4GB RAM not enough?

Hi,
A couple days after I got my laptop I upgraded the RAM to 4GB (up from 1GB). I feel that it should be running faster then how it does now .. Is there something else I need to do besides swap out the RAM sticks?

Please advise..

RAM will not necessarily increase the speed of all operations. Once you install RAM it will either be seen by the system during POST and be handled by the OS after IML or it won't. There's nothing else you need to do.

RAM will most definitely speed up most operations but the OP may be confused in thinking that it will make his computer fly.

OP: How much stuff do you have running on startup? When was the last time your maintenance scripts ran?

sure, but if an operation is heavily CPU dependent, but light on RAM.. adding RAM will not have a huge effect, same is it's heavy on disk IO

hi
not much is running on startup, dont get me wrong the machine is fast (i got it a week ago or so) its just that wmv videos are laggy thats why i thought it can be faster but other than that im happy

also you mentioned maintenance scripts, how do i run maintenance scripts?

Having more RAM is like having a larger desk. You can have more papers on it (programs running) and don't have to put any away temporarily while working on others (swap/page file).

More RAM will only make your machine faster if your previous amount of RAM was insufficient to host all of the programs you run at any given time.

the best and easiest way in my opinion is to download onyx which if you don't know how to run scripts will take care of all the other things you don't know how to do as well

durkajosh said:

RAM will most definitely speed up most operations but the OP may be confused in thinking that it will make his computer fly.

OP: How much stuff do you have running on startup? When was the last time your maintenance scripts ran?

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More RAM will not speed a computer up at all unless you are replacing it with faster RAM. It will only lower the instances of the computer running SLOWER as a result of virtual memory being used. This is a common misconception when it comes to RAM. You computer wont work faster, it will just not slow down as much.

If your computer had 1 gig of ram it would have been using virtual memory often and slowing down as a result. At 4gigs of ram it shouldn't be having to use virtual memory at all under most circumstances so it won't be slowing down as a result of having to use it (virtual memory being on the hard drive and as a result much slower then RAM).

Going from the 1 gig of RAM to 4gigs of RAM however would NOT have increased the speed of your computer in the slightest for operations that did not result in virtual memory use. Anyone who claims otherwise hasn't a clue about what RAM is.

You want your computer to run faster? Replace the hard drive with a faster one. You can't replace your CPU so that is out of the question. There is simply nothing else you can do that will effect your computers speed beyond that of stock.

theonegod said:

More RAM will not speed a computer up at all unless you are replacing it with faster RAM. It will only lower the instances of the computer running SLOWER as a result of virtual memory being used. This is a common misconception when it comes to RAM. You computer wont work faster, it will just not slow down as much.

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That's incredibly pedantic and could easily confuse people. For all intent and purpose, having more RAM increases performance, because OS X is very good at pre-caching applications and views. More RAM means less HDD access when going back to previously closed documents or web pages or folder views. It also means that you can multi-task much more effectively. Many people compensate for their machine's lack of speed unconsciously by closing apps or only burning a CD or DVD when they're doing nothing else - more RAM means these compromises don't have to be made.

What you said is technically true, but really just adds complexity to a pretty simple subject unnecessarily. Most modern Operating Systems will only replace data in RAM when it runs out. The more you have, the better the performance.

You want your computer to run faster? Replace the hard drive with a faster one. You can't replace your CPU so that is out of the question. There is simply nothing else you can do that will effect your computers speed beyond that of stock.

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I agree with this. The difference between a stock 5400rpm drive and a high-end 7200rpm drive is quite significant - also more free space on a HDD does result in more performance, so get the biggest you can afford.

theonegod said:

More RAM will not speed a computer up at all unless you are replacing it with faster RAM. It will only lower the instances of the computer running SLOWER as a result of virtual memory being used. This is a common misconception when it comes to RAM. You computer wont work faster, it will just not slow down as much.

If your computer had 1 gig of ram it would have been using virtual memory often and slowing down as a result. At 4gigs of ram it shouldn't be having to use virtual memory at all under most circumstances so it won't be slowing down as a result of having to use it (virtual memory being on the hard drive and as a result much slower then RAM).

