04-20-2012, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Dysfunction

At least with Unix OS's (and Unix-like OS's) you can use lsof to EASILY find the culprit, and kill the application... even as a one-liner

That's pretty cool. I wish I could do that with Windows. Another good reason to switch.

04-20-2012, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Macs aren't really that much more expensive than some Windows boxes; similarly spec'd Windows PC's are in the same price range.

I don't mean to start a dispute here and no offense whatsoever is entended, as I'm definitely on the Apple "side", but I have trouble believing that statement every time I hear it. I currently have a quad core Intel I7 pc running at 3.0 ghz with 12gb of RAM, dual striped Intel SSD's for system drive, a 7200rpm 2TB data drive, and dual 24" monitors. This machine cost under $2,000 and likely several of the components are higher quality than what goes into the Mac. A similarly spec'ed iMac is well over $4,500 (although the displays are nicer). I have never seen a case at any hardware level that a Mac doesn't cost at least twice what the pc does for same hardware. That said, I wouldn't be buying one for the hardware, and the individual hardware components are likely better matched to the OS. I want it for the OS.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Plus, your Mac will almost certainly last longer than a typical "cheaper" PC. I've had my Macbook Pro for four years now and it's as fast and stable as the day I got it. I know for a fact that my old XP desktop was VERY slow after that long.

I don't believe this statement, either. It depends what you mean by "last longer". The hardware is no better than a pc and will not take longer to break down. They use the same components. Does a pc get slower over a couple of years? Yes, most definitely, but that's not the hardware getting slower. That's issues with Windows, the registry, and whatever else gets screwed up on the pc. If you format the drive and re-install Windows, it will be just as fast as the day you bought it. The reason anyone upgrades their computer is because better hardware comes out, and we want the new, cool, faster stuff. It has absolutely nothing to do with how long the computer "lasts". This is actually a big negative (for me) about the Apple computers. I upgrade my pc every year because I want newer and faster, even though my existing one works fine. That will no longer be an option for me with a Mac, unless I can sell my existing one to buy the new one. They aren't very upgradeable.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

So you're getting a computer that holds its value longer ... you don't have to pay for AV software ... you're getting a stabler OS and ... a company that not only makes the OS but the hardware. It all pretty much adds up in favor of a Mac.

Most definitely. I fully agree with these statements.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

So tell THAT to your Windows buddies.

My Windows buddies are pretty smart and don't easily buy into hype or bs. It would be a tough sell for them. What sold me was a) I love my iPhone and iPad, and b) I went to the store and spent an hour playing with an iMac and loved it. For some people, I think they need to see it and use it to understand.

04-20-2012, 08:02 PM

Agree with just about everything you put in that last post, pretty much sums up how i feel

04-21-2012, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Lastmboy

I currently have a quad core Intel I7 pc running at 3.0 ghz with 12gb of RAM, dual striped Intel SSD's for system drive, a 7200rpm 2TB data drive, and dual 24" monitors. This machine cost under $2,000

Great! Where do I plug in my Thunderbolt RAID and my Firewire 800 drives?

Also, did that $2,000 include the cost of a very high-quality, IPS, LED-backlit monitor? And a miniDisplayPort for the second monitor?

Because an iMac would have those things for under $2,000 (one 27" monitor instead of two 24" ones, but I suspect the total resolution would be about the same).

See, this is why Oneironnaut took the time and trouble to say "similarly spec'd." I'm not saying your machine isn't awesome or a good value, but call me when you can give me EVERY. SINGLE. FEATURE (apart from OS X, obviously) that the 27" iMac has for "hundreds" less. And it would need to be MANY hundreds less due to loss of style points.

Even then I won't be interested, because it can't run OS X, of course, but at least we'll be actually be comparing apples to Apples.

04-22-2012, 02:20 AM

EVERY. SINGLE. FEATURE

While we're at it, let's not compare the iMac with a generic PC tower built from off-the-shelf parts. That's not what it is. I could say that any miscellaneous laptop is overpriced because I can build a PC tower with better specs for far less, but it's not exactly a fair comparison, is it? Different form factors, different price points and specs.

