No OS CD's On eBay Mac Auctions

I have always been curious about this issue. Often when I'm browsing macs that are available on eBay, a large number of them are listed with something along the lines of "sorry, no CD's included" or "original restore DVD's/CD's not included." Yet, they are shipping the computers with the OS installed. Is this not a violation of the software license agreement? For example, I recently was browsing for a good deal on a MBP. I found one that appears to be in excellent condition, great specs, but it says "Leopard and Ilife 08 (no cd's)." First of all, that stinks because I will never be able to restore/reinstall anything without having to go buy another copy. But second, as far as I can tell, it's illegal. According to the OS X single-user license agreement,

"You may . . . make a one-time permanent transfer of all of your license rights to the Apple Software (in its original form as provided by Apple) to another party, provided that: (a) the transfer must include all of the Apple Software, including all its component parts, original media, printed materials and this License; (b) you do not retain any copies of the Apple Software, full or partial, including copies stored on a computer or other storage device; and (c) the party receiving the Apple Software reads and agrees to accept the terms and conditions of this License . . ." (section 3 of SULA)

Even if they had the family pack, that is only licensed for five installs within ONE household, right? Any thoughts on this. I googled with no avail . . . -Jon

Indeed, it is illegal. Five installs per household on the family pack.

I don't know if iLife has a family pack, but regardless, not including CDs, especially with a fairly new computer, is peculiar. Leads me to believe it may be stolen goods.

Just my senses, but that's what I think every time I see "No CDs" on a new machine.

I understand if it's like, a 7 year old iBook, but a MacBook Pro, no older than two years? Nuh uh.

Derek McNelly said:

Indeed, it is illegal. Five installs per household on the family pack.

I don't know if iLife has a family pack, but regardless, not including CDs, especially with a fairly new computer, is peculiar. Leads me to believe it may be stolen goods.

Just my senses, but that's what I think every time I see "No CDs" on a new machine.

I understand if it's like, a 7 year old iBook, but a MacBook Pro, no older than two years? Nuh uh.

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Yes, I'm sure many may be stolen computers. In the example I mentioned, however, taking into account their 60+ 100% feedback, it appeared that the seller was intending either to keep the CDs for his own personal use or sell them separately. I actually sent him/her a couple of messages--got really vague responses like "People install with multiple licenses from one dvd." Still, whether it's outright theft or copyright violation, it's illegal. On top of that, it short-changes the buyer.

Personally, I would just as soon buy a new copy anyway. That way, all is new and legally mine.

"People install with multiple licenses from one dvd."

God bless Apple for being so trusting.

walmartconnect said:

"People install with multiple licenses from one dvd."

God bless Apple for being so trusting.

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Yeah. Too bad people abuse that trust. But anything beats Microsoft's activation system.

Yes, it breaks the Apple's EULA. Breaking the EULA isn't against the law but Apple could go after someone for piracy or something I would suspect.
It is also against eBay's rules to sell computers with an OS or software installed while excluding the discs. Because there are so many violators it is hard for eBay people to catch them all.

Yeah, it's really too bad that so many people are like this. Apple should probably go after some of these people in civil court or ask ebay to be more strict about it. That may help people be more honest, the only problem is its so hard to prove a lot of this stuff.

I think you need to look at which version of OS X came on the system compared with what is comes with. For example, my original MacBook Pro came with 10.4, if I saw one being sold with 10.4 without discs I wouldn't find that to be shady at all since I know when it was originally purchased it had to come with that version of OS X. It isn't quite as shady as someone selling a PC without the discs because that system could have come with no OS. I don't see why a person would want to keep the operating system discs for a system that they are selling since the discs will only work on that hardware model, so I am guessing they just lost them.

mynameis said:

I think you need to look at which version of OS X came on the system compared with what is comes with. For example, my original MacBook Pro came with 10.4, if I saw one being sold with 10.4 without discs I wouldn't find that to be shady at all since I know when it was originally purchased it had to come with that version of OS X.

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Not sure I follow. If they retain possession of the 10.4 discs, they cannot sell a laptop with that 10.4 loaded. If they had lost the discs, they wouldn't have been able to reinstall the OS before selling.

From my messaging back/forth, it appears that this person's MBP came with 10.4, they lost those discs, and had upgraded to 10.5 in the meantime anyway. But since they are selling the computer with 10.5 loaded, they are not allowed to keep that 10.5 DVD.

