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Cloudane

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Nobody is going to come round and raid you for *discussing* the concept of piracy, even in the extremely unlikely even they find out your details.

Also I don't think even the RIAA would try to sue you for obviously being genuinely misled. (Software copyright holders tend to go after distributers anyway, not users)

I'm sort of wondering how long it'll take before open source software is made illegal because it does exactly the same thing - it "deprives" companies like Microsoft of their potential income. As a very strong capitalist economy, I'm sure the US would do that if OSS became enough of a threat.
 
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There's a huge difference between stealing/theft/piracy and developing your own alternative. Your analogy isn't a very good one. They've created a product that is being stolen. There is a difference between that and competition.

It would be as if ABC just stole all of NBC's shows and put them on as their own instead of developing their own.
 
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I can't see the difference. The *only* differentiation I can see is that one is legal, and the other isn't. Free software *is* competition - just ask Bill Gates about Linux and he will tell you so :) Whether you steal Windows or install Linux, either way the person is depriving Microsoft out of $200 or however much it costs. Just one is legal, the other is not.

If you follow the law without question (say if they made it illegal to post on messageboards...) then great. It's all cut and dry no matter what the government say you should do because you always follow their orders. But morally, how do you tell the difference?

Not trying to justify piracy or owt - just genuinely trying to see the difference.
 
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My point is competition is healthy and not illegal. Piracy is illegal and deprives people of their rightly earned money. If they don't earn it because of an inferior product, that's all fair in business. However if they don't earn it because someone steals it, that's not right.
 
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Cloudane said:
Whether you steal Windows or install Linux, either way the person is depriving Microsoft out of $200 or however much it costs. Just one is legal, the other is not.
....just genuinely trying to see the difference.


Here is the difference...(albeit very simplified) MS is not out of any money if you go somewhere else. They still have all of the copies of Windows they made, and can still sell them. You are only "depriving" them of a possible sale, not the product itself...they can still sell it to someone else.
If you steal a copy of Windows, they now have one less copy to sell, hence they lose money.
If the Linux distro is free, then nobody is really losing any money, because none was asked for in the first place. MS is asking to be paid for Windows, so if they are not paid then they lose money.

Even simpler analogy....

You have a dozen apples.
You paid 10 cents each for those apples.
You are selling those apples for 25 cents each, to make a 15 cent profit on each.
If you don't sell any of them, then you are out a total of what you paid...$1.20.
Down the street is an orange tree.
I take an orange from the tree and pay nothing.
Nobody is selling them and nobody expects a profit from them.
This doesn't affect you at all, because while they are both fruit, they are not the same.
You still have your $1.20 worth of apples.
I take an apple from your table without paying for it.
You are not out a total of $1.35, because you now have one less apple to sell and won't get the 15 cent profit you expected and asked for...unless you raise the price on the remaining apples.

This is exactly what happens when people continue to pirate software that is sold for profit. Prices increase and increase.
 
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Cloudane

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Your argument is completely flawed, as you're talking about depriving a person of a material product.

If you steal a copy of Windows, they now have one less copy to sell, hence they lose money.

Yes, if you walk into Walmart and run off with the box. Anyone with a brain knows that that is wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we're talking about downloading a copy. That doesn't derpive anyone of any material item and is therefore IMO the same as using a free alternative. Except for legality and perhaps some morals.
 
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Cloudane said:
Your argument is completely flawed, as you're talking about depriving a person of a material product.



Yes, if you walk into Walmart and run off with the box. Anyone with a brain knows that that is wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we're talking about downloading a copy. That doesn't derpive anyone of any material item and is therefore IMO the same as using a free alternative. Except for legality and perhaps some morals.

