The situation in Israel

eliehass said:

Just a technical point here, the British were not occupiers. They were actually far far away and we Americans had the land all for ourselves (and the Native Americans). Our problem with the british is that they were forcing enormous taxes on us to pay for the war they had just fought. We believed that these taxes were unreasonable, especially since we had no say in the policy of British government. We therefore chose to be independent. They didn't like that idea very much and sent soldiers to keep us under control. We fought and won our independence.

I just wanted to clarify that.

Click to expand...

We are going off topic here with the War of Independence, but. Bear in mind that the colonists of 13 colonies considered themselves to be British, and their first demands were for representation in the Westminster Parliament in Britain. In fact the British repealed many of the taxes but kept the tea tax to show the rule of the crown, even in Britain there was fierce debate between those who wanted to show the colonists who was boss, and those who saw they had a proper case.

Unfortunately the show them whose boss faction won over and effectively pushed the colonists into declaring independence. It was looking pretty much like a stalemate and a very long protracted war until the Americans decisive blow at Yorktown finally defeated the British. But at least it taught the British that you cant just push colonists around and expect them not to fight back.

But that was over 2 hundred years ago, at least we are strong allies now, bearing in mind that many other countries harbour grudges that go back even longer (the Balkans spring to mind)

louishen said:

We are going off topic here with the War of Independence, but. Bear in mind that the colonists of 13 colonies considered themselves to be British, and their first demands were for representation in the Westminster Parliament in Britain. In fact the British repealed many of the taxes but kept the tea tax to show the rule of the crown, even in Britain there was fierce debate between those who wanted to show the colonists who was boss, and those who saw they had a proper case.

Unfortunately the show them whose boss faction won over and effectively pushed the colonists into declaring independence. It was looking pretty much like a stalemate and a very long protracted war until the Americans decisive blow at Yorktown finally defeated the British. But at least it taught the British that you cant just push colonists around and expect them not to fight back.

But that was over 2 hundred years ago, at least we are strong allies now, bearing in mind that many other countries harbour grudges that go back even longer (the Balkans spring to mind)

Click to expand...

Yes, I was just trying to point out that the comparison of Israel/Palestine to America/Britain is not very strong because the situations were not really similar at all.

Dysfunction said:

the problem simply perpetuates itself whenever random killing is considered 'social justice'.

Click to expand...

I really don't know what you mean by this.
I'm not talking about suicide bombings at all.
These groups are more than that. I was just mentioning the social services they provide for their respective peoples. Hezbollah has a position in the Lebanese government, they build schools and hospitals, provide healthcare, and give charity to poor families. This is all besides the military campaign which is another story.
Hamas does the same.
All I was trying to say is that these groups unfortunately are the ones filling a void where the corrupt Western supported leaders are using all the donated money for themselves.
Did people miss my point?

eliehass said:

Just a technical point here, the British were not occupiers. They were actually far far away and we Americans had the land all for ourselves (and the Native Americans). Our problem with the british is that they were forcing enormous taxes on us to pay for the war they had just fought. We believed that these taxes were unreasonable, especially since we had no say in the policy of British government. We therefore chose to be independent. They didn't like that idea very much and sent soldiers to keep us under control. We fought and won our independence.

I just wanted to clarify that.

Click to expand...

I know american history and obviously the details are drastically different. The British were the controlling the 13 colonies, Israel (illegaly) has the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.
But both of these groups were fighting for independence.
But hey I don't make the best analogies, that's fine. Maybe you'll still get my point, maybe not.

maconvert said:

I know american history and obviously the details are drastically different. The British were the controlling the 13 colonies, Israel (illegaly) has the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.
But both of these groups were fighting for independence.
But hey I don't make the best analogies, that's fine. Maybe you'll still get my point, maybe not.

Click to expand...

Technically, the British were controlling the 13 colonies and most (not all) of the colonies inhabitants were British subjects/citizens. This is a bit different, although some Palestinians ARE Israeli citizens. I recommend you go back and re-read Tareks outstanding post.

maconvert said:

I really don't know what you mean by this.
I'm not talking about suicide bombings at all.
These groups are more than that. I was just mentioning the social services they provide for their respective peoples. Hezbollah has a position in the Lebanese government, they build schools and hospitals, provide healthcare, and give charity to poor families. This is all besides the military campaign which is another story.
Hamas does the same.
All I was trying to say is that these groups unfortunately are the ones filling a void where the corrupt Western supported leaders are using all the donated money for themselves.
Did people miss my point?

Click to expand...

no, you validated organizations that use murder and terror. Sorry, I'm as black and white on this as it gets. It simply continues the problem, period.

Dysfunction said:

no, you validated organizations that use murder and terror. Sorry, I'm as black and white on this as it gets. It simply continues the problem, period.

Click to expand...

Well, I could and do say the same about organizations like the IDF.
They use murder and terror against innocent civilians, ALL the time.