Going from the 1 gig of RAM to 4gigs of RAM however would NOT have increased the speed of your computer in the slightest for operations that did not result in virtual memory use. Anyone who claims otherwise hasn't a clue about what RAM is.

You want your computer to run faster? Replace the hard drive with a faster one. You can't replace your CPU so that is out of the question. There is simply nothing else you can do that will effect your computers speed beyond that of stock.

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So, not slowing down as often isn't faster?

Fast is all perception. If your computer isn't slowing down as much I think one would perceive it as being...FASTER.

My take on this would be that more RAM will only speed things up if you were previously using all the RAM that you had. If you only need 2 GB, and now you add another 2 GB, that extra 2 GB may just sit idle more or less. As Zoolook points out, OS X may make use of it from time to time, but my guess is that it won't magically speed up your machine if it wasn't using all of the original 2 GB to start with.

As an example, my machine has 2.5 GB (delivered with 0.5 GB and I added 2 GB more). I run MenuMeters and so I can see how much of my RAM is in use. The only time I have EVER seen all my RAM become used was when I was using Copernicus to record a screen movie to RAM vs. disk. Based on this, I conclude that adding more RAM to my machine would have no material impact on speed.

I suspect that you may be in a similar situation. You cannot speed up a computer to ever faster speeds by adding more and more RAM. In the end, you are limited by what your CPU can do. You may be there.

Get iStat and see what your RAM usage is by tapping F12. If your 'Free Memory' is dropping to nothing while you're doing what you normally do, then you should get more RAM.

If it's not dropping to nothing, then getting more RAM likely won't change anything.


Simple enough?

FrayAdjacent said:

Get iStat and see what your RAM usage is by tapping F12. If your 'Free Memory' is dropping to nothing while you're doing what you normally do, then you should get more RAM.

If it's not dropping to nothing, then getting more RAM likely won't change anything.


Simple enough?

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Heh, no it is not simple enough. If your 'free memory' is anything other than 12 or so MB, then your system is not optimising your memory usage - at least according to some.

You should launch Activity Monitor and check out the memory usage there. The combination of Free Memory and Inactive memory is the amount of 'free RAM' you have.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107918

I wouldn't mess with zoolook. He'll whip you with his knowledge.

Glad I didn't get in the middle.

If you really want to see your upgraded RAM in action, then take out the 4 gigs and put in your original RAM. Now, load a graphics-heavy web site in Firefox.

Now, shut down your MacBook and put the 4 gigs back. Go to the same site. Notice how instantly the site draws itself (that is, compared to 1 gig)? I noticed a difference immediately when I upgraded. And no, it's not because of the cache.

BTW...IMHO, if you need more than 4gb, then something's seriously wrong...probably means you play games WAY too much. For cryin' out loud, I own hard drives that are smaller than 4gb!

durkajosh said:

So, not slowing down as often isn't faster?

Fast is all perception. If your computer isn't slowing down as much I think one would perceive it as being...FASTER.

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Nope, not slowing down as much is not the same thing as being faster. You have a baseline speed. From this speed you either slow down or speed up. More ram will not speed you up from this baseline speed. It will only allow you to maintain that baseline speed under more situations and reduce the instances of slowing down. The only way to go faster (on a mac laptop) is to increase the speed of your hard drive. On a desktop there are other items that can speed you up as well that can be replaced but this is the notebook forum so I am keeping it in topic.

Faster is not perception. It is a measurable thing. Your statement leaves allot to assumption. You are assuming a person is slowing down in the first place as a result of not enough RAM. You are also assuming that you are measuring speed from the slowest point in computer use instead of the normal baseline speed at which the computer functions when not overloaded. Further when you make that statement you are making the assumption that a person reading your comment knows enough to understand you don't mean to infer that the computer is truly faster then its previous potential but rather faster then its previous state running while virtual memory is in use. My statement leaves none of that to assumption while still explaining the role RAM plays.

