Apple sealed-box designs and why they suck

I think you just answered your own question, Exodist. Since there is already one app included on all Macs that does support RTF (and dozens of free third-party options), and since you still have your old Pages which still opens RTFs (and does all the other things) why should it be a priority on the "returned features" list in Pages? I have full confidence that they'll get to it.

Certainly its annoying that they took it out, but they didn't just do that for grins. This Pages is a total rebuild with a larger goal (wider compatibility, 64-bit futureproofing) that was not accomplishable by just updating the old version, and it was consumers themselves that were the ones who lacked the patience to wait another year or two for a new version, not Apple. So they issued the programs with all the core functionality intact (I use Pages and Keynote every day, and find them better than the old versions for my purposes) and promised to add back in the old features and more, which the latest update proves they weren't kidding about.

If the company didn't have a VERY VERY LONG track record of doing this, and the end product inevitably ending up WAY better than the old version, I'd be furious. But they do, and they didn't overwrite my old Pages, so I'm not in the least bit concerned.

chas_m said:

I think you just answered your own question, Exodist. .......

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LOL not me.. ;D

chas_m said:

Since there is already one app included on all Macs that does support RTF (and dozens of free third-party options), and since you still have your old Pages which still opens RTFs (and does all the other things) why should it be a priority on the "returned features" list in Pages?

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Because TextEdit can do only a fraction of what RTF supports and every modern word processor supports it, making it the closest thing we have to a universal format? This is what would bother me if I used Pages for anything beyond newsletters (which it does quite well).

chas_m said:

Certainly its annoying that they took it out, but they didn't just do that for grins. This Pages is a total rebuild with a larger goal (wider compatibility, 64-bit futureproofing) that was not accomplishable by just updating the old version, and it was consumers themselves that were the ones who lacked the patience to wait another year or two for a new version, not Apple.

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That doesn't justify the removal of support. It was already there and there's no reason not to support it. In fact, according to Wikipedia, it was there with version 5.0 (source) so it was removed with a bugfix release (5.0.1). Does this mean that Apple thought support for it was a bug? And this is the point of this thread - the closing off of functionality for...some reason. There's a trend in limiting the utility of Apple devices and software despite the fact that there's no reason to do so. Simplicity of design only gets you so far. I still like Apple computers (iPhones on the other hand need major work) but they're making it harder to justify an inevitable upgrade with each passing year (as of the last three years or so).

Apple should take a close look at GNOME desktop from version 1.0 till the modern 3.0. You may ask what this has to do with anything. Reading Vans post he mentioned taking away features (and I agree with him) to simplify an application and the systems as a whole. GNOME team started doing this about mid version 2.something.. Its been a while. But they started removing perfectly fine features because the team felt, it made the DE to complicated or didn't style right. **** they removed the stupid Screen Saver preview Button at one point and I had to get into a debate and go to the teams leader to get it put back. Stupid stuff like that.. Well anyway as of version 3.now. People have jumped ship, Ubuntu team found it so unusable and un consistent they built their own desktop UI. Point being, at some point they (Apple) have/has to find balance and get over ones OCD..

Yeah, GNOME 3 is it's own special type of simple. That's oversimplification at it's finest (not necessarily a good thing).

Exodist said:

Point being, at some point they (Apple) have/has to find balance and get over ones OCD..

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And they always do. Thats why I can't understand to furore over this. Look at the new FCP X not so long ago, when it first came out, and now look at it now. For a long time it stood on 1 ½ Stars and now its up too 4 Stars. Why ?? Because Apple found that middle ground and listened to their customers. Heck they just became the most valuable company in the world, taking over Coke, so they have to be doing something right.

TattooedMac said:

And they always do. Thats why I can't understand to furore over this. Look at the new FCP X not so long ago, when it first came out, and now look at it now. For a long time it stood on 1 ½ Stars and now its up too 4 Stars. Why ?? Because Apple found that middle ground and listened to their customers.

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But how does that justify the removal of functionality in the first place? This is the point of this discussion - Apple seems to be taking a path with their products that doesn't make much sense until people complain a lot. For a company that seems to think it gets consumers, it's having a hard time getting that right out of the gate as of late. Ultimately, this is all about asking why Apple is making choices such as those with the initial version of FCP X or with the new designs of their machines.

TattooedMac said:

Heck they just became the most valuable company in the world, taking over Coke, so they have to be doing something right.

