Welcome back, Mr. Bush!

Is it not lost on you that the UN is run by dictators for the most part? Funny then that the UN is supposed to be the body that helps spread freedom and equality....

And other than a paranoid conspiracy theorist view it was about the oil, the US had nothing to gain by going into Iraq other than freeing a tortured people and hopefully making the MidEast a little more stable after all is said and done.

My last post was done with sarcasm, if you missed it.

To be honest with you, I've always had reservations about the UN and it's usefulness, particularly in the post Cold War world. The fact that the UN has done nothing to punish the French (or Russians for that matter) for selling their vote to Sadam and breaking all kinds of UN sanctions and rules in regards to Iraq just gives me more reason to believe the body has become outdated and useless. Even worse, however, is the fact that certain quarters of the UN knew what the French were doing, knew that Sadam was abusing the oil for food program and even reported it and STILL nothing was done. That place needs to be cleaned out with a Neutron Bomb and then started again.

schweb said:

Ah yes, those civilized Europeans...after causing two World Wars as well as having a long history of warfare and attrocity, I don't really think they have the credibility to lecture anyone about what they do at this point

But then really, if you go by those guidelines, I guess no one does :closed:

Perhaps in the grand scheme of world leaders out there today, if all things are looked at equally GWB isn't so bad.

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Yea sure, America's has been peaceful throughout. It never initiated wars.

Not in Vietnam, not in Iraq, never

I can't agree more. The fact that Sadam Hussein's Iraq was chairing the Human Rights Commission at the UN is enough to show how worthless the UN really is in addition to everything else you pointed out.

There really does have to be a better way.

Strider said:

Yea sure, America's has been peaceful throughout. It never initiated wars.

Not in Vietnam, not in Iraq, never

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That's why I said no one has the right to talk. My post was mainly pointing out how hypocritical most nations are when dealing with us. They certainly don't have room to lecture us.

schweb said:

Is it not lost on you that the UN is run by dictators for the most part? Funny then that the UN is supposed to be the body that helps spread freedom and equality....

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The UN is controlled by America and its allies. If you think it is so bureucratic, why didn't America get approval from the UN before going to war.

schweb said:

And other than a paranoid conspiracy theorist view it was about the oil, the US had nothing to gain by going into Iraq other than freeing a tortured people and hopefully making the MidEast a little more stable after all is said and done.

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OMG get ur facts straight bro...

Its ALL ABOUT the OIL! Majority of the reconstruction work is done by American companies, the cost of the war is added to Iraq's balance sheet as a debt to america.

Also, goto Iraq today - its been ages since the war ended - and go and ask people there how it is living in Iraq today compared to 2 years ago. People are dying everyday in explosions and shootings. There is no stability.


And thats how Bush has made Iraq safer...

There's no point in arguing with you on this. Michael Moore got to you first

schweb said:

There's no point in arguing with you on this. Michael Moore got to you first

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yup, he did :headphone

Strider said:

Yea sure, America's has been peaceful throughout. It never initiated wars.

Not in Vietnam, not in Iraq, never

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Actually, we didn't START the war in Vietnam, we just picked it up when the French got their asses handed to them an Dien-Bien-Phu in 56 and at the request of the South Vietnamese regime.
And technically, the current war in Iraq is still a continuation of the 1991 war that Sadam started by invading Kuwait. The Bush administration cited the UN resolutions that Sadam had violated and the UN was not willing (we now know WHY) to do anything about it. The fact that the UN was on the take from Sadam and not even willing to back up it's own resolutions makes we wonder if the UN is even worth the effort anymore. Now I will agree that it was the US that "re-launched" the war, so in a way, we did start it again.
The UNs recent "evacuation" (can you say "Run away, run away") from their mission in Central Africa with the French just adds more fuel to the speculation that the UN is a worthless organization.

Strider said:

The UN is controlled by America and its allies. If you think it is so bureucratic, why didn't America get approval from the UN before going to war.

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Yes, that explains why the French were on the take and Sadam was skimming BILLIONS off the top of the oil for food program. That explains why there were only a few American companies involved in that deal and literally HUNDREDS of French companies. That explains why the UN was so willing to go along with us in Iraq. If we controlled the UN, as you seem to think, then the whole Iraq war would have been rubber stamp by the UN and not a huge issue.

I personally feel that because Bush got re-elected, the world will end :bomb:


Personally, I strongly disagree with Bush's stance on homosexuality (while Kerry was also opposed to gay marriage, at least he didn't want the Defensive Marriages Act), abortion, gun control, stem cell research, the environment, unions, Iraq, and more.