How is downloading a pirated copy not depriving a developer of a material product? A stolen copy obtained through a download is still depriving a developer of a copy, as they no longer have the option to sell a copy to that person.
What is flawed here is your perception of the item in question, as you have missed the point of the analogies. Your rationale would imply that as long as you don't steal it form a retail establishment, it is OK. When you create a copy for download, you are in turn stealing from a company because the company can not gain a profit for something they designed, released and expected to be paid for. So a downloaded copy is different from a retail copy how? True, you may not be taking an actual disk that was pressed by MS......but is a downloaded copy somehow not a tangible item? You are still taking the product, sans payment. Just because it is downloaded does not make it not stealing. The more copies that are downloaded, the less that are actually sold, which is the same as taking the copy from the manufacturer, which in turn jacks up the price for the legal copies thus keeping in line with the aforementioned analogies.
It is still stealing ...it is no different than taking it from a store without paying for it. How you obtain it makes no difference...it is still an item that was not paid for, though it should have been.
 
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And here is another (and final) analogy.

I am a software developer.
I make my software available for download online.
I intend on getting payment for the software, yet I release it as a trial offer.
The app can be used for a limited time, in a basic functionality.
To unlock the software and use it to the full extent, I require a payment for a registration key to be sent to you.
I charge $5.00 for each registration.
Keep in mind, anyone can download it but in order for it to be complete, you must pay for registration.
This is not a 'tangible' item, yet everytime someone other than myself gives out a registration key or creates some hack to generate one, I lose $5.00 for each new person that gains full access to the software without paying me.

The bottom line is, I personally don't care if anyone chooses to pirate software or not. I don't do it. If you do, just don't try to justify it and say it is not theft or that it isn't affecting or hurting anyone by doing it or that it is the same as using a free/open source app.... as you are sadly mistaken if you truly believe that.
 
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Cloudane said:
I can't see the difference. The *only* differentiation I can see is that one is legal, and the other isn't. Free software *is* competition - just ask Bill Gates about Linux and he will tell you so :) Whether you steal Windows or install Linux, either way the person is depriving Microsoft out of $200 or however much it costs. Just one is legal, the other is not.

If you follow the law without question (say if they made it illegal to post on messageboards...) then great. It's all cut and dry no matter what the government say you should do because you always follow their orders. But morally, how do you tell the difference?

Not trying to justify piracy or owt - just genuinely trying to see the difference.
It's really simple: you're using someone else's work without their consent.

If you're a designer, is it right if a client uses a proof of your work without paying you?
If you're a student, is it right for someone else to turn in a copy your paper for a grade?
In a work environment, is it right if your boss takes credit for your idea?

In each of the above cases, nobody is physically injured, and no physical objects are taken. That doesn't make everything okay.
 
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Cloudane

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How is downloading a pirated copy not depriving a developer of a material product?

Okay, it seems that material according to the dictionary definition can mean an idea, so I'll have to admit an incorrect choice of wording. What I meant to say was *tangible*. Take this quote - "I take an apple from your table without paying for it." - that's the part which I was saying is flawed because stealing an apple of someone's table is removing a tangible object and depriving the owner of it. Therefore theft. I'm not saying that taking a copy of software isn't wrong, but it isn't depriving someone of stock. Put simply, it's not 'theft' - it's copyright infringement. It's still wrong, but don't try to make it into something that it isn't.

It's more like, someone comes along with a device that takes the structure of all of the atoms of the apple and can instantly create a clone. The original is still sat there and can still be sold. It'd still be 'wrong' to do so, and I'm sure laws would be put in place to prevent it, but it's still a completely inappropriate analogy.

I charge $5.00 for each registration.

Yes, well.. anyone who won't pay $5 for a decent app is truly pathetic. If people rip off your app... all I can say is wow...

But you're arguing with me for the wrong reason. I'm not trying to say that piracy isn't bad or justifying it. Just that developers are using the wrong analogies. Yes in some cases people pirate things even though they could afford them and would buy them if copies weren't available. But I see a lot of developers claiming that every single pirated copy is depriving them of a sale. That's wrong. There are some people who wouldn't buy it no matter what. I saw someone earlier in the thread say that if he couldn't copy Windows then he'd just use Linux... there's your example.
 