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Corporate value is not a measure of quality. If that were the case, MS and Google would also be doing something right since they're number 3 and 4 in terms of market cap, not to mention that you'd have to make the claim that Walmart is a beacon of quality.

vansmith said:

But how does that justify the removal of functionality in the first place? This is the point of this discussion - Apple seems to be taking a path with their products that doesn't make much sense until people complain a lot. For a company that seems to think it gets consumers, it's having a hard time getting that right out of the gate as of late. Ultimately, this is all about asking why Apple is making choices such as those with the initial version of FCP X or with the new designs of their machines.

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No it doesn't, but, all companies, and that includes Apple, have a vision for their Company, Products, Hardware/Software something doesn't go their way, and they then react to the customer base. . . .

vansmith said:

Corporate value is not a measure of quality. If that were the case, MS and Google would also be doing something right since they're number 3 and 4 in terms of market cap, not to mention that you'd have to make the claim that Walmart is a beacon of quality.

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Your so correct, it doesn't. But honestly, for a company like Apple, they don't get there without sales, and sales give you some sense of quality. So quality has part ownership in the value of a Company. If they didn't make quality products, or Software then they wouldn't be where they are now.

TattooedMac said:

But honestly, for a company like Apple, they don't get there without sales, and sales give you some sense of quality.

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Walmart, McDonalds and Coca-Cola - three huge companies right there that don't make quality products (well, they might be high quality version of bad things).

Back on topic, I notice that this issue of sealed in machines extends to more and more smartphones. I know someone right now fighting with a terrible iPhone 4S that never seems to know how much battery it has left and after restoring it and watching things, the phone is still acting up. For all I know, the issue is the battery but I have no way of helping her test that theory because everything is sealed in (this is hardly exclusive to Apple - most smartphone makers seal in components now).

vansmith said:

Walmart, McDonalds and Coca-Cola - three huge companies right there that don't make quality products (well, they might be high quality version of bad things).

Back on topic, I notice that this issue of sealed in machines extends to more and more smartphones. I know someone right now fighting with a terrible iPhone 4S that never seems to know how much battery it has left and after restoring it and watching things, the phone is still acting up. For all I know, the issue is the battery but I have no way of helping her test that theory because everything is sealed in (this is hardly exclusive to Apple - most smartphone makers seal in components now).

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Slightly OT, but my wife's 4S is the same way, particularly since iOS 7. It drains the battery significantly faster than my 5 or even my old 4. I have been through the settings with a fine tooth comb and nothing is out of place. It will make a 20% jump just sitting in her purse for an hour.

I even swapped the battery out (which incidentally is not too bad of a job), but that did nothing. Fortunately, her contract is up on Thursday and we'll be getting her a 5C to replace it.

She's having the same issue. It will report 30% battery and then just die. Upon rebooting, it'll have 10% battery only to have 40% battery two minutes later. It's a bit of a mystery and the worst part is that this was a solution to a weird issue with randomly dropped calls (which is better but still very much an issue). So, she went from one issue to another.

TattooedMac said:

And they always do. ...........

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I agree with you.


I had to think on this for a few days.....

You know, since Tim has took over as CEO they really have been doing a lot more listening to customer base. Steve was very eccentric at time, often in a good way pushing towards innovation. But at times he flat out would not listen to customers. Tim on the other hand does truly seemed concerned and there have been numerous times that customers have walked up to him and he would stand and listen to what they had to say, this is something you didn't see from Steve.

One has to also look at this from two points. Tim has two responsibilities as CEO. One is to satisfy the vision of the board, while at the same time satisfying the demands of Apples customer base.

So if the sealed design becomes to much of a pain, I am sure Apple will eventually address this issue. Its just at the moment, to get the thinner, seamless design the board is calling for. The only sure fire way to make it as solid as possible is to glue it. And I say that with great despair as I hate gluing stuff. But snappy clips do break over time and they do hanse a tendency to squeak.

That said, I really wished they would had a way of putting a 2.5" HDD bay in the back with the RAM slots. That way the user can add more RAM and HDD in the future and not have to open the system and void the warranty.

Cheers,
Joe

cwa107 said:

Slightly OT, but my wife's 4S is the same way, particularly since iOS 7. It drains the battery significantly faster than my 5 or even my old 4. I have been through the settings with a fine tooth comb and nothing is out of place. It will make a 20% jump just sitting in her purse for an hour.

I even swapped the battery out (which incidentally is not too bad of a job), but that did nothing. Fortunately, her contract is up on Thursday and we'll be getting her a 5C to replace it.

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Just question. Does she close the applications down when she is done with them. Or is she like my wife and when I dbl tap the home button about 20 things are still in ram running?

Exodist said:

Just question. Does she close the applications down when she is done with them. Or is she like my wife and when I dbl tap the home button about 20 things are still in ram running?

