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Terrorists strike again

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No matter how hard we try, we will not be able to understand how these radicals think. At the same time, I don't give any "understanding" to them. They could try other ways to get what they want, massacres are not acceptable.

That is what i'm trying to say by that i can't believe anyone understands them.
 
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rs2sensen said:
I like to think that the times when the USA has killed civilians, that those times were accidents. It may be a nieve though, and I may be wrong. But we all must believe something, and that is what I believe.

The terrorists in London killed innocent people. They did not kill soldiers. They did not kill people who wanted to kill them. They killed woman and children. War is war, people die in war on both happens. It happens, thats life. But this is not war. This is MURDER. How can you justify, or if not justify, even attempt to give them understanding?

There are a lot of things that I would "like" to believe, but unfortunately I have tried to live a life of open-mindedness and it keeps, at times, from jumping to conclusions without empirical evidence. Look at America's role in Vietnam. Was it an accident everytime U.S. soldiers raped Vietnamese women and razed villages that contained no VC or even weapons? While the raping has decreased, it still continues to this day and is well documented. The razing of innocent villages still happens today. After that helicopter with 19 U.S. soldiers was shot down, what do you think the U.S. did? They bombed a small village killing hundreds of innocent people. I seriously doubt any of those villagers, at least most, had any wish to kill Americans, whether it be soldiers, women or children. They were just trying to live their lives as peacefully as possible and were subjected to circumstances out of their control. While I do not believe that it is the intention for America to do things like this at all, we must look at the fact that it happens quite frequently. Because officials refuse to keep a death-toll in Iraq we are left to independent surveys, which estimate civillian casualties near 100,000. Considering that no Iraqis were involved in 9/11 that is quite an unjust war, even if Americas intentions were good. Even if all the plane hijackers were from Iraq it doesn't excuse the mass killing of innocent people for retribution.

I'm sure you all are good people that live good lives. I would never wish this on you or anyone else, but try to imagine, if you can, that one day while you were out at the store someone dropped a bomb from a plane onto your house. It would be devastating. More than likely you would want revenge, but possibly you would not have lost all hope and you would pick up the pieces and try to continue living. Now imagine that not only did they drop a bomb on your house, but also on your neighbor's house, the houses along your street and the houses of your relatives. To make matters worse, when you call for help or ask the people who are doing this to stop, you receive no reply or aid. If you can imagine that you may be able to understand, not justify, why people who have lost all hope turn to terrorism. They have come to a point where they have lost hope in receiving help and in ending the horrors that are plaguing their life, and all they can think to do so as to send a clear message to their attackers is something that is radical and unique. They want to inflict the same trauma and fear in our lives that we in West have done to them. Since we attacked their civillians, and many of them, it is our countries that have signalled to them that ANYONE is target. It isn't right. It's not justified. But it's unfortunately what we have to live and deal with because of our actions.

Again, this is not justification, but simply trying to understand what they endure in their lives. We are lucky in the fact that these are not problems that plague our life. We do not have an occupying force in our lands. We are not told how what type of government we can and cannot have. You think choosing to live in a democracy is easy, and if they don't choose to they must be wrong. Could you cope with living all of your life in a totalitarian regime, as well as your parents and grandparents, and then told one day that you have to change to a new type of government that is completely different than what you are accustomed to? It is not something that can be expected from people to adapt to overnight.

Please all just try to keep an open-mind if anything. You don't have to agree with anything at all, but if don't even allow yourself the opportunity to look at a situation from a different/multiple angles then it is you who has lost out and imprisoned your mind.
 
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rs2sensen said:
I think that something must be done about tensions in the Middle East. This has been going on for much too long. It's time to give peace a chance. That doesn't mean pulling out immediately from Iraq, that will only cause more problems. And that doesn't mean that we should give the terrorists any credit, understanding, justification, or anything else. However, it is time to bury the proverbial hatchet, shake a few hands, kiss a few babies, and move on.

