New iMac - wipe to install Leopard - Apple say no - thoughts?

Hi guys, this is more a discussion than a specific question, so...

A friend of mine has just bought a brand new, but older (2009) model iMac 20", 2.66Ghz, 320 HD, 2 gig Ram, which comes with Snow Leopard installed. All fine and dandy there.

Now, he has his own advertising company (classified ads in newspapers etc.) and therefore he uses Quark (7) a lot.
Having been reading around, there is no official support from Quark for 7 in Snow Leopard, and there have been some issues with font's (though they do seem to have been solved with 10.6.4). Of course there is an upgrade to Quark 8, at a not inconsiderable cost of £330!
My suggestion to him (and I do all his Mac maintenance stuff) was that we could just wipe the drive and do a lovely clean install of Leopard (he has a Leopard disc), and then install Quark 7 and he'd be set to continue his work as normal. No reason why not, right?
Well, he was talking to Apple directly because they are fixing the lined screen on his current 17"iMac (for free btw - result), and he mentioned what I intended to them, and they said that it may cause hardware issues, and not to wipe the drive of Snow Leopard!

Now I think this is utter nonsense! The iMac would have originally come with Leopard installed, not Snow Leopard, which it has clearly been upgraded to, so why on earth would wiping the drive clean cause issues? I can't for the life of me understand the Apple tech's thoughts here.
He suggested that it would be better to partition the drive and install Leopard on the other partition, which I actually think is a bad idea and more likely to cause issues (especially as my friend is not particularly savvy with this stuff, he'll just get confused between the 2!)

As it stands I am just going to set it up with SL, and install Quark 7 anyway, and see if there are problems (feel free to comment if you have experience with this, but I may make another topic about it).

Anyway, sorry it's a long post, but I'd like some opinions on this, just to confirm that I am not wrong.

Cheers guys.

We've had others posting about trying this. The issue - Leopard is not going to have all the drivers available for his newer machine. So, even with a retail or Family pack disc that he could install legally, it may be missing the proper chipset drivers, video drivers, etc.

If it doesn't recognize the hardware, in many cases it will not install at all. You'll just never know till you try it. Apple does not continue developing drivers for an OS older than what ships on the machine.

I know in today's economy, as business owners, we're all trying to keep down costs. But in this case, if Quark 7 doesn't work in SL, i'm afraid your friend will just have to suck it up and get the tools that are required for the operation of his business.

No I agree there, but the point here is that it's a 2009 machine, that originally had Leopard. It's not coming from Apple, but an Apple dealer with old stock, so surely it was designed with Leopard drivers in place? There is no hardware change, it's basically the same machine as my current iMac with the next processor up.

If the machine shipped with Leopard, you could always call Apple and get a set of replacement discs if the retail disc won't install.

If it's one of those crossover models, one that shipped during both 10.5 and 10.6, a retail disc might not have all the drivers, but it's possible that the 10.5.8 combo update might take care of any issue. Just have not seen enough feedback to give you anything definitive. There just haven't been enough folks downgrading to provide specific evidence that I've seen.

Ok. Interesting thoughts Bob, thanks.
We will go with the installing Quark on the SL equipped machine first, because most of the issues are font related, which I am sure can be worked around. Frankly the upgrade charge for Quark is ridiculous. My friend has bought every version from 5 onwards. No discount for loyalty!

Read this thread related to Quark 7.

Hit the first few and then jump down to one dated 14 July by Kevin Mallory and then to 18 July by wooster if you have problems with it. The editor of PlanetQuark says his is working fine and the font issue was solved with the 10.6.2 update.

Thanks Bob. I had read through that the other day, and thought, as I mentioned, that it had been solved.
Appreciate the search though, thanks.

Do keep us posted on this.

If you can't get quark to work properly under LS, I agree a 20" iMac would have come with Leopard stock. I agree with Bob though that it might have been a newer Leopard like say 10.5.4 or something like that. If you can get it to install, just upgrade with a Combo updater.

dtravis7 said:

Do keep us posted on this.