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Cloudane said:
I'm not saying that taking a copy of software isn't wrong, but it isn't depriving someone of stock. Put simply, it's not 'theft' - it's copyright infringement. It's still wrong, but don't try to make it into something that it isn't.

According to the US Government and the government of most other civilized countries, software piracy is theft. Perhaps you should take the definition issue up with them. ;) Theft does not have to be a tangible object my friend. Check the law books.

Either way, I'm amazed that you're fighting this so much. Piracy is wrong. Despite whatever minutia you feel the need to argue over it is irrelevant. The act of piracy is both illegal and morally bankrupt. Despite trying to justify it by playing word games it will always be illegal. There is no justification for denying someone their rightly earned ability to sell something to the public regardless of what you want to call it.

As for your quoting the guy who said he'd just use linux if he couldn't copy windows, then why doesn't he just use linux instead of doing something illegal? I'll tell you why, because he needs Windows for something. Some program. So feature. In the end if Windows could not be illegally obtained, it's almost a certainty he would buy a copy.
 
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Cloudane

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Fair enough. We'll leave it at that, otherwise we'll just be going round in circles :)

I for one stick to using as much freeware or OSS as possible. Because $200 for an OS, $100 for the office package, then for every little tweak or utility you're looking at an average of about $30 a pop. When you need lots of little utilities and apps just to get started, it can get so expensive that nobody except the richest can afford all of it. This drives people to either pirate or use free stuff. I'm one for using the freebies as some of them (NeoOffice/J) can be of superb quality and there really isn't any need to steal. OS X is good this way also, as there is quite a lot of usable software bundled with it.

As a matter of interest I bought Tiger despite the fact that there are no measures put in place to even try and stop people downloading and using the torrent. No serial number, no activation, nothing. It's very difficult to have the discipline to do that when you know that other people are getting it for free and Apple are doing nothing about it - but they deserve support. If you think I'm trying to justify piracy, think again - I'm just trying to be open minded rather than extreme either way.
 
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I'm hopping in here late... forgive me...

I tend to agree with the "Pirating is stealing, period" side of the arguement... With only one, sorta, exception.

I started in the media/graphic design business as a teenager... totally self taught... and homeschooled... which means I never really had the option educational discounts... and even if I could get them my parents couldn't have afforded the programs as I am the oldest of 9 kids. So naturally the only way for me to learn was to find copies of software online. Getting ahold of $5,000 to buy a good machine, macromedia, final cut, and the adobe suite is just not really an option at 15.... especially in the dustbowl of Oklahoma.

That being said I am now in my very young 20s and as of this year alone I have spent over $9,000 dollars with Apple... and thousands of dollars to other various software companies like Adobe buying their products to use for my business. But if I had not had access to those materials as a teenager then nobody would have gotten a dime out of me... Cause I'd be flippin' burgers today.

Now, I have the rest of my life to pay back Adobe, Apple, Macromedia... 100 times what I "borrowed" from them as a kid. So there are some definite PR advantages to accessing these programs online. As long as it doesn't become a habit.

Edit: Someone just gave me a bad rep point on this... Come on guys... No need for that... I am not running illegal software now. Just sharing my "testimony."
 
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Cloudane

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Unfortunately there are a lot of hard-line people who believe that even if you pay the developer back later several times over, you should still be hung drawn and quartered for what you did in the first place, even if it was for the long term good of the developer. You should be flipping burgers and that's that ;)
 
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rman said:
Depending on the school you attend, you may get a better discount. In my case I was able to get a full M$ office license for $20. The license was only valid while I was in school.

We have the same thing at the University at which I teach. Students can buy the disk that allows them to install it on their computer for $20 and I think when they leave school they have an option to buy the license for $40.
 

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