01-02-2012, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Lord Elrond

Some of those comments have suggested glitches causing slow downs, crashes etc. with lion. Clearly it seems most were thrilled with snow leopard.

I'm one of those but one thing to remember is that I have an almost four year old Mac (as does chscag who made a similar comment). I have little doubt that OS X as a whole runs better on a 2011 Mac.

01-02-2012, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Lord Elrond

Ok no bs here. What I'm reading about lion is worrying me. It's still not too late for me to cancel my iMac order so I'm wondering if I should do that or not?

Don't cancel it. I have an entry level iMac out of the current lineup. When I bought it, it ran Snow Leopard. I upgraded to Lion the day it was released and have been running it ever since. I can tell you that Lion runs great on my machine. I never think to myself, "****, this thing is slow. I wish I had Snow Leopard back." That was even true when I only had 4GB installed on it. (I have 16GB in it now.)

The autosave feature seems like it would be very useful. However, I find it very annoying because it made saving documents a lot more complicated. There is no longer a "save as" function and you instead either have to export it as something or save a version which does not allow you to change the document's name - very frustrating.

Here's what I suggest you do. Before you make any changes to the document, duplicate it and then save. Then you can rename your file and keep the original as is.

This has tripped me up a few times already because it's backwards from how it used to work. In the old days, you could open a file, make changes to it, and as long as you didn't click Save, the changes wouldn't stick. Once you were done modifying the document, you could just click Save As, rename the file and the original would not be touched.

With AutoSave, that's no longer the case, because the system is automatically saving the changes you make regardless of whether you tell it to or not. So, if you open something like a template for a letter and make changes, the system will save the changes to the original file. Hence the need to duplicate it first.

It's not really any more complicated than how it used to work; it's just different. It requires a slight rethinking of your workflow to make use of a new feature (AutoSave) effectively.

The reopen feature is also annoying. Whenever you open up pages or an app it comes up with what you had open last time. It also opens up windows when you shut down your computer and always asks you if you want to reopen the windows when you restart. I can't really say anything bad for this feature except that it really irritates me.

The reopen feature is one that I've had some difficulty getting used to. On the one hand, it's great in iOS, where I never really think about shutting down applications. I may switch to a different app, and eventually come back to the one I was using before, in which case I want to pick up where I left off. On a Mac application though, that's not always the case. I am conscious of quitting applications there, and when I do, in my mind, I'm also closing the window so that it doesn't appear again the next time I open the app. It's annoying for some reason to see spreadsheet I was done working with appear when I open Numbers simply because I didn't close the window before I quit.

The Resume feature is one that I do appreciate though. It is nice to be able to restart my Mac should the need arise, and not have to worry about reopening all the applications I had running. I like the idea of picking up exactly where I left off. The only annoying part about this is that it can take longer to get my machine up and running again while I wait for all those apps to load. This, I think, is a case where the hardware is the limiting factor. Someday, when all of our Macs come with solid state hard drives as a standard feature, and all our apps can open in a fraction of a second, I think many of us will be less annoyed by this feature.

01-02-2012, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Discerptor

At face value, these two statements would appear to contradict each other. No one is arguing that Lion isn't fine for light usage (unless you have less than 4GB of RAM and no SSD), but its performance is horrid for power users, particularly those with workflows that involve serious multitasking. The fact Mission Control is a train wreck compared to Exposé exacerbates the frustration for said users.

I think you may be misunderstanding what I said.

I keep multiple apps open ALL THE TIME. Right now as I'm typing this to you I have Photoshop, iChat, TextEdit, Mail, Safari, and an FTP app and GMail client open simultaneously. Safari has multiple tabs open, and I have multiple chats going as well. Photoshop has multiple documents in progress.

So I amend my statement to say I *rarely* have multiple windows open in the same app rather than never, but except for Photoshop and occasionally InDesign I don't ever tend to need multiple windows within the same app open (mostly because of this thing called tabs).

You sound like you're implying that Lion is unsuitable for "power users." Mister, I'm here to tell you I'm a power user. I do all kinds of stuff on this 2007 machine with 3GB of RAM, including video editing, Adobe CS stuff and other heavy-duty apps at least some of my day. It all works so well, in fact, that I've been unable to justify swapping out this ancient Macbook (not even a Pro!) for something newer, though I'm determined to do so this year anyway.

