Possible IMAC HD/RAM/logic board failure-help please!

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I have a mid-2007 iMac that had a hd replaced under warranty when it was about 2 1/2 yrs old. Now the same mac is crashing (meaning random terminal beach ball, which can only be fixed by powering off with the power switch) with increasing frequency, sometimes only running OK for a few min. tops. I re-formatted the HD, reinstalled Snow Leopard, and did a Time Machine restore (running Snow Leopard up to date). It ran fine for about 2 days then the problem popped up again. Apple Hardware test checks OK, and verify disk checks OK. Could this still be a failing HD, bad RAM, or what? Any suggestions on the guilty culprit? There are no sounds inside the unit except maybe normal HD sounds. I have ran the SMART utility and the HD checks OK, Rember tests the RAM OK, I have booted in safe mode to clear caches, I have reset PRAM several times, all with varying degrees of success, sometimes fixing it for a day then back to CRAP! I am ready to tear out what little hair I have left. Could this be a symptom of a bad logic board? Please don't let me down, I've been such an Apple fan since I switched in 2007. Thanks.
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How much ram do you have?

It would also help if you broke up your post a bit...there are a lot of details there!;)

- Nick
 
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How much ram do you have?

It would also help if you broke up your post a bit...there are a lot of details there!;)

- Nick

4 gigs, never had a problem before, I haven't added any new programs, and when this happens I'm not doing much more than checking e-mail, when I do look at activity monitor it shows 3G or more free. Sorry I threw a lot into my initial post, just trying to mention all I have tried. Since Apple Hardware test checks OK, and Rember and the SMART HD utility both show OK, could this be a sign of a failing logic board, and is this the same as motherboard in PC talk?
 

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4 gigs, never had a problem before, I haven't added any new programs, and when this happens I'm not doing much more than checking e-mail, when I do look at activity monitor it shows 3G or more free. Sorry I threw a lot into my initial post, just trying to mention all I have tried. Since Apple Hardware test checks OK, and Rember and the SMART HD utility both show OK, could this be a sign of a failing logic board, and is this the same as motherboard in PC talk?

What size HD do you have...and how much free space is there?

When was the last time you repaired Disk Permissions?

- Nick
 
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There is approx. 100G free on a 320G HD, and I just repaired permissions, this seems to fix things for a day or so, then hello beach ball! I'm at my wits end.
 

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There is approx. 100G free on a 320G HD, and I just repaired permissions, this seems to fix things for a day or so, then hello beach ball! I'm at my wits end.

You need to keep an eye on the statistics in "Activity Monitor"...especially the "Page-Outs" and "Swap Used". When these get too big...you can start getting a lot of "Beach Balls".

Depending on how you use your computer...you may need to restart the computer more often...since restarting the computer will wipe these values to zero.

A ram upgrade can help. With a mid-2007 iMac...Apple says max ram is 4gig...but it can actually be upgraded to 6gig. But honestly...if you just spend the 5 minutes needed every couple days to restart the computer...you would probably be fine with the current 4gig of ram.

- Nick
 
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at this point I'm willing to try anything. Last week I did a complete erase and reinstall of Snow Leopard followed by a complete Time Machine restore; this seemed to get rid of problems for a day. Last night I simply reinstalled Snow Leopard over top of the existing install upon advice of someone else, this helped a few hours or maybe it was a coincidence. This problem has been developing over the last month and a half, it started out only freezing once a day, now it's intolerable. I do have a complete Time Machine backup as well as a Carbonite backup. Would it make any difference if I just reinstalled Snow Leopard after erasing the HD, then installing only the apps I want, then finally restoring only my user files/documents? All the hardware tests I have ran say my HW is OK, would taking it in to an authorized repair shop show anything different?
 

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Are you by any chance running MacKeeper or any AntiVirus Applications?
Both are known to cause problems.

For that matter, what APPs are you running?
 