If you can't get quark to work properly under LS, I agree a 20" iMac would have come with Leopard stock. I agree with Bob though that it might have been a newer Leopard like say 10.5.4 or something like that. If you can get it to install, just upgrade with a Combo updater.

Click to expand...

Will do. I actually didn't think that there were these kind of "transition" machines, but I see what you mean, the original OS may have been higher than stock 10.5 and that's where the problem may lie.
Of course I have no way of knowing, as they sellers have shipped it with SL only.

An example I ran into. When the first 1.25Ghz G4 Mini came out, it came with Panther 10.3.5. My older Panther 10.3.0 would not install or boot. Been so long I can't remember which. I tried it because of a thread here with someone having issues. So that very well could be the issue.

Kevriano said:

A friend of mine has just bought a brand new, but older (2009) model iMac 20", 2.66Ghz, 320 HD, 2 gig Ram, which comes with Snow Leopard installed. All fine and dandy there.

My suggestion to him (and I do all his Mac maintenance stuff) was that we could just wipe the drive and do a lovely clean install of Leopard (he has a Leopard disc), and then install Quark 7 and he'd be set to continue his work as normal. No reason why not, right?
Well, he was talking to Apple directly because they are fixing the lined screen on his current 17"iMac (for free btw - result), and he mentioned what I intended to them, and they said that it may cause hardware issues, and not to wipe the drive of Snow Leopard!

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if I'm adding anything significant to the thread (and hopefully not repeating what others have already said)...but if I got the correct system specs...this 2.66ghz 20" 2009 iMac originally shipped with OS 10.5.6.

I'm not sure why it came with 10.6 installed on it...other than maybe it was a machine that was manufactured just before Apple discontinued them...and by that point Snow Leopard was released. This model was discontinued October, 2009...and 10.6 Snow Leopard was released late August, 2009...so between August,2009 and October, 2009...Apple probably started loading them with OS 10.6 rather than 10.5.6.

First let me say that I totally understand why your friend wants to "downgrade" to Leopard in order to use Quark 7. Now I'm not sure exactly what Install Disk version of 10.5 your friend has...but one thing to be careful of is...OS 10.5 Leopard install disks came in various versions. I've had about 10 copies of Leopard pass thru my hands...and they come with different versions of 10.5 on them. I've seen OS install disks with 10.5.0, 10.5.1, 10.5.4, and 10.5.6...there may be even more versions out there.

My point is...if your friends iMac originally shipped with 10.5.6...then nothing lower than 10.5.6 should be installed for the most trouble free compatibility (if a lower version will even install). So the first thing I would do is verify if your friends 10.5 install disk is 10.5.6 or higher (10.5.8 being the last version).

I think that the stuff the Apple Store guys told you was a bunch of:

"I really don't know how to answer this guys question...but since I'm an Apple GENIUS...I got to tell him something...so I'll tell him installing 10.5 on his friends iMac won't work."

Maybe the Apple person really didn't know how to answer your question...and maybe should have said..."I don't know!". But when you're a "Genius" how can you say that!

Hope this helps,

- Nick

Thanks Nick. I know the Leopard disc is 10.5.0 basically just 10.5.
Interesting that you have found what OS it would have had, thanks.
It has come with SL because it's not direct from Apple as I said, though it is an approved dealer of course. They have clearly put SL on to keep the machine current and saleable.
Good stuff mate though, I will definitely go ahead with the Quark 7/SL install now, and then see what comes of it.
Of course I will still have the option of partitioning and installing Leopard if needs be, but I don't think it will be.
Love the Apple Genius remark. I kind of get that impression too. A good friend of mine has worked with Mac's since they first came about, and he very neatly pointed out to one of the so called genii (if that's right!) that he had in fact, been working on Macs since before the person in question was born.