I wish that were possible... But remember, we don't even know what it is to hold a grudge in this country (USA). We are only 200 years old. There is literally thousands of years of hatred between Israel and the Arab Nations. Giving peace a chance has been tried over and over again. Israel WON the war after WWII against the Arab world and yet somehow they have been forced to give most of the land back in the name of "peace"... The Arab nations will NOT be happy until every last Jew is pushed into the Mediterranean Sea.
 
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macAttack said:
I was not assuming we all have the same life experiences, but that we all (hopefully) have never been, or will be, terrorists, and understand their reasons, or feel their hate.

You do not need to be a terrorist to understand their reasons. When I was younger I lived for a short time in Israel, where it became a daily occurence to be paralyzed from traveling while near the bus station because their was a bomb threat EVERY day. I was stuck on the side of the street each day, unable to go in any direction because the IDF would block each end. A couple of times my little sister was split-up from me and my father and she would have to wait on the other side of the street all by herself until we were allowed to move again. I'm grateful for that experience because it allows me know first hand, on a much smaller scale, what it is like for Palestinians who are "trapped" in Gaza and the West Bank, who are restricted from travelling anywhere, even within the occupied territories. I have friends that demonstrated in Israel side-by-side with Palestinians, who work closely together today in analyzing solutions to end the conflict. If you open your ears and listen, as well as your mind, you will hear and understand the pain and suffering they endure and why a very, very small minority of them have responded with radical violence. Occupation is a lost cause for both sides. It is the same EVERYWHERE and it has failed to work effectively once.

If you want a fantastic film to give you a sense of what is happening in Iraq then I would recommend you find a copy of the movie The Battle of Algiers. It is the story of the French occupation of Algeria, which lasted 130 years, and it illustrates the vicious cycle that went on towards the end of the occupation where both sides were bombing civillian targets (and this film was made in '67).

I'm sorry if I wrote too much, but I'm not about anything I've said. If you don't agree with me fine, it doesn't bother me. Hopefully I'll read something that gives a new twist or angle and will cause me to re-assess my beliefs. I only hope you all will allow the same possibility for yourself, not from me but from anyone.
 
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sarahsboy18 said:
I wish that were possible... But remember, we don't even know what it is to hold a grudge in this country (USA). We are only 200 years old. There is literally thousands of years of hatred between Israel and the Arab Nations. Giving peace a chance has been tried over and over again. Israel WON the war after WWII against the Arab world and yet somehow they have been forced to give most of the land back in the name of "peace"... The Arab nations will NOT be happy until every last Jew is pushed into the Mediterranean Sea.

Just to correct you, Israel has not been fighting the Arab world for thousands of years. It has only been in existence since 14 May 1948 2:00pm. Before then it was a British colony from 1914. Before then it was part of the Ottoman Empire, etc., etc. Also, Israel agreed to give land back to the Palestinians, Jordanians and Egyptians, they were not forced. They actually agreed to the League of Nations 1938 division of territory that would have given Palestinians ~49% of the land and the rest to the Jews. It was rejected, however, by the Palestinians. Numerous other land divisions over the years were rejected as well by Palestinians, with each one being less and less land offered. The Sinai was given back to Egypt because Israel has agreed to conventions of war that doesn't allow a country to annex another's through war. It was also considered humiliating to Egypt when they returned it. As far as the West Bank and Gaza, both were given to Jordan and Egypt respectively, but both were acquired again in later wars. Israel has never had a plan of getting rid of Palestinians, they have just been poor about returning land they promised to give. Most Palestinians don't want to push every last Jew into the Med. Sea, they just want to get rid of their occupiers who happen to be the Jews.
 
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Yea, your right sarahsboy18, he is ALOT more than that. But to save a list of wrongdoings and lies we wont talk about him. :p
 
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And I must correct you dstopsky... This history between these tribes goes back to Biblical times of Isaac, whom the Jews have traced their roots to... and Ishmael, whom the Arab nations have traced their roots. So if you don't believe this you'll have to argue with them... This is the ultimate family fued.