Instead, let's compare the iMac with other all-in-one desktops on the market. Only then do you start to get a fair comparison.

I have never seen a case at any hardware level that a Mac doesn't cost at least twice what the pc does for same hardware.

Tell that to the various OEMs who have struggled to put out competitors to the MacBook Air at a price point at or below the $999 price tag of the base 11" model. Sure you can find them, but you'll find that they lack the polish of the Air. For a $100 more, you get a far superior machine in just about every way.

Does a pc get slower over a couple of years? Yes, most definitely, but that's not the hardware getting slower. That's issues with Windows, the registry, and whatever else gets screwed up on the pc. If you format the drive and re-install Windows, it will be just as fast as the day you bought it.

First of all, it should not be expected of any user to regularly re-install the operating system on their computers just to keep it running well. That is madness. Second, even if you never upgrade the operating system you use, applications will eventually require more and more power to run well. That alone can make your machine feel slower over time.

The reason anyone upgrades their computer is because better hardware comes out, and we want the new, cool, faster stuff. It has absolutely nothing to do with how long the computer "lasts".

In my experience normal people hold on to their computers for as long as they possibly can. It's only when these PCs suffer catastrophic failures do they look into replacing the machine completely. So, yes, how long it lasts is a very important factor for a lot of people.

This is actually a big negative (for me) about the Apple computers. I upgrade my pc every year because I want newer and faster, even though my existing one works fine. That will no longer be an option for me with a Mac, unless I can sell my existing one to buy the new one. They aren't very upgradeable.

Let's see how much of a negative this turns out to be a year from now when you realize how much money you'll get for your iMac.

04-22-2012, 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by Lastmboy

I have never seen a case at any hardware level that a Mac doesn't cost at least twice what the pc does for same hardware.

After reading my own post, I think I should clarify...
I was just saying that Macs cost more than PCs. However, I was not saying they aren't worth it. I don't mind spending a more for quality, ingenuity, good service, and less hassle. I'm sold on the iMac. I played with it for a couple of hours and fell in love with it. However, it's still going to cost me a lot more than my PC did. It's also my belief (although I'm no expert) that they are assembled better and the components and software all work well together. That can't be said for most PC's. I love all the thinking that went into the iMacs. I keep coming up with questions, but my Apple rep always has good answers. For example, one thing that has always had me baffled is how the things don't overheat. I have a pc that is 22" high and 10" wide with five 8" fans and a mammoth heat sink with two giant fans on it. Then there's this iMac that makes no noise at all and just sits on your desk. I learned that the alluminum shell is more than just cool looking. It's actually a giant heat sink with the largest dispersion area you could ever have... the full 27" monitor. Too cool! Well, cool enough, at least.

04-22-2012, 05:12 AM

To the OP...

Me, too, I am a long-time professional Windows user... and here is my rant...

As far as cost is concerned, there are many factors to include. Perhaps comparing hardware may not be the most important after all, but more like 'what would I spend in Windows, and what in OSX'.

I purchased an iMac two months ago, a 27" with i5/3.1 GHz processor, 16 GB RAM, and some peripherals and software. All together cost me 2770 Euro (2,770.00 EUR = 3,662.81 US$), including VAT. I do not know what you consider a lot... for me it is a major investment that I hope will serve me a long time.

But what about the alternative? For work, we use HP WorkStations in the office, have about 20 of them, including 24" screens, for CAD development. HP Z600 with decent specs, without graphics card and monitor costs about 2650 US$, Graphics Adapter for CAD: 530 US$. 24" Monitor: 600 US$. Sums up to 3780 US$. And with 19% VAT that is 4500 US$. They are, in my opinion, worth every dime. In 15 years of being responsible for hard- and software being used at engineering departments, Compaq/HP never failed me other that that one graphics card could not withstand a cup of coffee being poured over it.