I say tomato, you say tomAHto.

And besides, my comments were not an attempt to validate them at all. I didn't validate them. I'm just trying to point out that things are more nuanced than people choosing extremism instead of insulting their own country yada yada yada...

eliehass said:

I wouldn't call what Hamas and Hezbollah do social justice. They support suicide bombers. Regardless of what your opinion is over the Israeli/Palestinian situation, suicide bombing should never be an option. What civilized country got their independence by tactics like that? Calling for the total eradication of the State of Israel does not sound like social justice. And lastly, firing rockets at random into civilian areas is not civil justice. If they would stop firing rockets and stop supporting terrorists, and actually have a real discussion with Israel they might get what they want. Until then you can't say they are anything other than terrorists. You can't expect a country to have rockets fired upon in continually and do nothing, that's simply unreasonable.

Click to expand...

Again, I mentioned building schools hospitals etc, not military activities and I mentioned them in the context of corrupt countries ahem supported by us.

Ok, fine Israel had rockets fired upon them but they respond by killing so many innocents??
I think this article sums it up pretty nicely.

Mark Steel: So what have the Palestinians got to complain about? - Mark Steel, Commentators - The Independent

baggss said:

Technically, the British were controlling the 13 colonies and most (not all) of the colonies inhabitants were British subjects/citizens. This is a bit different, although some Palestinians ARE Israeli citizens. I recommend you go back and re-read Tareks outstanding post.

Click to expand...

I did go back and read Tarek's post. I'm not trying to be annoying here, but I didn't learn anything new the 1st or 2nd time. I sympathize that the Egyptians might not want to open ma3bar rafa7. I'm not Egyptian, but I don't agree with Hosni Mubarak's reasoning. And I know not all the Palestinians are innocent. If anyone was trying to prove the complete innocence of any one people we would be here forever.

I notice you have not answered my question from the last page.

baggss said:

I notice you have not answered my question from the last page.

Click to expand...

Ok, your post confused me for a bit.
You didn't ask a specific question in that post. I also feel weird putting a biography on here. Yes you're right of course my background etc. lends to my opinions. But I hope I don't seem like I'm unreasonable or unwilling to budge. That's kind of upsetting. If you want to know something specifically, I'll answer, and you said not to take your post as an attack so I'm not but I don't know what to say to it.

maconvert said:

Ok, your post confused me for a bit.
You didn't ask a specific question in that post. I also feel weird putting a biography on here. Yes you're right of course my background etc. lends to my opinions. But I hope I don't seem like I'm unreasonable or unwilling to budge. That's kind of upsetting. If you want to know something specifically, I'll answer, and you said not to take your post as an attack so I'm not but I don't know what to say to it.

Click to expand...

I apologize if I confused you. Everyone else in this discussion seems to be willing to view both sides of the argument. For example, I agree that Hamas and Hezbollah are providing good/helpful basic governmental services for the people under their care, but that does not exonerate the military action they unilaterally undertake and their provocative and violent call to action against Israel. On the flip side, I can se why some might consider the IDF to be engaging in the same kinds of activities. The fact remains that one side is a recognized legitimate country/government by the international community and the other(s) is (are) a recognized and legitimate terrorist organization by the international community.

You have a strong anti-Israeli (or Pro- Palestinian) view which is fine. My curiosity is that view point. From the tone of your posts one could make the intuitive leap that you are of Arab ethnicity (or of Middle Eastern decent) and perhaps even Palestinian (both are pure conjecture on my part and may be WAY off base). Knowing these sorts of details about you might actually make the debate more interesting and help explain your opinions in a more open manner. I'm not trying to pry, I'm simply trying to understand the source your POV. I pointed to Tareks post simply because we know he is Egyptian, he lives in the Geographical area in question, his country is directly involved in the situation and, frankly, his response was not what I would have expected. I think revealing more about yourself would help many here (perhaps myself most of all) understand your feelings and your POV better. They may disagree, but that is ok. If there is one thing I have learned about M-F, it's a friendly place.

I also understand if you are are hesitant to share information or details, it is all up to you and what you feel comfortable with. No one will think any less of you if you choose not to share.

It's war folks... Civilians on both sides of the conflict always die in any war. This is the way it has always been and probably always will be. There is no such thing as a "civil" war. Complaining about casualties never solves anything and is usually for naught. It's war, ugly and unfortunately part of the human condition. Both sides see the other as the "bad guys" and neither one is ever completely right or wrong about that. Solve the problems that started the war to end the war. Or, kill all of your enemy or their will to fight. "All is fair in love and war."

Got this one today... struck a chord with me.

i cannot post more than this because it would show my true views and would no doubt offend every lightweight sissy that thinks everything is fine and dandy that happens to be on this board.


said people would call me a racist out of sheer ignorance/stupidity.

I enjoy all the political cartoons that portray the situation like a bunch of small people constantly poking a lion and then getting ticked off when the lion retaliates.