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at this point I'm willing to try anything. Last week I did a complete erase and reinstall of Snow Leopard followed by a complete Time Machine restore; this seemed to get rid of problems for a day. Last night I simply reinstalled Snow Leopard over top of the existing install upon advice of someone else, this helped a few hours or maybe it was a coincidence. This problem has been developing over the last month and a half, it started out only freezing once a day, now it's intolerable. I do have a complete Time Machine backup as well as a Carbonite backup. Would it make any difference if I just reinstalled Snow Leopard after erasing the HD, then installing only the apps I want, then finally restoring only my user files/documents? All the hardware tests I have ran say my HW is OK, would taking it in to an authorized repair shop show anything different?

See post #6 in this thread.

- Nick
 
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I would do as the previous poster suggested as well, but considering how little you seem to be running the system, I doubt that would be a problem.

Typically problems of this nature are often caused by a hard drive in the process of developing problems, a fault in the cabling to the hard drive, or an intermittent cracked trace (bad logic board).

There are only two tools that I know of that can address this properly. One is Apple's Hardware Test for system diagnositics run in a continuous mode to check the RAM and CPU, and the other is to use Scannerz to analyze the hard drive for developing problems with the drive and detect intermittent faults in the path between the drive and the logic board. Apple's Hardware Test should be on one of your OS disks and is available on the web, and you can obtain Scannerz from:

Home

With luck, you won't need Scannerz, and it will turn out to be something like a bad RAM chip or something trivial and easily fixable. With bad luck you'll get erratic readings during prolonged read/writes of the CPU/memory test which typically implies that a crack has developed on the logic board and it's making intermittent contact.

If it passes Apple's Hardware tests for memory and CPU, I'd move on to Scannerz. I would avoid generic tools like TechTools Pro or Drive Genius because they run generic tests on a hard drive, whereas Scannerz monitors hard drive timing and data rates and indicates oddities in time as irregularities. Unless a drive has blatant errors, TechTools Pro, Drive Genius, and even Apple's Hardware Test will miss these.

The good things about Scannerz are as follows:

a) If your in the US they offer tech support for their product and can assist you.
b) It can detect faults in the path from the logic board to the drive.
c) It includes FSE-Lite which can identify a process that's a disk hog (another source of spinning beach balls)
d) They have a free demo download of it available, but it's pretty thoroughly castrated unless your primary HD is 10G or less in size (unlikely for anyone these days) Maybe you'll luck out and find a problem within the 1st 10G though?
e) It supposedly (note that word: SUPPOSEDLY) has some support for SSDs. This is unconfirmed by me.

The bad things about Scannerz are as follows:

a) It costs money (but it's still a lot cheaper than Apple if you need them to troubleshoot something)
b) To get detailed tech support (advanced support?) you have to set up an appointment.
c) Unless you're fairly well hardware versed, some of the things they describe in their manual are likely over the head of non-technical people.
d) Probing a unit for cracked traces, bad cables, etc. usually requires opening the unit up.
e) It's manual is huge and the interface isn't terribly good looking (no razzle-dazzle, if that's REALLY important to you)

If you're lucky it will be something stupid like a bad RAM chip, an improperly seated RAM chip (worth checking), a failing hard drive (they're cheap these days), or a poorly seated cable to the HD (you did have it replaced once, right?) If you're unlucky it will be a failing logic board chip, a cracked trace somewhere in the logic board, or a system where some of Apple's overseas assemblers decided to save money by "improvising" their own cost saving measures by using inferior quality parts - Don't even get me started on that one!

Good Luck!
 
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I thought I had my problem fixed yesterday; I installed Snow Leopard totally clean, then iLife 09, Office 08, Photoshop Elements & Firefox. All appeared to be fine, then I did a Time Machine restore of my prev. system to a separate user folder. After this I started getting the old familiar beach balls. I'm presently running the Apple hardware test in extended mode to check out the RAM/CPU, after that if all checks OK it's off to Micro Center, they charge $69 to diagnose problems, if it turns out to be a bad HD I'll replace it myself, I've put together enough PCs and all I'll need will be an extra pair of hands around the house & those are free. This problem has been developing over the last month or so, at first going a day between a major freeze, now you rarely get 15 min. Does this sound like a bad HD?? Just like to know if I'm headed in the right direction, thanks.
 