The only time this old machine lets me down is if I'm doing something that really taxes the video chipset (like Google Earth). It works, but not as well as it should. HD video editing is also pretty much out, but this machine wasn't even top of the line in 2007 so on the whole I feel it has served me very well (and it plays 720p video just fine, thanks!).

A quick check of Activity Monitor shows kernel_task at almost identically the same levels as it was at yesterday when I posted: 266.3 of real mem, 12.9 virtual. I have 83MB free and 686.2MB inactive RAM. 1GB in page outs over the course of the day (I've been on the machine about six hours now).

I use Spaces a lot and Expose very little so I'm not taking issue with your complaints about Expose, but your comments about Lion generally are, IME, off the mark. The idea that Lion isn't suitable for "power users" is just plain laughable.

01-02-2012, 10:55 PM

I was nearly turned off getting a 2011 iMac due to the myriad of bad reports about Lion. As they came preinstalled with Lion I considered getting a 2010 model just to avoid what was being described by some as Apple's Vista.

As it happens, I like Lion - though it probably helps that I have never used Snow Leopard, Tiger, etc and have nothing to compare it against. It will be the same when I get FCPX, which some hate compared to the previous version.

What I have noticed is that when I go on a Windows machine at work, I find myself swiping the mouse and wondering why the text isn't moving.

Lion is intuitive for Mac virgins and I suspect that's the whole point of it.

01-02-2012, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Lord Elrond

Clearly it seems most were thrilled with snow leopard.

LOL! Oh, how the memory cheats!!

Most of the people who now seem like they are/were "thrilled" with Snow Leopard were the exact SAME people gnashing their teeth and condemning Apple to the skies a couple of years ago. Oh you should have been there! Special web sites (by the dozens!) with compatibility charts and forums filled with fearful faithful! Half the base thought Apple had lost their minds dropping Gx compatibility and the other half thought the idea of charging for a new version with "no new features" was sheer MADNESS that would see Apple lose all its marketshare.

There was MUCH wailing about app compatibility (LOTS of older stuff "broke" under Snow Leopard) and cursing about the dropping of G5s and older. The new features in Snow Leopard were MUCH reviled (at first) and it was Leopard's turn to be the "it ain't broke why fix it" poster boy!

This same Greek tragedy is re-performed every time Apple does the very thing we admire most about them (in retrospect, it would seem) -- push the industry forward by daring to throw out the old. Man I remember when the iMac came out with no legacy ports at all, you should have heard the howling!!

In short, the Mac community is a friendly place with great people, but we're also terrible hypocrites with VERY selective memories and rather picky about stuff as well. For users that have embraced the very ESSENCE of change by picking the "non-standard" platform in the first place, we sure do get cranky when Apple changes stuff ... as a user since the mid-80s I'm just endlessly amused by the occasional hysteria of Mac users ... remind me to tell you about iMovie '08 User Revolt sometime ...

01-02-2012, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by chas_m

I think you may be misunderstanding what I said.

I keep multiple apps open ALL THE TIME. Right now as I'm typing this to you I have Photoshop, iChat, TextEdit, Mail, Safari, and an FTP app and GMail client open simultaneously. Safari has multiple tabs open, and I have multiple chats going as well. Photoshop has multiple documents in progress.

So I amend my statement to say I *rarely* have multiple windows open in the same app rather than never, but except for Photoshop and occasionally InDesign I don't ever tend to need multiple windows within the same app open (mostly because of this thing called tabs).

You sound like you're implying that Lion is unsuitable for "power users." Mister, I'm here to tell you I'm a power user. I do all kinds of stuff on this 2007 machine with 3GB of RAM, including video editing, Adobe CS stuff and other heavy-duty apps at least some of my day. It all works so well, in fact, that I've been unable to justify swapping out this ancient Macbook (not even a Pro!) for something newer, though I'm determined to do so this year anyway.

The only time this old machine lets me down is if I'm doing something that really taxes the video chipset (like Google Earth). It works, but not as well as it should. HD video editing is also pretty much out, but this machine wasn't even top of the line in 2007 so on the whole I feel it has served me very well (and it plays 720p video just fine, thanks!).

A quick check of Activity Monitor shows kernel_task at almost identically the same levels as it was at yesterday when I posted: 266.3 of real mem, 12.9 virtual. I have 83MB free and 686.2MB inactive RAM. 1GB in page outs over the course of the day (I've been on the machine about six hours now).

I use Spaces a lot and Expose very little so I'm not taking issue with your complaints about Expose, but your comments about Lion generally are, IME, off the mark. The idea that Lion isn't suitable for "power users" is just plain laughable.

