Alt-F4 and Command-Q

kaydell · Jul 20, 2008

Mac users all know that command-Q will quit an application.

It seems to me that people considering the switch from Windows to Mac OS X can be held back by little things like trying what they think should work to quit an applicatiion, alt-F4, and finding that it doesn't work.

What I propose is that we suggest to Apple to make the key-combination alt-F4 be synonymous with command-Q.

We did this once before, when the Mac keyboard didn't have an escape key etc. Now, good Mac OS X programs will let Mac users cancel with a command-period, and will respond in the way that a Windows user would expect when they press the "escape" key on the keyboard.

We need people to be able to switch over easily or they won't switch.;D

kaydell · Jul 20, 2008

Ditto for control-alt-delete. Almost all Windows users learn this key combination. When they try it on the Mac to quit a runaway application, nothing happens.

The Mac keyboards now have a control key.

We should suggest to Apple that they define the keyboard combination: control-alt-delete to mean the same thing as command-option-escape.

We need to make switching to the Mac as easy as possible to gain market-share.

Kash · Jul 20, 2008

Or new users could, you know, learn the Mac way, which tends to be easier. And since the Mac way is generally easier, then I would propose Microsoft change its key combinations to the ones used in OS X. That way Windows users will feel right at home when switching, and those who decide to remain Windows users will have more logical and easier keyboard combinations.

See how ludicrous that sounded?

Oh, and btw, Apple isn't having much trouble getting marketshare, with it having just increased sales by 38%. Changing some key combinations to accommodate people who can't be bothered to learn new things isn't going to increase sales, and if it is, do you really want these kind of people to become Mac users? Can't you just imagine what else they'll be screaming for Apple to change to make OS X more like Windows under the guise of making the transition easier? So a simple key combination change ends up with Apple releasing OS 11 to look and work exactly like Windows...

kaydell · Jul 20, 2008

I disagree that the Mac way is always easier. For example, remember command-period. What was that supposed to mean.

"Escape" makes more sense.

I don't believe that option-command-Escape is any more intuitive than control-alt-delete. They are both arbitrary. These are just a couple of things. I've seen my daughters raised on the Mac and when married, their husbands bought the computers and they were PCs running Windows.

Once, my daughter came to my house to do some work on the Mac, remember she grew up with the Mac one-button mouse. She was a little disoriented and asked, "Where's the button". I explained that being the new one button mouse, the whole mouse is the button.

So Apple has the "Mighty-Mouse", it's kinda weird to me. Apple is following more standards, but the Mighty-Mouse is your only choice of a mouse when you buy a Mac at

http://store.apple.com/

I'm an experienced Mac and Windows user and the Mighty Mouse made me feel like I couldn't control my computer. I got a standard-feeling Dell two button mouse with a standard-sized scroll wheel and feel right at home switching between Mac and Windows now.

I think that the Might-Mouse suffers from feeling non-standard to both experienced Mac users and to switchers from PC.

It just feels weird. I guess you could get used to this, this third thing, but every little thing that trips a user up keeps them from switching to the Mac.

skaheadpunk · Jul 20, 2008

kaydell said:
I disagree that the Mac way is always easier. For example, remember command-period. What was that supposed to mean.

"Escape" makes more sense.

I don't believe that option-command-Escape is any more intuitive than control-alt-delete. They are both arbitrary. These are just a couple of things. I've seen my daughters raised on the Mac and when married, their husbands bought the computers and they were PCs running Windows.

Once, my daughter came to my house to do some work on the Mac, remember she grew up with the Mac one-button mouse. She was a little disoriented and asked, "Where's the button". I explained that being the new one button mouse, the whole mouse is the button.

So Apple has the "Mighty-Mouse", it's kinda weird to me. Apple is following more standards, but the Mighty-Mouse is your only choice of a mouse when you buy a Mac at

http://store.apple.com/

I'm an experienced Mac and Windows user and the Mighty Mouse made me feel like I couldn't control my computer. I got a standard-feeling Dell two button mouse with a standard-sized scroll wheel and feel right at home switching between Mac and Windows now.

I think that the Might-Mouse suffers from feeling non-standard to both experienced Mac users and to switchers from PC.

It just feels weird. I guess you could get used to this, this third thing, but every little thing that trips a user up keeps them from switching to the Mac.

Yeah, but making Macs more like Windows kinda defeats the point - and people who switch should be able to understand that things are going to be different.

And I think Cmd+Q is far more obvious than Alt+F4 for quitting something, btw.

kaydell · Jul 20, 2008

>> And I think Cmd+Q is far more obvious than Alt+F4 for quitting something, btw.

We could have both.

