Apple sealed-box designs and why they suck

vansmith said:

Maybe not.

The inability for devices to have some sense of longevity is a huge problem - people have been complaining about planned obsolescence for years (albeit for more economic reasons). Making the machine dependent on every single part working every single day is dangerous.

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Scary - and hard to turn a blind eye to it. Clouds of smog are one thing but there's even more dire consequences to the direction the industry is taking...

I won't bore you with links - but if you're interested in how bad of a problem this really is, just Google "e-waste consequences" and prepare yourself for an eye-opening experience.

I don't mean to sound like a zealot or an environmentalist nut, but I think this is a problem we can solve quite easily - and in turn, reap economic benefits from as well as create jobs. We just all have to admit that it's a problem and stop apologizing for companies that contribute to it (and Apple is not alone in this).

cwa107 said:

This is the 'Apple moved my cheese' argument that is typically applied when Apple does something like remove a floppy or CD drive. And I get it - and agree somewhat.

E-waste is a problem for my generation and will be even more so for my children and grandchildren.

And we can change that, but not if we just say stuff like "Oh that's Apple - they do it all the time". I agree that Apple is a leader. I agree that sometimes you have to make clean breaks in order to move a cause further - it's just that in this case, they're setting the trend in a very bad way.

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I think that we are discussing two things:

1. The E-waste problem.
2. Not liking (from a "fun-computing" standpoint) the sealed-box route Apple is currently taking.

The United States (and other countries) have been disposable economies/societies for a long long time (it certainly hasn't started with Apple sealed-boxes). Thus Apple (and other companies) are adding to the problem (certainly didn't start with Apple).

No doubt...recycling/reusing/repurposing has come a long long way over the past 20 years...which is a very good thing. Is there more than can be done...sure.

There are many many many older "Windows boxes" that are not "sealed-box designs"...and they're heading to the junk heap as E-Waste as well. Simply because they are old and obsolete. If the agreed on "average" useful life of the typical personal computer is 5 years (can be many more years in some cases)...then we have will have to see if an Apple sealed box has a shorter lifespan than older Apple non-sealed boxes.

If the Apple sealed box designs still sell well...the Windows world will soon follow (if they aren't already). Because these sealed-boxes are probably less expensive to manufacture...and every company wants to maximize profits...including companies that manufacture Windows computers.

The average computer user is not a "computer-geek-nerd-aholic" like many of us are! They buy a "box" (Mac or Windows)...use it for 3-5 years...rarely do upgrades...then they throw it away and get another. For this majority of computer users (Mac or Windows)...the sealed-box designs are probably just as good of a design as non-sealed boxes.

Personally I do not like the sealed box designs (for multiple reasons). But then again...I probably fall into the "computer-geek-nerd-aholic" category!

- Nick

I wanted to mentioned one other thing regarding the lifespan of Apple non-sealed boxes vs. Apple sealed boxes. As we know...the two main things that we used to be able to upgrade were the ram & storage.

One thing Apple has done (purposefully or not) to elevate the non-upgradeability of ram is...in OS 10.9 (Mavericks)...Apple has come up with the new ways of managing ram.

As far as storage. With many many things being:

- Stored/downloadable/redownloadable from iTunes, the Mac App Store, or "The Cloud" in general.
- Gaming done via sites like Steam.
- Companies like Adobe having Cloud based apps.

This certainly puts less emphasis/strain on having massive amounts of hard drive or SSD storage space inside the computer itself.

Maybe there are ram & storage technologies that are in the "pipeline" that we are not yet aware of. Making non-upgradeable computer designs less restrictive than we think. And what we are currently experiencing is that hardware designs are ahead of these new emerging technologies.

And hey...we all know that folks store way too much "junk" on their computers (long-term)...that doesn't need to be there. So "smarter" internal storage strategies could become more important.

All of these things could still prove in the end...that a sealed box design may have just as long a "useful" lifespan as non-sealed boxes.

- Nick

pigoo3 said:

I think that we are discussing two things:

1. The E-waste problem.
2. Not liking (from a "fun-computing" standpoint) the sealed-box route Apple is currently taking.