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She leaves them running, as do I. Technically, AppNap should be pausing them if they're dormant every so often. It doesn't seem to effect battery life on my 5, I figured it would be the same with her 4S.

Excellent thread, and very timely. Not being able to either upgrade or repair the newest Macbook Pro's with Retina displays will most likely keep me from buying one of those in the future.

I transitioned from PCs to Macs when I bought my 15" Macbook Pro in late 2008. It's over 5-years-old now, but over the past year I did a major upgrade on it and it's still an awesome machine (and lightning fast). Presently running 8 GB of memory, replaced the 320GB 5400 RPM hard drive with a 750GB 7200 RPM unit, removed the DVD Superdrive and replaced it with a 128GB SSD, and upgraded to Mavericks (run the operating system and applications on the SSD). All of that was quite easy to do myself. Since my Macbook Pro came stock with a dual-video setup, didn't have to mess with that. When on the desk, I use a dual-display setup (let it drive my 24" Samsung LCD and use the Macbook Pro's display as the extended display).

That being said, none of that would've been possible if I owned a Retina display Macbook Pro. So instead of getting a potential 7-8 years out of a $2,500 machine (roughly $300 per year cost), the Retina display models might well get only 4-5 years (bringing the costs up to closer to $500 per year, or more). And if the puppy breaks during that time, no way to repair it on your own, so the repair costs will be magnified as well.

Have thought about buying a smaller 13" Macbook Pro non-Retina model with 8GB memory, dual-core i7 processor, 750GB 5400 RPM hard drive and upgrading it by replacing the Superdrive with a 256GB SSD. Found them online today for $1,229 delivered from a major Apple distributor. Add in the cost of the 256GB SSD ($140-$170) and it still comes out to about $1,400 for a pretty spectacular machine (RAM could be upgraded to 16GB later if needed). Although the non-Retina display will only show to 1280x800 pixels on its non-Retina display, the specs show that the Intel HD Graphics 4000 will drive an extended display up 2560x1600 on an external display that's capable of that resolution.

I just hope that Apple keeps manufacturing that non-Retina model though.

I just hope that Apple keeps manufacturing that non-Retina model though.

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If you want that machine, buy it now. The next refresh of the MacBook Pro will be later this year and I'm betting the non retina 13" MBP will no longer be sold by Apple.

chscag said:

If you want that machine, buy it now. The next refresh of the MacBook Pro will be later this year and I'm betting the non retina 13" MBP will no longer be sold by Apple.

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I'd go as far as to put money on that. There's little hope that it'll survive the next refresh.

Things are changing and not for the good. We (Mac users) went though a dark time years ago, but Steve came back. This time he won't be able to.
How many of you remember needing a special tool to open your Mac+ to upgrade the ram? The next generation fixed that problem! In the old days it was free support for life, that died many years ago. Free OS that died with OS7.

However what pisses me off right now, is dropping support for older OSs. My first generation iPad were doing well together, until I could no longer update. While I had thought about getting a new one, I didn't like the idea of being forced to buy a new one. So now I use my new iPad Air, but my first generation is still here and works great… other than it can't run a couple of apps I enjoy.

chscag said:

If you want that machine, buy it now. The next refresh of the MacBook Pro will be later this year and I'm betting the non retina 13" MBP will no longer be sold by Apple.

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Unfortunately I expect that you're right. Apple has virtually no incentive to keep manufacturing it.

I keep wondering though how long it'll be before Apple comes out with a touch-screen hybrid like Microsoft's Surface Pro. That'd change a lot of things.

I love my iPad Air, but from a productivity standpoint it leaves a lot to be desired (even with a Bluetooth keyboard). I am finding more and more uses for it, but for most things I do, my 15" Macbook Pro gets the job done much faster.

Have bought and set up a couple of Mac Mini's for folks here at my church, and they're quite nice. But by the time you buy an i7 Mac Mini with 8GB memory, plus a decent external monitor/keyboard/mouse, you've spent about what the 13" non-Retina Macbook Pro similarly configured costs. Still, it's a nice machine and can be somewhat upgraded.

Oh well, still several options to select from for the foreseeable future.

I see many references to "tell Apple what you think". But how do you do that? Where do you send a message that gets the attention of anyone who can affect Apple's course of actions?
( Try calling Apple for help. You get automated messages that eventually hang up on you. )
Even when Apple responds to major uproars, like SAVE AS, they still did not get it right.
In my opinion, Apple execs have lost their way, making updates that are just to be able to say "we updated our stuff and it's incredible".
End of rant.
Rob