If you lose your OS restore DVD's, are people seriously suggesting you should format your hard drive and leave the new customer to sort themselves out?

Way to make a sale.

According to the EULA as previously mentioned, the media needs to be included with the install of the OS.
The buyer or seller can go to the Apple store and buy a new copy of the OS or call Apple and ask for a new copy of the restore discs for $40. It isn't that difficult, is it???

Alexis said:

If you lose your OS restore DVD's, are people seriously suggesting you should format your hard drive and leave the new customer to sort themselves out?

Way to make a sale.

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No, you should include the DVD for the OS that you have reinstalled prior to shipping ;D That is my main point--there are way too many people on eBay that obviously have the DVDs because they say they have "freshly installed Leopard," for example, and then say "sorry, restore DVDs not included." That's the way not to make a sale, at least in my book. If the person is not honest enough to follow the EULA, then I don't want to do business with him/her. I realize, as bryphotoguy pointed out above, that the buyer has fairly easy solutions to missing the OS media. But I am just really serious about professionalism and customer service on eBay, and it just irks me that there are so many people just thinking of themselves. I just see this OS issue so often, I wanted to start this thread to see if I was missing something

What some I have seen are doing is, say the machine came with Tiger. They are installing Leopard from their DVD and iLife 08 but of course keeping their Leopard and iLife 08 DVD's. If the machine at least comes with the original Tiger install DVD's, why not put the machine back to factory and include in the same the Tiger DVD's that came with the Mac in the first place?

They are leaving Leopard and iLife 08 on the system to make it look more attractive, but that is against the law and Apples EULA.

GraceGuitars said:

Not sure I follow. If they retain possession of the 10.4 discs, they cannot sell a laptop with that 10.4 loaded. If they had lost the discs, they wouldn't have been able to reinstall the OS before selling.

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Basically, I thought that the version of OS X that came with the systems had what would be considered an OEM license in the PC world, meaning that system is licensed to run the software, regardless of what disc was used to install it or who currently has the disc(if one even exists).

Selling a system with 10.5 that originally came with 10.4 is definitely illegal.

For Apple, is there not a different EULA for the included software versus the retail purchased software?

mynameis said:

For Apple, is there not a different EULA for the included software versus the retail purchased software?

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Nope, same EULA. I just checked. The seller would be required to buy either the restore discs from Apple or buy a retail copy.

mynameis said:

Basically, I thought that the version of OS X that came with the systems had what would be considered an OEM license in the PC world, meaning that system is licensed to run the software, regardless of what disc was used to install it or who currently has the disc(if one even exists).

Selling a system with 10.5 that originally came with 10.4 is definitely illegal.

For Apple, is there not a different EULA for the included software versus the retail purchased software?

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Thanks for clarifying, I see where you're coming from now. They may have a separate EULA for the bundled discs. But like you or someone else said earlier, if those discs indeed can run only on that specific machine, then keeping the discs while selling the computer would be pointless. In many cases I see, including the one I mentioned on eBay, they are keeping software that can be installed on other machines and also installing it on the machine they're selling. That's the only concern I have. I think some people are just so hardened and apathetic towards copyright ownership these days, that they don't think twice about violating license agreements left and right. I actually saw someone selling a PC on eBay, advertising it to include burned copies of some expensive apps along with a list of activation codes, etc. he had received from a friend !!! His tone was such that this was a completely normal, legitimate thing to do. Not too bright...

GraceGuitars said:

"You may . . . make a one-time permanent transfer of all of your license rights to the Apple Software (in its original form as provided by Apple) to another party, provided that: (a) the transfer must include all of the Apple Software, including all its component parts, original media, printed materials and this License; (b) you do not retain any copies of the Apple Software, full or partial, including copies stored on a computer or other storage device; and (c) the party receiving the Apple Software reads and agrees to accept the terms and conditions of this License . . ." (section 3 of SULA)

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Whoa, what's this? So If I sell my computer to some one and give them all my crap and they sell it back to me, I'm not allowed to transfer my license rights ever again? That's limiting.

Village Idiot said:

Whoa, what's this? So If I sell my computer to some one and give them all my crap and they sell it back to me, I'm not allowed to transfer my license rights ever again? That's limiting.

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I doubt that you would ever encounter that situation--someone selling you your computer back--but I don't think that's what the EULA means anyway. I think they just mean that you can't lease the OS or anything like that--it's a one-time, point-of-sale type of deal. In other words, you are not using the software to make a profit or to avoid purchasing licensed copies.