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I'm presently running the Apple hardware test in extended mode to check out the RAM/CPU, after that if all checks OK it's off to Micro Center, they charge $69 to diagnose problems, if it turns out to be a bad HD I'll replace it myself, I've put together enough PCs and all I'll need will be an extra pair of hands around the house & those are free.

Personally I wouldn't waste my money having Micro Center doing any diagnosis. They probably know next to nothing about Macintosh computers...so you'll just be wasting $69 bucks.

Look at it this way. The HD is pretty much the only thing you can replace. If you replace the HD:

- and everything works...then you're good.
- if not...then it wasn't the HD (and return the HD)

The only other thing you can test/replace is the ram. If you have more than 1 stick of ram in the computer...then you can pull 1 stick (leave the other one in)...and test the computer with 1 stick of ram. Then do the opposite with the other stick (I'm betting it's the HD though).

Does this sound like a bad HD?? Just like to know if I'm headed in the right direction, thanks.

If you tried some of the things I posted earlier (and that didn't help)...then yes...it sounds like a bad HD to me.

- Nick

p.s. If it's neither the HD or the ram...then you have MUCH bigger problem...and if so...then it's time for a new computer!
 
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I just finished the extended apple HW test, it took > 1 hr, and it said all was OK. I guess I'm off to the store to get a new HD, the HD inside is a hitachi 320G 7200rpm SATA, any brands better? It is a mid-2007 Intel iMac The only reason I was going to micro center is that they replaced my 1st bad hd under warranty about 3 yrs ago (couldn't even see the apple on the machine then). I guess with macs you boot from the OS X disc and format the drive from there, right? Thank you for all your help, if this doesn't work it's new mac time again.
 

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I guess I'm off to the store to get a new HD, the HD inside is a hitachi 320G 7200rpm SATA, any brands better?

I would just go with what's the least expensive...you could go with a 5400 or 7200rpm drive (of course 7200 would be faster). Any of the major brands (Hitachi, Western Digital, Seagate, etc.).

It is a mid-2007 Intel iMac The only reason I was going to micro center is that they replaced my 1st bad hd under warranty about 3 yrs ago (couldn't even see the apple on the machine then).

Hey...if we're talking warranty coverage...and there was no nearby Apple Store...I would go to Micro Center as well.:) But if we're talking no warranty (which we are) I don't want to "train" non-Mac familiar Micro Center employees on my Mac's!;)

I guess with macs you boot from the OS X disc and format the drive from there, right?

You got it!:)

- install the drive
- boot from the OS disk
- format the drive (Mac OS extended-journaled)
- install the OS

Good luck...hopefully the new HD does the job!:):)

- Nick
 
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I don't know if I'd toss the iMac out just because you have a problem. There are other options:

1. Try to troubleshoot the SATA cable and make sure it doesn't have an intermittent connection or a break in it.

2. If there's a cracked trace on the logic board somewhere between the I/O controller and the SATA interface connector cable, the unit could still likely be used with the drive in an external housing (FireWire).

You would need to confirm either of those (if they happen at all after you install the new drive).

One thing that caught my eye was that you did a Time Machine backup and after restoring it you started getting the spinning beach balls. This makes me wonder if the file systems indexing isn't corrupted. The first few Megabytes of the HD store what amounts to a little "database" (B-Tree) that tells the system where to go to find files on the drive. For example, if you want to open a file, the files contents may be spread over several logical blocks on the hard drive. It's sort of like the CPU is going and asking this "database" where all the blocks that make up the file are, and in what order they are to be read. If the indices are screwed up, what would happen would be that the initial files would open and then start pointing at data that likely wouldn't make sense to the system when an application is run.

If you still have problems after installing the new HD, then you might want to run verify, repair disk permissions, and repair disk on your Time Machine drive. That can usually solve indexing problems, but if it doesn't then you'll need a tool called "Disk Warrior" available at the following site:

DiskWarrior 4 - The Disk Utility for Mac Disk Repair, Mac Directory Repair, Mac Disk Recovery, Mac Data Recovery

This, of course, is a lot of "what if's?" Your problem may already be fixed for all I know.