This land has changed hands many times (I'm sure I'll miss something in here... but you get the idea): Cainanites, Israel, Babalonia, Persia, Greeks, Romans, Turks (Ottoman), British.... Which then turned over to the U.N. to give the leftover Jews from the halocuast a place to live.

From the minute the Jews were given this homeland by the U.N. after WWII... the Arab nation has been trying to retake that land. Israel has won multiple wars that the Arabs have started and yet somehow it's all the Jews fault for not "returning" the land. I don't think so.
 
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sarahsboy18 said:
And I must correct you dstopsky... This history between these tribes goes back to Biblical times of Isaac, whom the Jews have traced their roots to... and Ishmael, whom the Arab nations have traced their roots. So if you don't believe this you'll have to argue with them... This is the ultimate family fued.

This land has changed hands many times (I'm sure I'll miss something in here... but you get the idea): Cainanites, Israel, Babalonia, Persia, Greeks, Romans, Turks (Ottoman), British.... Which then turned over to the U.N. to give the leftover Jews from the halocuast a place to live.

From the minute the Jews were given a homeland by the U.N. after WWII... the Arab nation has been trying to retake that land. Israel has won multiple wars that the Arabs have started and yet somehow it's all the Jews fault. I don't think so.

Maybe you misread, but I was not implying that Jews, Muslims and Christians have not had a long-standing feud. I was merely pointing out your inaccuracies regarding modern events. The U.N. never gave the land to the Jews, and it was also not done because of the Holocaust. The first mention of creating a Jewish state was in 1917 with the Balfourd Declaration, in which the British thought it best to give them a state of their own (there are many reasons why, but this was over 20 years before WWII began). The League of Nations agreed with the recommendation and passed a resolution that requested the British to create this state (remember, it was still British territory), as well as a Palestinian state. The U.N. agreed as well and passed a resolution, but it was the job of the British to create the two states. It was at 2pm on 14 May 1948 that the British officially withdrew their troops from the colony, and at the same time the Jews declared it to be the State of Israel, even though there was no international recognition and no creation of a Palestinian state.

Also, remember that the Arabs did not start every war. Yes, in 1948 when the Jews declared the State of Israel 7 Arab nations declared war on them. Yes, in 1967 Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon lined troops along Israel's borders, but that was due to the Russians telling them that Israel was planning an attack. The first strike came from the Jews, not the Jordanians or the Egyptians. But I'm sure you will argue that that was a pre-emptive strike, even though the war was really provoked by the Russians and only intensified when Nasser declared the Straits of Tiran closed. So I guess it was the Arabs fault that Israel invaded Lebanon in the early 1980's so they could bomb Beruit to force Yasser Arafat out of the region? Maybe it was the Arabs fault when Sharon allowed Christian Lebanese looking for revenge to enter into Palestinian camps within Jewish-occupied territories and slaughter all of the inhabitants? That couldn't be the reason why Sharon was asked to resign his position and everyone thought his political career to be dead forever then.

We can argue on and on about who started what, when, where, how, etc. It really is irrelevant. Both sides have done terrible things. It is a vicious cycle that has no end or beginning. How can you point the finger at one side and say "They did it, they did it all and Israel is completely innocent?"

It may suprise you but I am a staunch supporter of Israel, but that doesn't mean I support everything they do. It's the same as with the U.S. and the UK. I'm just happy I was given the right and priviledge to do a BA in History/Political Science and an MA in International Relations because what I learned from those years of schooling was how to properly research an issue and to remain as academic as possible. I do my best not to take "sides" and stay as objective as possible.

The only way to end a conflict is to begin by understanding why both sides are in conflict with each other.

P.S. I think this whole thread is done and dead. We've all said our piece, why keep arguing about details. I can't be bothered to go on any more so I'm officially done and surrender. You guys have fun if you want to continue.
 