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Yes, we are discussing two things, but they go hand-in-hand.

The United States (and other countries) have been disposable economies/societies for a long long time (it certainly hasn't started with Apple sealed-boxes). Thus Apple (and other companies) are adding to the problem (certainly didn't start with Apple).

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Not at all, but we are A) disposing of things at a more accelerated rate, and B) disposing more of them. When a company like Apple is selling iDevices numbering in the tens of millions of units, and they're deliberately made to not last a long time, that's a trend I want to buck, regardless of the precedent.

I think Commodore made something like 12.5 million C64s over a span of 12 years. Those machines were relatively unchanged over that production run and yet, were still quite usable (and could be repaired) into the early 90's.

How many iPad 1s did Apple sell during their one year of production? I've seen numbers that are something like 15 million. And within 18 months, they became obsolete when Apple dropped them from newer OS releases.

Do you see my point? This is only going to get worse.

No doubt...recycling/reusing/repurposing has come a long long way over the past 20 years...which is a very good thing. Is there more than can be done...sure.

There are many many many older "Windows boxes" that are not "sealed-box designs"...and they're heading to the junk heap as E-Waste as well. Simply because they are old and obsolete. If the agreed on "average" useful life of the typical personal computer is 5 years (can be many more years in some cases)...then we have will have to see if an Apple sealed box has a shorter lifespan than older Apple non-sealed boxes.

If the Apple sealed box designs still sell well...the Windows world will soon follow (if they aren't already). Because these sealed-boxes are probably less expensive to manufacture...and every company wants to maximize profits...including companies that manufacture Windows computers.

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I'm not arguing against this at all - Apple is not at all alone in this. My problem is that they are exacerbating the problem and setting the trend for the industry.

Imagine if Apple were to redesign the iPad in such a way that you could remove the screen by simply releasing a few hidden screws. Imagine if you could add storage to it by swapping out a card inside of it. How much more useful would that be? With Apple's marketing muscle, how easily could they sell more iPads? Imagine promoting repairability, sustainability and upgradeability as a feature? And what does it cost them in terms of engineering? Next to nothing.

That would be innovation moving in the right direction.

The average computer user is not a "computer-geek-nerd-aholic" like many of us are! They buy a "box" (Mac or Windows)...use it for 3-5 years...rarely do upgrades...then they throw it away and get another.

For this majority of computer users (Mac or Windows)...the sealed-box designs are probably just as good of a design as non-sealed boxes.

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I disagree. I think given the choice between a model that has a lifespan of 3 years and one that has a lifespan of 5 years or more, most consumers would opt for the latter - even at greater cost.

There's a reason people bought more Hondas than Yugos.

cwa107 said:

I don't mean to sound like a zealot or an environmentalist nut, but I think this is a problem we can solve quite easily - and in turn, reap economic benefits from as well as create jobs.

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I think it's safe to say that being concerned with an obvious and pressing issue doesn't qualify you for "nut job" and if someone says it does, they're just wrong.

pigoo3 said:

I think that we are discussing two things:

1. The E-waste problem.
2. Not liking (from a "fun-computing" standpoint) the sealed-box route Apple is currently taking.

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I think the two are very much linked. The harder companies make it to fix issues inside of your machine, the easier it is to conceptualize buying a new one and disposing of the old one.

Now, I see what you mean - there are two lines of thought going on here.

cwa107 said:

I disagree. I think given the choice between a model that has a lifespan of 3 years and one that has a lifespan of 5 years or more, most consumers would opt for the latter - even at greater cost.

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If we could guarantee that computer "A" will last 3 years...and computer "B" 5 years...I totally agree that most consumers would go with computer "B". Future trends/needs are always hard to predict.

All I know is...whenever the holidays come around...and I'm visiting relatives (of all ages)...there isn't much talk about upgrading the computers in each household. Let's not even talk about remembering passwords!!!

This is where I'm saying that many many households with computers don't give a "hoot" about upgradeability (or even understand what that means). So a sealed-box to them may seem no different than a non-sealed box.

- Nick

Just a couple of things.