Could I get a cheaper workstation, or a PC for home use? Yes. Would I be happy using it after using a superior system all day at the office? No. So, just to satisfy myself, I would need to spend 830 USD more on a Z600 then on and iMac based system.

Do I need a 3660 US$ machine at home? Absolutely NOT. My 5 year old HP XW4400 still does the trick as good as it did when I bought it.

My major incentive to get a Mac was to create a difference between office and home environment. The software I use in the office is Windows-based, so.... can't take work home anymore! I am getting older, and more and more worn-out from 30+ years of intense stress in development arena, and I need to be careful if I want to last until retirement.

As far as installation is concerned: I can have a new workstation up and running, including all software (office, CAD, databases, etc) in half a day, of which 60% is un-attended. Half an hour if I can clone it via a ghost image. System stability has not been an issue ever, and when it was, it was user-induced. And user friendliness? Our 20 engineers never asked any Windows-related questions. I have talked far more about OSX in the past two months with a colleague that also owns an iMac. Also had, and am having, quite a few issues with the iMac that I need to resolve. No showstoppers, just minor annoyances...

I do not consider myself a switcher, since I will use both systems, but for different purposes and different reasons. To me, preference for either Apple or Windows is like having a preference for either blondes or brunettes. I honestly do not understand Window-bashing, especially from recent switchers.

All in all, cost is a only one factor, there are far more things to be considered. There are differences in the OS'es, but for me that is not an issue. It quite often is just a matter of finding the solution, and with Mac forums and Google that journey of discovery can be fun. At least, it is for me, since the iMac is not (yet) for work, so I can figure it out at my leisure.

As indicated before in this thread by other, more experienced users: a problem is only something for which you have not yet found the proper solution. And not being aware of a solution might be the reason why some users find 'the other side' problematic, and become biased.

Ah well..... only you can make a decision if it is all worth the 'trouble' and money. I made a decision for my reasons, you make a decision for yours, and I hope my rant here may be of some help to you I'm making a satisfying decision.

Regards,

Thymen

04-22-2012, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by chas_m

Great! Where do I plug in my Thunderbolt RAID and my Firewire 800 drives?

You don't need to. You can fit a bunch of drives in the pc case and have them all directly connected. I'm just kidding. Your point is well taken. I really want one of those 12TB Promise Pegasus units, but holy !#$@ what a price tag!

Originally Posted by chas_m

Also, did that $2,000 include the cost of a very high-quality, IPS, LED-backlit monitor? And a miniDisplayPort for the second monitor?

No it didn't. I love that IPS display, even if it is a bit overpriced.

Originally Posted by chas_m

Because an iMac would have those things for under $2,000

I can't argue, nor would I want to, that a Mac isn't a good value and a great machine, and it definitely beats all in style. It just seems like Apple uses the hype to price gouge a bit. I don't know what exactly they put into every box, but I know how much they charge for upgrades. It's a bit misleading. The under $2,000 iMac is a bit behind the times, and pretty much begs to be upgraded right away. CPU upgrade to I7 is around $400. Memory upgrade is $210 for 4gb, a whopping $630 to upgrade to 16gb... I can get the whole 16gb at OWC for $99 and throw the initial 4gb away. Hard drive upgrade from 1tb to 2tb is $150. Hard drives have gone up a bit, but I bought a 3tb one for less than that. 2tb drives are generally less than $100. From what I've been told, Apple does not make any of these items themselves. They contract out to the lowest bidder. Again, I don't mind paying a bit more, and I'll likely be convinced to pay a lot more. They just seem to get a wee bit carried away. However, like both of us have stated now, it's worth it just to be able to run OSX.

Originally Posted by J.Fo

While we're at it, let's not compare the iMac with a generic PC tower built from off-the-shelf parts. That's not what it is. I could say that any miscellaneous laptop is overpriced because I can build a PC tower with better specs for far less, but it's not exactly a fair comparison, is it? Different form factors, different price points and specs.

... and I'm hoping that is the case (that it's that much better). I'm just not sure which components Apple actually makes and which ones they contract out on and take the lowest bid.