The problem I have with shortcuts in the area of terminology is that people who do not understand the workings of the subject in question take the terminology shortcuts as literal when they are anything but. When a hardware newb sees someone say something lazy like "More memory will speed up a computer" without any qualifiers to the statement they walk away with a misconception. I do everything I can to limit the room for misconception in what I say. It may be a different way of communication then many of you are familiar with but I find it causes less confusion in the long run.

The way I explain things may be different then the way your own brain works, but the body of my statements are not false. Just a different perspective. A perspective with more detail and less left to assumption. Some may indeed view it as pedantic, I would however think that the only people who would view it that way are people who are not my target audience. I say what I say to help educate people who do not already know how RAM works. To them knowing this is not pedantic, as it is to someone to whom the shortcut in terminology is appropriate.

Well said theonegod.

Nope, not slowing down as much is not the same thing as being faster. You have a baseline speed. From this speed you either slow down or speed up. More ram will not speed you up from this baseline speed. It will only allow you to maintain that baseline speed under more situations and reduce the instances of slowing down. The only way to go faster (on a mac laptop) is to increase the speed of your hard drive. On a desktop there are other items that can speed you up as well that can be replaced but this is the notebook forum so I am keeping it in topic.

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I wasn't sure whether to reply to this, because I'd be in danger of being hypocritical, since my answer would be incredibly pedantic, but the above is both playing with semantics as well has being arguably misleading. An appropriate analogy to your argument would be suggesting that removing the wings from a formula one car won't make it faster, because drag only comes into play after a certain speed. i.e., if the baseline speed is 100 mph, then having the wings makes no difference since it can achieve that speed with or without them. The assumption being, this is as fast as the driver wants to go. If the driver wants to go 200 mph, then removing the wings does indeed make the car faster. This is the new baseline speed.

Faster is not perception. It is a measurable thing.

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Since all of our experiences are perceived, this entirely moot.

Your statement leaves allot to assumption. You are assuming a person is slowing down in the first place as a result of not enough RAM. You are also assuming that you are measuring speed from the slowest point in computer use instead of the normal baseline speed at which the computer functions when not overloaded. Further when you make that statement you are making the assumption that a person reading your comment knows enough to understand you don't mean to infer that the computer is truly faster then its previous potential but rather faster then its previous state running while virtual memory is in use. My statement leaves none of that to assumption while still explaining the role RAM plays.

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Almost all machines and processes are only as good as their weakest link, including computers. In my opinion you should measure the performance of your computer based on when it is under the most strain. When I used to reviewed video cards, I always looked for the lowest fps during a benchmark, since it is this, and only this, that indicates whether or not the player will perceive poor frame rates at any point in the game. There are very few reviewers who do this even now, but I happened to think it was important.

The problem I have with shortcuts in the area of terminology is that people who do not understand the workings of the subject in question take the terminology shortcuts as literal when they are anything but. When a hardware newb sees someone say something lazy like "More memory will speed up a computer" without any qualifiers to the statement they walk away with a misconception. I do everything I can to limit the room for misconception in what I say. It may be a different way of communication then many of you are familiar with but I find it causes less confusion in the long run.

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I agree with you here, especially in regard to lazy comments like "get more RAM" or "repair permissions" (one of my 'favourites'). In the case of this thread, the OP is probably not suffering performance issues due to lack of memory.

The way I explain things may be different then the way your own brain works, but the body of my statements are not false. Just a different perspective. A perspective with more detail and less left to assumption. Some may indeed view it as pedantic, I would however think that the only people who would view it that way are people who are not my target audience. I say what I say to help educate people who do not already know how RAM works. To them knowing this is not pedantic, as it is to someone to whom the shortcut in terminology is appropriate.

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I've taken the time to reply to this carefully because that is clearly aimed at me, since I used that word. Your post comes across as being incredibly aloof, as though you're transmitting some special code that only vastly intelligent people will understand. Well, there are plenty of smart people on this board, and I think I would be fair in saying I probably know as much about hardware as anyone here. Suggesting that someone may not be your target audience when you make a statement in a thread, clearly about an individual performance issue, both lacks any sense of community coherence and suggests that whoever didn't 'get' what you'd said, was merely below your entrance point for understanding. There is nothing to suggest you have any right to think you're talking down to the rest of us.