I do agree pretty much with everything Chris stated in the OP. As a Computer tech and long time computer enthusiast that also goes back to the Commodore and Atari, it's hard not to agree!

2 points though, The iMacs ARE fixable and upgradeable, even the 21.5" model. Just a tool from iFixit or OWC and you can get in, Change the RAM, Hard drive just like before. Is it harder? Yes and you need Replacement Glue Strips to put it back together. That bugs me but you still can do it.

The other thing I have noticed is some PC hardware (Mostly Notebooks) is going soldered in RAM also and maybe that strange drive. That troubles me even more as it's my business and potential lost $$$ doing upgrades and repairs.

Come on Apple, at least give us back the option to upgrade the RAM!! The SSD while proprietary can be changed with one from OWC, but still a pain and limits choice.

cwa107 said:

Yes, we are discussing two things, but they go hand-in-hand.

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vansmith said:

I think the two are very much linked. The harder companies make it to fix issues inside of your machine, the easier it is to conceptualize buying a new one and disposing of the old one.

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I agree that these two topics can be linked. But on the other hand...some folks may not care much about e-Waste...and are more concerned about the "less fun" aspect of not being able to upgrade their computers.

When I'm out running on the roads...and I see all sorts of things tossed from automobiles:

- beer bottles/cans, soda bottles/cans, beverage bottles/cans
- fast food restaurant waste (packaging & food)
- empty cigarette packs
- old discarded empty cigarette lighters
- tampon applicators (yes I see lots of these)
- etc. etc.

Many of these folks own cell phones, computers, tablets, etc....and they obviously don't have much concern for e-waste...or any other form of waste.

Just depends on the persons perspective/concerns/priorities.

- Nick

dtravis7 said:

Just a couple of things.

I do agree pretty much with everything Chris stated in the OP. As a Computer tech and long time computer enthusiast that also goes back to the Commodore and Atari, it's hard not to agree!

2 points though, The iMacs ARE fixable and upgradeable, even the 21.5" model. Just a tool from iFixit or OWC and you can get in, Change the RAM, Hard drive just like before. Is it harder? Yes and you need Replacement Glue Strips to put it back together. That bugs me but you still can do it.

The other thing I have noticed is some PC hardware (Mostly Notebooks) is going soldered in RAM also and maybe that strange drive. That troubles me even more as it's my business and potential lost $$$ doing upgrades and repairs.

Come on Apple, at least give us back the option to upgrade the RAM!! The SSD while proprietary can be changed with one from OWC, but still a pain and limits choice.

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In many cases, I'd be satisfied if I could just easily open the case. Just recently, I replaced the front glass/digitizer on my iPad 3. It was a pain to get in there due to all the adhesive. That took nearly 75% of the time.

While I was in there, I thought a bit about the purpose of the adhesive - and really, there isn't one from a standpoint of technology or structural integrity. All they would have had to do is have two tabs at the top of the screen and two tabs at the bottom. If the bottom half had two screws through the case that met the tabs, it would be just as solid - but you could get in there with little hassle. It wouldn't add any weight, it wouldn't add any thickness.

Frankly, I think they just did it to discourage the average Joe. I have a very big problem with that.

I'm not doubting the data on e-waste, but I would be surprised to learn that a lot of people throw computers and tablets and mobile phones in the garbage when they upgrade or they become obsolete.I personally have passed on 2 desktops and my first gen iPad to friends and relatives who were fine with the specs and performance of those machines. I wanted to upgrade and I found a home for the older tech. I sold mine and the wife's iPhones when upgraded to the 5. I'm just surprised to hear a lot of people throw this stuff away. I've even taken printers and old mobile phones (flip phone and a BB) to electronic recycling dropoffs.

cwa107 said:

Frankly, I think they just did it to discourage the average Joe. I have a very big problem with that.

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<-- I am Joe...

cwa107 said:

In many cases, I'd be satisfied if I could just easily open the case. Just recently, I replaced the front glass/digitizer on my iPad 3. It was a pain to get in there due to all the adhesive. That took nearly 75% of the time.