Originally Posted by J.Fo

First of all, it should not be expected of any user to regularly re-install the operating system on their computers just to keep it running well. That is madness.

I agree!! No argument. One of the reasons I'm switching. Re-installing everything from scratch once a year is a pita. Still... it wasn't the hardware's fault.

Originally Posted by J.Fo

Let's see how much of a negative this turns out to be a year from now when you realize how much money you'll get for your iMac.

I sure hope you're right. I'm looking at coughing up $4,500 for a decked out iMac that I can't upgrade (much). I'm making the larger investment partly because I just love the way it looks and works, but partly because I'm hoping it will last me several years. I normally upgrade my pc every one to two years... and after thinking about it, you're right. The time I choose to upgrade is usually when I have a major crash and it's just not worth the time to try to get it working again.

You guys make good arguments, and you don't need to convince me, as I'm already sold. I just struggle with the "it doesn't cost any more" comment. Even the Apple rep I spoke with said "Yes, it costs about twice as much as a pc with the same processor, ram, and storage, but why do you drive a BMW and not a Chev? Your BMW cost a lot more." THAT, to me, made a lot more sense than "It doesn't cost any more".

I like gathering all these good points to pass on to all my friends that need to be switching. I have a recording studio, which is basically just a hobby, but I was scouring the forums to see if the audio/recording software, which tends to be very demanding, would generally run more stable on a Mac. I read one comment that really stuck. Everyone was doing the "it costs so much more" thing (which I guess I'm guilty of, now). However, one Mac user asked if their "time" was worth anything, and how much time they had lost in re-boots, hangs, crashes, configuration, etc. over the last week. Most would say several hours (as would I). Then it hit me... this expensive, but very cool machine would likely pay for itself in recovered time within the first month.

** sorry if I offended any Chev owners.

04-22-2012, 02:09 PM

Lastmboy,

First of all, $4,500? What the heck are you putting in this thing? I tried configuring the top-end iMac on Apple's website and couldn't come anywhere close to that figure with internal upgrades. You're not buying the RAM from Apple, are you? You easily upgrade that on your own for far cheaper.

Also, no one here is disputing that you think the Mac is a good value for your money. Clearly, that's not the case. We just think that your claims that they are vastly more expensive are just plain wrong. Again, put together a comparably priced system, and you'll find that Macs are not that much more expensive than their Windows counterparts.

04-22-2012, 02:54 PM

Also, lastmboy, as you pointed out -- Mac owners tend to think in terms of value, which incorporates intangibles like the worth of one's time, whereas PC people (to a fault) tend to think strictly in terms of price.

To give you an example: I recently needed to move up to a MacBook Pro for various reasons. I wanted to wait for the next generation, but I couldn't. So I bought a used one (mid-2009) for 500 bucks to tide me over for perhaps a year or so. I swapped the hard drives, and picked right up.

I made back the money I spent on that unit in two days, plus I am delighted with the more powerful graphics card, higher RAM than my old machine was capable of, and overall faster performance.

Maybe that's possible on the PC, but I've never seen it happen.

04-22-2012, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by chas_m

call me when you can give me EVERY. SINGLE. FEATURE (apart from OS X, obviously) that the 27" iMac has for "hundreds" less.

Not to argue, but just to educate me (and I always like learning), can you identify some of these features that don't exist on a pc? I am interested. I know we're not really comparing apples to apples (no pun intended), but I'm interested to know the good points about the Mac. Let's say specific to iMac for now.