To an extent, I agree it is a matter of perspective, but when you cut through all the bull, as far as OS X is concerned, more memory almost always means better performance. For what it's worth, I think for the low/average user, the sweet spot with Leopard is probably 2 gigs with 4 gigs being a luxury.

Actually I was not saying you would be below my target audience but rather above them. What point is there is trying to explain how RAM works to people who already know? Rather then speaking down to you as you say, I was speaking "up" to you and saying that you know more then enough about this to not need the explanation and as such were not my target audience when it comes to the pedantic nature of my statement.

When you say that all experience is perception I would have to disagree. Perception when used as I was referring to it is implying that the result is variable based on the perception and could vary from one person to another. My point was that speed and the measurable performance of a computer are measurable items with fixed values that are repeatable and are thus not subject to perception in this way.

Measuring a computer based on when it is under the most strain is all well and good under most circumstances. Except where a person might be trying to demonstrate that RAM doesn't in the strictest sense of the words "speed up your computer". For the point I was trying to make using any state of performance other then the computer max unlabored speed as the baseline would have been misleading to the statement that RAM can't increase your computer's speed. Sure, if you want to measure from a state where your computer is under heavy use of virtual memory then more RAM will increase your speed. This is understood by people who know WHY this is happening. My entire post was to explain that this doesn't translate into a speed increase under all loads and never results in a speed increase that exceeds a speed your computer was already capable of with the original ram when not being forced to use virtual memory.

Your analogy of the race car is not one I can really find a way to make relevant. Sure the wings help it drive 200mph if you want to. And sure you can drive 100mph without them. But the car was not capable of the 200mph without them under any circumstances from the way I read your example. That makes this analogy a stretch to me as RAM won't make your computer capable of any speed it was not capable of before assuming that it had enough ram in the first place to operate normally without using virtual memory. The wings on the car on the other hand enable it to reach a speed it was previously incapable of.

if you are saying it was previously capable of the speed and the wings only help it to reach it quicker and more efficiently then sure. I guess it isn't a bad one. My argument however is NOT to not buy the wings. It is just to make it clear to some who may not know, the the wings did not enable to the car to reach a speed previously out of reach. Buying more RAM is a good thing. I have 4gigs in all my Macs.

Again, I was not talking down to you or anyone else by saying some people are not my target audience. Rather I was saying you were above my target audience and therefore my statement WOULD appear pedantic and I was expounding in detail things that you already fully understood.

theonegod said:

Your analogy of the race car is not one I can really find a way to make relevant. Sure the wings help it drive 200mph if you want to. And sure you can drive 100mph without them. But the car was not capable of the 200mph without them under any circumstances from the way I read your example. That makes this analogy a stretch to me as RAM won't make your computer capable of any speed it was not capable of before assuming that it had enough ram in the first place to operate normally without using virtual memory. The wings on the car on the other hand enable it to reach a speed it was previously incapable of.

if you are saying it was previously capable of the speed and the wings only help it to reach it quicker and more efficiently then sure. I guess it isn't a bad one. My argument however is NOT to not buy the wings. It is just to make it clear to some who may not know, the the wings did not enable to the car to reach a speed previously out of reach. Buying more RAM is a good thing. I have 4gigs in all my Macs.

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We're not going to agree, because you're seeing speed as an absolute value, not a relative one, and as an objective value (like GFLOPS or something) not a subjective value (like how long did iTunes appear to take to launch).

I think the point is that speed, for want of a better word, is entirely relative, and I mean that literally as well as figuratively. Whether after a heavy iPhoto session, launching iTunes takes a second (because you still have 4 gigs of 'free RAM') or 3 seconds (because the VM has to be flushed of thumbnails) is a tangible speed difference and something you may never notice, unless you perform a certain set of actions. When I am talking about speed, I am talking about how quickly the machine responds to user requests, not how quickly it can calculate Pi or something. Ergo, adding RAM, in almost all circumstances, increases the machine's performance (notice the switch there?)...

I'll leave it there; I enjoyed that exchange. +1!