would be of that opinion.

schweb said:

Personally I think Java is way past its prime and can't wait to see it die.

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And what would you replace it with?

Microsoft's C# is the only viable alternative, and that's not a road I'd like to go down.

I was thinking of getting a new macbook pro, but was thinking of java projects in the future.

I wonder if there will be a lapse in cover to see if Sun picks up the torch when Apple drops it??

Do you think that Java would totally go to the wayside and not be offered on the mac os??

Alot of computer science programs teach in Java and if it was not offered would pretty much make you have to use a windows box or I guess bootcamp and windows.

Dropping JAVA dumb move

This move by Apple is almost as dumb as not support Flash and JAVA on the iPhone/iPad.

Apple seems to have forgot that Adobe's work on quality Mac versions including Flash help popularize the Mac in recent years.

Likewise JAVA brought many Apps to the Mac in the days when the native Apps were sparse and many times lacked important features. I remember in the early 0's when most of the Apps I used on the Mac were either JAVA or X11 ports.

Even today there are many tools used by industry specific professionals where there is not enough demand to create a Cocoa Mac only app.

The most immediate concerns are unlike some posts there are still quite a number of sites that use JAVA applets. In addition there are many network devices that load a JAVA applet for there control. So JAVA at least on a full blown computer and browser is mandatory these days.

Some say let someone else do the Apple JAVA VM and this would probably happen but at first the quality of this (at least AWT/Swing) would probably be poor and push users away from the Mac as a result.

The other issue for Apple is whats next, dropping X11 support, dropping support for Carbon Apps, inhibiting the use of according to Apple Adobe's Security flawed flash. It creates uncertainty for developers and coming fro one I have little interest in learning Apple's way (Cocoa and Objective C).

The right move for Apple if they want to get away from maintaining the port is to open source the entire port including all the graphics frameworks and the already deprecated Cocoa extentions. Then encourage someone else to pick up maintenance of this with the offer of assistance. Also stop disparaging Adobe and Sun/Oracle they need friends to help keep Mac OS X the second or maybe someday the most used client OS.

skull33 said:

This move by Apple is almost as dumb as not support Flash and JAVA on the iPhone/iPad.

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I'm sure Apple have their reasons for not directly supporting Java anymore. And Apple/s moves over the past 1 years made them the 2nd most valuable company in the world. So they obviously did something right. Don't be quick to dismiss this as a bad idea as you have with the anti flash move.

The anti-flash move on the other hand obviously worked cause the iOS devices are still selling in record numbers. So people either agree with Apple or don't care either way.

skull33 said:

Apple seems to have forgot that Adobe's work on quality Mac versions including Flash help popularize the Mac in recent years.

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Yes Adobe have made a few good Apps. Photoshop being one of them. But their flash is NOT one of the good ones. In the past flash had it's use and was relatively good but these days it's just an outdated codec sorely in need of being replaced with something better.

And to the rest of your post I say if it's Apple's with to slowly let Java die, then so be it. I'm sure Apple would be working on a replacement if this was the case. OS X did not become the best PC OS over night. It was done be a lot of people making a lot of hard decisions. And Luckily for Apple most of these hard decisions were the right ones.

And it's not Apple who need to be nice on Adobe/Sun as you say. You have it backwards. It's Adobe/Sun who need to get with the program, create revenant and modern codecs for the modern OS's or simply be left behind. In my opinion the best time to move to a new idea/codec/technology is when the new idea/codec/technology is fresh in people's minds and still new (but past beta obviously). This gives people time to upgrade and transfer their networks over to the new system. And if you insist on sticking with old outdated technologies, you only do one thing. Sure you keep people happy cause they don't have to update their systems (which costs money, but you hinder technological progress. To implement the new and better, the old has to go.

the8thark said:

The anti-flash move on the other hand obviously worked cause the iOS devices are still selling in record numbers. So people either agree with Apple or don't care either way.

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Exactly!!! I find it HILARIOUS when people complain and lament about iPhones not having flash, when Apple continues to sell every iPhone it produces - even after increasing production.

Reply to Flash and JAVA arguments

As for Apple's recent success yes they have made some good business decisions and have also benefited from a lot of luck and poor competition. Although I just have to say three words "Microsoft, Netscape, Yahoo" as proof that what goes up will come down as all three both in terms of market valuation and technology rose and then fell over the course of a decade.

Do most users of the iPhone want a fully capable browser that includes flash and JAVA SE, yes of course almost as much as they would like to be able to complete a phone call but both seem a long way away.

With that said the iPhones success is mostly due to the utter failure of other smart phone attempts by Symbian (too primitive), MicroSoft (just overall bad), Palm (some success but bad marketing), Blackberry (successful but too corporate), and now Android that is giving Apple a run for its money but faces problems with system market fragmentation and app quality and performance (improved dramatically on recent phones under Android 2.2 with JIT) and it will have flash support by years end.

So right now if call quality in not a high priority the iPhone is the best alternative and in the whole scheme of things its slightly higher price is negligible compared to the high cost of two years of a voice/data plan from any of the major carriers. However this already appears to be changing in Androids favor even though Android is currently technically inferior.

I agree neither Flash or JAVA are perfect but neither is HTML 5 or AJAX and each has its place but right now Flash and JAVA are widely deployed and entrenched and this is not likely to change in the near future or because Apple wishes them away.

Getting back to JAVA on Mac OS X I can see Apple's arguments due to size and performance for not currently putting JAVA SE on the iPhone/iPad but under Mac OS X I cannot: It makes up just a small fraction of the code base, runs on powerful computers, has been there for years, and at one point in the early 0's (although I cannot find a copy of the article readily) they evangelized JAVA as the the prime development environment for Mac OS X I guess figuring they could leverage the huge JAVA developer experience base.

It just seems silly to me being that not that much has changed over the past decade: JAVA is still most popular development environment (if you include corporate internal projects), its open source and cross platform, huge JAVA developer experience base, large selection of third party cross platform class libraries, backed by two giants in the computing world, etc.

It is a mystery to me as to why Apple would not want to continue to be a big part of this growing movement especially since the costs for them continuing to do so seems minimal.

skull33 said:

This move by Apple is almost as dumb as not support Flash and JAVA on the iPhone/iPad.

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You do know that Windows doesn't include Java or Flash either right? It's actually more standard to not include it.

Apple seems to have forgot that Adobe's work on quality Mac versions including Flash help popularize the Mac in recent years.

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This is absolutely incorrect and I suggest you do some research. Adobe apps have always been on the Mac and have always been the choice for designers, they are not responsible for the growth in the Macs popularity.

Likewise JAVA brought many Apps to the Mac in the days when the native Apps were sparse and many times lacked important features. I remember in the early 0's when most of the Apps I used on the Mac were either JAVA or X11 ports.

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Just because something was used in the past, does not mean it's important now. Punch cards used to be important, but I certainly see no need Apple should have to support them, or Cobol for that matter.

You also seem to be forgetting the fact that Apple is not saying Java (or Flash) cannot be used on the Mac, they're just saying their not going to be responsible for distributing it anymore. If you're that passionate about it, you're getting upset at the wrong people...complain to Oracle about why the don't distribute a Mac version.

But we'll see where your posts go, because honestly given the numerous incorrect statements and inflammatory judgements you're making, you so far seem to be filling the definition of trolling.