Here are the ones I came up with off the top of my head:

Pros for iMac:

• style
• cool aluminum case that doubles as heatsink
• awesome 27" IPS display with magnetic glass
• digital audio out
• thunderbolt (limited usefulness so far, as no devices that can really exploit it, but still cool)
• built in bluetooth
• small footprint
• OSX
• Magic Trackpad (and gestures in general)
• build quality
• Applecare

Pros for PC:

• "Manliness" see My PC
• internal bluray burner and/or multiple optical drives
• eSata ports
• Larger power supply
• More cooling options
• front facing USB/eSata/Firewire/audio ports
• 5.1 audio out

The same on both:

• CPU
• hard drive(s)
• RAM
• RAM easily expandible
• Multiple USB ports
• firewire port
• networking
• ?? motherboard ?? ( I don't know what's in an iMac or who makes it)
• support for multiple monitors
• expandable with external devices

04-22-2012, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by J.Fo

Lastmboy,

First of all, $4,500? What the heck are you putting in this thing? I tried configuring the top-end iMac on Apple's website and couldn't come anywhere close to that figure with internal upgrades. You're not buying the RAM from Apple, are you? You easily upgrade that on your own for far cheaper.

The second 27" display is what makes my quote way up there, but I can't go back to one monitor, even if it is big. Here is my Apple Store shopping cart, without upgraded RAM and without any of the "accessories" I would add:
Apple Store Cart
I would upgrade the RAM to 16gb with the OWC $99 kit.

04-23-2012, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by Lastmboy

Not to argue, but just to educate me (and I always like learning), can you identify some of these features that don't exist on a pc?

1. Apple engineering.

People SERIOUSLY undervalue this, but it takes MEGABRAINS to come up with (for example) the way the iMac draws in cool air from the bottom and uses convection cooling (aka "heat rises") to pass that air out the top back vent so as to minimize fan use. The way the speakers bounce the sound off your desk (in the iMac) is another example. A lot of thought went into little things like that which most of us barely notice. I am just scratching the surface here but the engineering that goes into Mac products ROUTINELY revolutionises the entire PC industry a few years later. Look at what the MacBook Air and the iPad did to those awful, plastic, junky netbooks everyone was using two years ago.

As Steve himself once said, "design" is not how the case looks. Design is how it works. PC makers for a very long time (and most of them still) think/thought "design" was how to make the box less ugly. I still find my breath taken away at how ugly, hot and LOUD most PCs are. I have many, many more examples across the years but let's leave it at that.

2. Apple software engineering. This is where OS X comes in, which of course directly ties into the hardware, but I'm also talking about the other software Apple provides on a typical machine. From TextEdit to iMovie, you just DO NOT find that quality of software out-of-the-box on a Windows machine. And that's before you get into Apple's paid software, or the syncing of iCloud (free), or the utter delight and disruptive power of iOS.

3. The entire Apple experience. Jonny Ive and others have talked extensively about how much time Apple spends on just the BOX the product comes in. The incredibly smooth Migration Assistant and registration/getting online setup. The remarkably clear, concise, video-oriented tutorials on Apple's web site. The lack of talking to you like you are an idiot or a pirate. Software Update. The Applecare and warranty experience for most customers. The stores and the 1on1 sessions and the free classes. NO ADS IN ICLOUD. The executives that write you back when you ask a question (!!!). And a hundred other little things.

This is a company that deeply, DEEPLY cares that you're getting a good experience out of using their products, and takes enormous pride in what they make. You can feel it in everything they do. "White box PC is good enough fer ME!" Windows/Linux type people make me sad; they are like the people who ask "what's the point of the arts?"

In short, you're not just buying a box. You are buying into the company, the way DeLorean drivers did and Lamberghini drivers do. The company doesn't "go away" the moment they have your cash.

Pros for iMac:

• awesome 27" IPS display with magnetic glass
• digital [optical] audio out
• thunderbolt (limited usefulness so far, as no devices that can really exploit it, but still cool)
• built in bluetooth
• small footprint
• Magic Trackpad (and gestures in general)
• build quality
• Applecare

As you've probably noticed, that 27" IPS display costs around $1K on its own (not just from Apple, either -- it's not much cheaper anywhere else except for special sales). That's a huge factor IMO.

As you point out in the (edited) list above, TB has ENORMOUS potential and pro video people are already pretty excited about it. This year's NAB might was well have been called ThunderFest. The new BT 4.0 is going to make a HUGE impact on portable devices over the next few years. The sound card in iMacs is exceptional compared to the norm. Etc.