While I was in there, I thought a bit about the purpose of the adhesive - and really, there isn't one from a standpoint of technology or structural integrity. All they would have had to do is have two tabs at the top of the screen and two tabs at the bottom. If the bottom half had two screws through the case that met the tabs, it would be just as solid - but you could get in there with little hassle. It wouldn't add any weight, it wouldn't add any thickness.

Frankly, I think they just did it to discourage the average Joe. I have a very big problem with that.

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Agree 100%. The iPad One was relativity easy to get into and used Tabs like you just mentioned. From the 2 or 3 on though it's a pain and I agree.

When you did your Retina iPad did you hurt the bezel at all? Most of the take apart videos I have seen show it being damaged and needing to be replaced. That turned me off.

dtravis7 said:

Agree 100%. The iPad One was relativity easy to get into and used Tabs like you just mentioned. From the 2 or 3 on though it's a pain and I agree.

When you did your Retina iPad did you hurt the bezel at all? Most of the take apart videos I have seen show it being damaged and needing to be replaced. That turned me off.

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No, I didn't damage anything. I was very slow and deliberate. I think a lot of folks get excited when the glass starts to separate and then they get more aggressive.

The hardest part was to get a tool into the space between the bezel and the glass. Fortunately, the iPad I was working on is a Verizon model and it has a plastic portion at the top. The plastic has some give, so it's easy to start there.

pigoo3 said:

When I'm out running on the roads...and I see all sorts of things tossed from automobiles:
[...]
- tampon applicators (yes I see lots of these)

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Uh, what? But why?

MYmacROX said:

I'm not doubting the data on e-waste, but I would be surprised to learn that a lot of people throw computers and tablets and mobile phones in the garbage when they upgrade or they become obsolete.

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A lot of people don't have people to pass things along to nor do they feel comfortable selling it somewhere like Craigslist. I think that number may be higher than you think.

To the topic at hand: let's take computers out of the equation for a moment and let's focus on mobile devices, those devices that aren't user upgradeable and have short lifespans. Not only are these selling like hotcakes but they lose their functionality at a much greater rate than computers. Add to that the notion that most of those won't be recycled and you start to have a whole new problem beyond the computer one.

vansmith said:

To the topic at hand: let's take computers out of the equation for a moment and let's focus on mobile devices, those devices that aren't user upgradeable and have short lifespans. Not only are these selling like hotcakes but they lose their functionality at a much greater rate than computers. Add to that the notion that most of those won't be recycled and you start to have a whole new problem beyond the computer one.

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Absolutely. However, even the oldest smartphone makes a good phone - and anything else it can do is just icing on the cake for many in need. Thankfully a good many companies are offering recycling options for handsets. And there are many charities that will send you a mailer to send your phone to them for recycling. It's still a big problem, I'll admit it - but not as much as it is with computers, just by virtue of their sheer bulk.

Maybe raising awareness of electronics recycling is a more realistic approach. Or at the very least, it might be a good place to start.

Increase in public awareness can drive up demand for such facilities or drop-boxes for used electronics and demand drives supply. Many of the Target brand stores in the city I live in have recycle boxes for used plastic bags, plastic bottles, and used electronics. And even some of the grocery stores have places to recycle your used plastic grocery bags. Recycling/re-using is a well-known concept, but as pointed out, it's probably not something most people think of when it comes to electronics.

There are a ton of groups that give useable "obsolete" electronics to servicemen and women. That's were some of my stuff goes anyhow. An iPad 1st Gen works just fine on a base in Crapistan.

XJ-linux said:

There are a ton of groups that give useable "obsolete" electronics to servicemen and women. That's were some of my stuff goes anyhow. An iPad 1st Gen works just fine on a base in Crapistan.

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Exactly - One man's trash...

We could all find ways to minimize what goes in the landfills.

BTW, I like your Atlas Shrugged (John Galt) reference and Johnny Cash quote. You sir, have good taste.

MYmacROX said:

Exactly - One man's trash...

We could all find ways to minimize what goes in the landfills.

BTW, I like your Atlas Shrugged (John Galt) reference and Johnny Cash quote. You sir, have good taste.

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Thank you!

Point…Counterpoint. Good conversation/discussion…it's all good!

- Nick