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Edit: Didn't see your PS....

That's cool...

I think if my wife catches me on this thread (or has to hear about it) one more time... I'll be the one with war on my hands. LOL

This kind of stuff is always interesting to me and because of your posts... extremely educational. Cya 'round the forums.
 
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ah this reminds me of GZ
 
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Graphite said:
He sees no reason to see 'their' side. Seeing the otherside is what separates intellectuals from ignorants. Agreeing with it, is another story and no one is saying we agree with it.

While this thread has mostly run it's course, I just wanted to respond to this post. I truly don't appreciate the name calling, in which you were basically saying that I'm ignorant because I don't agree with you. But I guess you get a pass on proper behavior because you are a moderator.

Your calling me ignorant is nothing but an ad hominem attack, which, as an intellectual, you must know is not considered a proper way to behave in an argument-- frankly I never said I was unaware of the history of the middle east, or that I had no understanding of the grievances of some of the people of the region. What I said was that I had no desire to understand terrorists that murder innocent people. But your conflating historical events happening over such a wide region in a diverse group of countries, as being the justification of modern day islamic terrorism is a fairly simplistic viewpoint, and not at all what I'd consider an intellectual understanding of the situation.

Also, I did point out that had the terrorists targeted either the British military or government then (while I still don't agree with any of their agenda) their action might certainly have had some legitimacy. I do not understand, and I will never attempt to, any people that would place bombs on vehicles filled with people for the purpose of killing as innocents as possible. It is an action with no military value, either tactically or strategically, it is plainly a violation of internation rules of warfare (which were put in place to try and prevent civilan death and suffering), and it is such a morally reprehesible action that it deserves no understanding. Nor does it, for that matter, deserve to be defended by any appolgists for the terrorists.
 
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dan828 said:
Also, I did point out that had the terrorists targeted either the British military or government then (while I still don't agree with any of their agenda) their action might certainly have had some legitimacy. I do not understand, and I will never attempt to, any people that would place bombs on vehicles filled with people for the purpose of killing as innocents as possible. It is an action with no military value, either tactically or strategically, it is plainly a violation of internation rules of warfare (which were put in place to try and prevent civilan death and suffering), and it is such a morally reprehesible action that it deserves no understanding. Nor does it, for that matter, deserve to be defended by any appolgists for the terrorists.

True but you have to remember that they are not a military force, they are a band of terrorists who will do anything they think that might help their cause. They have been practically brainwashed into believing their cause and believing things such as dying in a suicide attack will lead them to heaven with great pride, this is not fact, this is just what decades of propaganda can do to people.

While you, I and everyone else on these forums know, killing innocent people is not going to help them at all, in fact, they are just digging their own grave even deeper with every attack. But consider that one of the reasons why it is so difficult for us to win this war against terrorists is because they do not fight with things such as the Geneva Convention in mind. This gives them the freedom to do what they want, including killing civilians (like a boxer who is allowed to hit below the belt against an opponent who cannot) while its an extremely dirty and disgusting way of fighting it does give them a slight advantage because they can happily walk up to our soldiers and laugh in our face because we cannot by law fight against them until they are considered as a serious threat (like the US ROE that a soldier can only fire upon a target if the target has fired first)

I can understand your point of view that you do not wish to understand why people would do such a thing, I believe that understanding is the first step to prevention and victory in this war. It wasn't until we understood exactly what the common cold was that we could cure it and save millions of people dying from it.
 
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dan, no one is calling anyone ignorant. I merely said, seeing the "other" side is what separates the intellectuals from the ignorant people. Not saying your ignorant, only saying that you should be interested in the other side. I guess however, you were being ignorant at the time you said, that you do not care about their side. reguardless if you care or not, you should know it. You were NOT ignorant for not agreeing with me, you were ignorant for not wanting and 'ignoring' the other side.

But you were right, this thread has run its course.

Closed thread before it turns into the GZ (PM if you don't know what it is)
 
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