Pros for PC:

• internal bluray burner and/or multiple optical drives
• eSata ports
• Larger power supply
• More cooling options
• front facing USB/eSata/Firewire/audio ports
• 5.1 audio out

I don't see "larger power supply" and "more cooling options" as Pros at all. PCs need a larger power supply because they are less efficient, which in turns leads to the NEED for more (and louder) cooling options. Those two items are definitely "cons" in my book, along with the constant and ceaseless over-commercialization of everything in Windows-world. Everything has to have an ad. An animated ad. That you can't turn the sound off. It's like a clown car most of the time, and to have that crap ON YOUR MACHINE the moment you take it out of the box ... maybe I'm too picky, but I like to focus, and Windows and most PCs never let me do that (hardware AND software).

Apart from that, I do grant you most of the items on the list above ARE genuine PC advantages (I don't personally think much of Blu-Ray BUT I recognise that many consumers do).

The same on both:

• firewire port
• ?? motherboard ?? ( I don't know what's in an iMac or who makes it)

I've never seen a Windows PC that *came* with Firewire, which I've always thought bizarre as some of them were quite specifically geared to video production where FW has always been king until recently. I am pleased to see that PCs coming soon will likely do for Thunderbolt what the iMac did for USB back in the day, but I'm sure consumers will stick with USB 2 and eventually USB 3 and that's fine.

As for the motherboard, Apple designs its own custom motherboards. See point #1.

04-23-2012, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Wow, I remember the days of having to deal with all that stuff.

This was exactly my reaction. Shudder.

Maintenance on my iMac is a breeze compared to my prior Windows computers.

The main problem I have on my Mac now is Windows, which I am running in Parallels: it updates so often that I have to remember to reboot it every few days, otherwise it blue screens inside the virtual machine and then I have to reboot it anyway. Always happens after Windows does an automated update, which seems to be weekly. But that only affects the few Windows programs I use. The Mac side ignores what's going on in the Windows side.

Mac OS does spin up my external hard drives from time to time. I have been poking away at that. got them excluded from Spotlight now.

I don't often have to simultaneously copy multiple files from one place to another, but when I do I don't notice a performance hit, and I like the native Mac progress Window that pops up. Then again, I'm not running programs that drive my iMac hard.

I don't play with programs that require special sandboxing so cannot comment.

04-23-2012, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by chas_m

1. Apple engineering.

People SERIOUSLY undervalue this,

Thanks for taking the time to respond in detail. It was a great reply. Being a Windows programmer, I have lots of Windows programmer friends and co-workers. They all want to know why in the world I would want a Mac. I find it really hard to explain, because it's more of a general "feeling" than anything really specific. My sister has a MBP, so I thought I would sit down and just play with the thing a bit. Having never touched one before it was quite interesting. I discovered it to be a lot like my iPad, in that everything just made sense, responded quickly, and worked so smoothly. I hate the touchpad on any pc laptop and will never touch it. They're useless. However, I found the MPB touchpad worked so well I could see myself using it instead of a mouse. I then stopped in at the store and played with an iMac for a while. Same great feeling... only bigger. The only thing that bothered me was the tracking speed of the magic mouse. I set the speed to max, and it was still painfully slow. There are alternatives to that, though. Anyways, I couldn't pinpoint any one thing about it, but I just loved how the machine and OS worked. I've never had that happen with a pc. My "super pc" is very fast for the most part. It boots up very quickly and generally opens apps quickly, but it's so unpredictable (see some of my issues at the beginning of this thread).

I've been checking everything out in detail and can't find anything I would miss in switching, except for QuickBooks Pro and my scanner. I have a Canan DR-2580c high speed document scanner that I love. I throw everything in it, push the button on it, and then find all the PDFs sitting in a folder. However, Canon isn't much for making OSX device drivers. This should probably be in a different thread, but if I ran Parallels or VMware Fusion, can I leave a virtual instance running that would recognize the usb scanner when I push the button on the scanner, or am I stuck with re-booting through bootcamp? It will be a bit of a pain to re-boot every time I want to scan a document.