You know, I have this site that lists 1546 reasons why it was a bad choice to elect Bush

Admittedly, although I am a Republican and did vote for Bush, I do disagree with him on Abortion, Gun Control and Stem Cell Research....

i am just so glad not to be american really, new zealand is a much nicer place.and its laughable that the country that continually preaches democracy has one of the most flawed election systems around.

on the brighter side- 4 more years and no more bush!

schweb said:

Ah yes, those civilized Europeans...after causing two World Wars as well as having a long history of warfare and attrocity, I don't really think they have the credibility to lecture anyone about what they do at this point

But then really, if you go by those guidelines, I guess no one does :closed:

Perhaps in the grand scheme of world leaders out there today, if all things are looked at equally GWB isn't so bad.

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Well, as you are so good at history, you should have noticed that, since WWII, the biggest European nations, which were responsible for most Euraopean wars in the past, including the WWs (Germany, France and England) have become quite peacefull alltogether. And of course, the way the USA became what it is today was all peacefull from the beginning (sarcasm)...

It seems to me that Europeans had learned from the mistakes of the past, unlike the US...
Europe isn't all peacefull and nice and good, I'm aware of that. Nevertheless, we have a lot more different nations and cultures to keep together, which isn't an easy task.

Just one little thing I'd like to add: Before the two WW, the USA never meddled much with other countries. They fought in WW1 and WW2, and, lucky for us Europeans, managed to destroy the Nazi regime (allthough with the help of other European countries and the USSR).
But after that, it seems that they think they have to solve all conflicts in the world (Vietnam and Iraq are just two examples of their miserable failure)...instead of minding their own business, and trying to fix the problems they have in their own country.
So they shouldn't be too much surprised if they are not welcome all over the world, when they are going around, thinking their laws and moralities should apply to all other nations.

And, to be historically correct, the only 2 nuclear bombs ever thrown on an enemy nation were thrown from Americans...something not to be very proud of in my opinion.

i love macs said:

i am just so glad not to be american really, new zealand is a much nicer place.and its laughable that the country that continually preaches democracy has one of the most flawed election systems around.

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Please, enlighten us on how it is "flawed".....

Avalon said:

And, to be historically correct, the only 2 nuclear bombs ever thrown on an enemy nation were thrown from Americans...something not to be very proud of in my opinion.

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Considering the MILLIONS of lives it saved on both sides, I have NO problems with it.
One of the hardest things about studying history is learning that you can't really analyze what happened in the past by looking at it through the eyes of the present. You have to go back and look at the events that happened from the perspective of the time they happened to fully understand them.

baggss said:

Considering the MILLIONS of lives it saved on both sides, I have NO problems with it.
One of the hardest things about studying history is learning that you can't really analyze what happened in the past by looking at it through the eyes of the present. You have to go back and look at the events that happened from the perspective of the time they happened to fully understand them.

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Those poor people in Japan had nothing to do with the war... are you kidding me?

You can't run from a nuclear bomb like you can from a molitov cocktail, they just stood there looking up into the sky knowing that they were going to die.

The America I live in now is not the America that stands for what I love, the one I read about in history books, the one thats peaceful neye:

zeppster said:

Those poor people in Japan had nothing to do with the war... are you kidding me?

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What in the **** are you talking about? The country was at war, and the Japanese are the ones who decided that civilians, even their own, were legitimate targets. The war with the US was immensely popular with the Japanese public. Had an invasion of Japan come, those people would have had LOTS to do with the war. Maybe you need to do some research and clue in before making stupid statements like that. Or are you one those apologists that think that EVERYTHING was the USs fault and we should have just stayed out of the war to begin with?

zeppster said:

The America I live in now is not the America that stands for what I love, the one I read about in history books, the one thats peaceful

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Well, there's always Canada, isn't there....

baggss said:

What in the **** are you talking about? The country was at war, and the Japanese are the ones who decided that civilians, even their own, were legitimate targets. The war with the US was immensely popular with the Japanese public. Had an invasion of Japan come, those people would have had LOTS to do with the war. Maybe you need to do some research and clue in before making stupid statements like that. Or are you one those apologists that think that EVERYTHING was the USs fault and we should have just stayed out of the war to begin with?



Well, there's always Canada, isn't there....

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Okay, so September 11 is to be blamed on American cititzens. Maybe you should learn about how not everyone agrees with war and the way that their country deals with things, they can't change it.

Wow, how did you get that conclusion out of that statement....?

Uh, no 9/11 was not the fault of the American Public, but there are those who would argue it was because we did nothing to stop our governments foreign policy (apparently you are one of them). Big difference here. We were not at war on 9/11, but the Japanese had been at war (a war they openly started) for 4 years. If you don't like it, fine, let your voice be heard. I have no problem with that, but don't suppose that those who disagree with you are not going to challenge your perceptions and ideas with their own.

Comparing t 9/11 with Hiroshima and Nagasaki is is disingenuous at best.