Dysfunction · Jul 20, 2008

so write a keyboard macro

cept there's no alt. Why add one when not needed?

puaerotch · Jul 20, 2008

Doesn't Alt+W close tabs in IE and Firefox for the PC? That's an awful lot like Command+W in OSX so why wouldn't Alt+Q be a better option for windows? I agree with skaheadpunk in that Command+Q is more obvious than Alt+F4

cwa107 · Jul 20, 2008

Why does the Mac/OS X have to be a mirror of Windows and vice versa?

ki99 · Jul 20, 2008

Dysfunction said:
cept there's no alt. Why add one when not needed?

option functions also as an alt key, and is so labeled on some mac keyboards.

cwa107 said:
Why does the Mac/OS X have to be a mirror of Windows and vice versa?

it doesn't. but standardized keyboard shortcuts could prove to be very efficient, not only in people switching from one to the other, but for people who use both. it's just fun to argue which one is better.

so IMO, not only does cmd+Q make more sense, but it is far easier to hit, i hate quitting windows apps with alt+f4 because it's such an awkward combination, and i usually have to use 2 hands. but i really do think that macs should incorporate ctrl+alt+delete. it has become almost a general knowledge to the average computer users that when your computer freezes, hit ctrl+alt+delete.

Dysfunction · Jul 20, 2008

Anticipating the next complaint. Current mac 'boards.. it's is indeed so labeled.

ki99 · Jul 20, 2008

wasn't complaining, just letting all the on the verge switchers know there was an alt key, it's not AS unfamiliar as they once thought!

Kash · Jul 20, 2008

kaydell said:
So Apple has the "Mighty-Mouse", it's kinda weird to me. Apple is following more standards, but the Mighty-Mouse is your only choice of a mouse when you buy a Mac at

http://store.apple.com/

I'm an experienced Mac and Windows user and the Mighty Mouse made me feel like I couldn't control my computer. I got a standard-feeling Dell two button mouse with a standard-sized scroll wheel and feel right at home switching between Mac and Windows now.

I think that the Might-Mouse suffers from feeling non-standard to both experienced Mac users and to switchers from PC.

For starters, I absolutely despise the Mighty Mouse, though I admit it's not wholly unusable. You can have both left and right buttons on a Mighty Mouse, though it can be a bit finicky when using it. However, complaining that Apple only sells an Apple product on its website is just asinine. You yourself just proved that you can buy another mouse and plug it in. It's called consumer choice. You don't like the Apple brand, then pick something else. It has nothing to do with the switch being easier or more difficult,but rather laziness if one can't be bothered to do a bit of research before buying something.

puaerotch said:
Doesn't Alt+W close tabs in IE and Firefox for the PC? That's an awful lot like Command+W in OSX so why wouldn't Alt+Q be a better option for windows? I agree with skaheadpunk in that Command+Q is more obvious than Alt+F4

It's Control+W on Windows

kaydell · Jul 20, 2008

However, complaining that Apple only sells an Apple product on its website is just asinine. You yourself just proved that you can buy another mouse and plug it in. It's called consumer choice.

It's just a waste of money and resources to have to buy a mighty mouse and then buy another mouse. It can be done, but this is a usability issue. The Mac should be useable out of the box.

cwa107 · Jul 20, 2008

kaydell said:
It's just a waste of money and resources to have to buy a mighty mouse and then buy another mouse. It can be done, but this is a usability issue. The Mac should be useable out of the box.

And it is. Just because you don't like the peripherals it comes with, doesn't make it "unusable".

technologist · Jul 20, 2008

Trying to be like Windows is a game that can only be lost. There will always be some other characteristic of Windows that just doesn't quit line up. Apple and its developers would have to spend all their time studying the latest Windows release and duplicating it. It would be a nightmare, and they'd never be able to make them identical.

If you bought a Saab, would you write angry letters because the ignition switch is on the center console, instead of the steering column? If you moved to England, would you be frustrated at how they drove on the other side of the street? Try moving there and then telling them how to run their country. See how well that goes.

Believe it or not, Apple's purpose in designing its computers is not to cater to the every whim of homesick Windows users. Nobody is forcing them to switch, and nobody is preventing them from switching back.

skaheadpunk · Jul 20, 2008

Very true. And I have to say that I think Apple are winning on the 'out of the box' thing anyway, there's no messing about!

Also, why should OS X accommodate Windows' shortcuts if they don't accommodate ours?

I couldn't switch back to Windows if I wanted to, Visa and most of XP is just too weird and complicated for me, they should make it more like the Mac interface, with Mac shortcuts, features, applications, keyboards, mice, trackpads, multi-touch...

Oh no wait, that would be a Mac.

If you want something that's just like Windows buy a Dell, not a Mac.