Kevriano said:

Thanks Nick. I know the Leopard disc is 10.5.0 basically just 10.5.
Interesting that you have found what OS it would have had, thanks.
It has come with SL because it's not direct from Apple as I said, though it is an approved dealer of course. They have clearly put SL on to keep the machine current and saleable.
Good stuff mate though, I will definitely go ahead with the Quark 7/SL install now, and then see what comes of it.
Of course I will still have the option of partitioning and installing Leopard if needs be, but I don't think it will be.
Love the Apple Genius remark. I kind of get that impression too. A good friend of mine has worked with Mac's since they first came about, and he very neatly pointed out to one of the so called genii (if that's right!) that he had in fact, been working on Macs since before the person in question was born.

Click to expand...

Two thoughts:

1. If this iMac has 10.6 on it...couldn't you install "Rosetta" to run Quark 7? Then your friend would have the best of both worlds..."Rosetta" for older PowerPC based software compatibility, and 10.6 for newer stuff.

2. Yes...being an older Macintosh person myself...I have to bite my tongue when I go into the Apple Store...and I'm speaking with an "Apple Genius" that is younger than the number of years I've been using Apple computers. But in all honesty...as far as computers & software goes...it seems that the only information that is really "relative" relating to computing info/expertise (when at the Apple Store)...is that info relating to currently selling Macintoshes & maybe 2-3 years (at most) prior.

So if I can "share" an Apple Macintosh story/experience of mine from 1985 with a current younger Apple Store employee...in their head they're probably thinking..."Whatever OLD-DUDE...are you still riding a horse too!"...Ha ha ha!

- Nick

Ah, now the Rosetta thing hadn't crossed my mind. Thanks, will look into that if it's an issue.

Kevriano said:

Ah, now the Rosetta thing hadn't crossed my mind. Thanks, will look into that if it's an issue.

Click to expand...

Rosetta (I believe) is not a default part of the 10.6 install process...so if someone needed it & it wasn't installed initially...then you have to go back & do a custom install (just installing Rosetta on top of the already installed 10.6).

I think that when I've done my own 10.6 install on my computers for the first time...I had to check a box to purposely/custom install Rosetta.

Good luck,

- Nick

pigoo3 said:

Rosetta (I believe) is not a default part of the 10.6 install process...so if someone needed it & it wasn't installed initially...then you have to go back & do a custom install (just installing Rosetta on top of the already installed 10.6).

I think that when I've done my own 10.6 install on my computers for the first time...I had to check a box to purposely/custom install Rosetta.

Good luck,

- Nick

Click to expand...

No it's not, I've just been reading. It's on the SL disc I believe, and is apparently downloadable by the system, so I can certainly look at that. It's a cool little idea actually. Kudos. (I'd rep you but can't! Stupid restrictions)

Kevriano said:

No it's not, I've just been reading. It's on the SL disc I believe, and is apparently downloadable by the system, so I can certainly look at that. It's a cool little idea actually. Kudos. (I'd rep you but can't! Stupid restrictions)

Click to expand...

Good deal...glad the info was helpful!

- Nick

Update:

I've just been to set the Mac up for my friend, and lo and behold it had 10.5.6 installed. They had just supplied the Snow Leopard disc as part of the package, so that saved a shed load of hassle. No Rosetta needed, and Quark runs fine.
The only teething trouble, and this is just typical Apple. No Firewire 400 port of course, so my friends firewire drive is out of use, and we couldn't use migration assistant to transfer stuff over (he has no wi-fi network). So a trip to the iStore is needed to get a firewire 800-400 cable, and another visit from me tomorrow.
Anyway, Nick was right about the stock OS for the machine at least.
I do wish Apple would stick to the same connections and be done with it!

Kevriano said:

Update:

I've just been to set the Mac up for my friend, and lo and behold it had 10.5.6 installed. They had just supplied the Snow Leopard disc as part of the package, so that saved a shed load of hassle. No Rosetta needed, and Quark runs fine.

Click to expand...

Hey that sounds great!!

I had a feeling that this computer may have fallen in between the two month period when Snow Leopard was released & this computer model was discontinued. Sounds like Apple just did a "drop-in disk" for Snow Leopard...and left it up to the new owner to leave 10.5.6 on the hard drive, or immediately upgrade to 10.6.

Awesome everything worked out...due to the owners needs to run older PPC software!

- Nick