By the way, I am NOT the regional sales rep for DiskWarrior and Scannerz.:Cool:
 
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I did a totally clean install then after it appeared for a day that all was ok I did my TM restore of the User file only no apps other than what I clean installed could something in the User I restored be corrupt? My only other choice will be to crack the Mac open and replace the hard drive.
 
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Whenever you have a problem, it needs to be isolated step by step. If you haven't already replaced the HD in the unit, I would:

1. Use the install disks to re-format the hard internal hard drive (I assume you TM back up is external. This will give you a clean OS.

2. Perform all software updates on the OS. This is critical. During this time, if the spinning beach ball appears it means it's a hardware of HD problem and you can skip the rest of the steps.

3. If after doing all this, the system is still running OK use diskutil to verify all permissions on the backup, verify the disk, and repair it (if needed). The repair isn't really repairing anything, it's just correcting index problems. I'm going to assume that this will fix anything (maybe I shouldn't, but I'm going to assume so). Do not re-install the backup yet.

The key here is to isolate the problem. If the spinning beach balls don't appear at all after your clean install, you might want to try and use the system for a while to see if they appear. They can be erratic and disappear for a day or two then crop up again. If they don't appear after a while, I would try to restore the system. If it's still working fine after restoring then the problem is fixed.

If the system runs fine without the backup restored, then it's likely an indexing problem of some sort and you'll need DiskWarrior to fix it (if it's fixable). If the beach balls re-appear even without the backup installed, then it's a hardware problem and you wish to try and isolate it, use Scannerz. Stay away from some of the other Mickey Mouse tools - they just give misleading results. Another tool that's good (and I always forget about) is SmartReporter (which is free). The problem with S.M.A.R.T. is that it isn't. SMART is erratically implemented from manufacturer to manufacturer, HOWEVER, if you run a SMART check on your drive and it shows absolutely nothing wrong at all then it will tend to indicate the problem is with the backup drives indexing. I'm not knocking SmartReporter, by the way, I'm knocking the erratic manner drive manufactures have implemented it.

My guess (and that's what it is, a guess) is that it's probably the hard drive. If you're not experienced opening these things up, it's worth a shot to try and identify other problems before doing so.

Doing OS updates is important because the way OSes operate these days, there's no such thing as a static binary (hardly, anyway) anymore. Nearly all applications use dynamic libraries and they're frequently changed from update to update. They're typically backward compatible with previous release, but they can't see into the future and are thus not forward compatible. If you tried running an application restored from your backup on a system that wasn't up to date, the results could be erratic.

Hope this helps.
 
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I just wanted to make sure I'm on the same page, should I reinstall the OS on the existing HD again clean, update it, then let it run this way for a day before installing the TM restore? I don't run anything exotic, mainly Office 08, Firefox, iLife, and maybe Photoshop Elements. When you mention using Disk Warrior did you mean repair my TM backup or my internal HD? I was wondering if something in the TM backup is screwed up (sorry about the technical talk), which is why the beach balls occur after restoring TM. I don't mean to be a pest, and I really do appreciate all the advice. I'm willing to go "under the hood" if necessary, it will be a bit more of an adventure than a PC.
 
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I also wanted to mention that when I did do the last clean install I ran the updates until they were all current.
 
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Yes, do a clean install on the existing internal HD (the one suspected of being bad). Do all the updates, and use it for a few days (unless yee old beach balls start appearing again). If the beach balls appear, at this stage it's definitely a hardware problem.

If the beach balls never appear I'd go ahead and test and verify the external backup hard drive. It may find some errors on it that are causing the problems. If it reports errors and says it's fixed them then i would try to do another restore. If you start having errors that diskutil can't fix, then you might need DiskWarrior on the backup drive.

With luck you may not need to buy anything! ;)



Good luck and keep us posted.
 

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