About the memory management: The reason kernel task is only sitting at or around 200-300 MB is because you have 3 gigs of RAM. Were you to have 4 gigs, it would sit at around 400+. 6 gigs, 600 MB+ and so on. So you can see how that would go if you had 8 gigs. You'd be losing a gig or so, leaving you with 7 to play with, which might seem excessive (in the loss dept).

As far as Spaces and Exposé go, the current methodology of the latter is different from how it was in SL, which I guess isn't such a big deal if we take into consideration that Mission Control is simply replacing it. So we're not really disagreeing here, it's just a matter of rewiring ones thinking to get used to it.

The current incarnation of Expose then, should actually work well, if used properly. As an example, working in PS or In Design etc, having multiple projects open. I too only use tabs in a browser, so it was only a point I was trying to make, though likely moot now.

Like I said, I'm going to try and give Lion a fair shake, and re-wire my brain a bit and see what happens. And for the record, I already knew about the restore check box, and have always had it unchecked.

Another "for the record": Lion is plenty fast on my late 2008 MBP with 4 gigs of RAM. No complaints in that department.

I do wish though, that we could customize the gestures even further. I really miss the 4 finger tap/swipe to the app gesture.

Doug

01-03-2012, 12:04 AM

I got the chance to use Lion for the first time in my school's Library a few days ago, and I have to say, it's the first Mac OS X release that I wasn't immediately impressed by. It feels...unnatural to me. The scrolling was reversed (and unable to change due to the school locking the settings) I disliked the "Gray theme" it seemed to be having. Launch Pad looked really similar to iOS, which I suppose was intended. But not something I would prefer.

I'm not sure how to explain it really, all I know is that it didn't seem up to par with the previous Apple Mac OS's.

Take a look at the change from OS 10.4 to 10.5. MAJOR changes right? It really brought OS X into what it looks like today. 10.6 wasn't a huge step forward in the looks department, but the drop of PowerPC made it a huge revolution "under the hood" and was noticeably faster than Leopard.

Now, Lion. Some notice slowdown, others notice a slight increase in speed. Rosetta was dropped, which I wouldn't exactly consider a pro. It still looks extremely similar to OS 10.5 & 10.6. Apple seemed to really have screwed over Expose, with this "Mission Control" causing some people to totally despise the OS as a whole.

I'm on the fence about it, and that itself is a bad thing in my eyes. I should love the way things are going with a new OS, there should be improvements, things should move faster, work better, bugs should ironed out, and you should be able to get your work done quicker and more efficiently. I just don't see that happening with Lion.

01-03-2012, 12:29 AM

Remember MD, you can turn off all those changes except the Expose/Spaces thing some are upset about.

A couple of posts here are causing people who come to Mac forums not to want a new Mac. That bugs me in a way as many will see some of this and go buy a Windows 7 and later 8 PC due to all the negative comments. Lion is FAR from bad. Just a few changes that has old time Mac people who like the old way better, upset.

01-03-2012, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by dtravis7

Remember MD, you can turn off all those changes except the Expose/Spaces thing some are upset about.

A couple of posts here are causing people who come to Mac forums not to want a new Mac. That bugs me in a way as many will see some of this and go buy a Windows 7 and later 8 PC due to all the negative comments. Lion is FAR from bad. Just a few changes that has old time Mac people who like the old way better, upset.

Oh of course, Lion isn't "bad". It just failed to have some improvements that I expected it to, and some changes that I didn't particularly favor.

Lion is still FAR better than any Windows OS ever released. There's no doubt about that.

01-03-2012, 01:01 AM

I'm finding that by using "Better Touch Tool", my trackpad experience is back to where it was in SL and then some. I think I can easily adjust to the way Mission Control has taken the place of the old Exposé, but I still prefer the way I was able to see every single app, in every single space all at the same time, vs the way you can only really see a tiny bit of what is open in every virtual desktop in Lion.

But this is also why I like the tap to switch apps gesture. All I have to do is tap on the trackpad with 4 fingers and the cmd/tab list comes up. Then I just tap to the app I want open. This is faster than using MC or swiping to another desktop with 4 fingers or any other method I've tried.

People definitely should't be turned off by Lion, it's a great OS once you update to 10.7.2. I'll post back from time to time after I've given PS, Aperture and Lightroom a whirl. Need to see how speedy things are in that dept vs with SL.


Doug

01-03-2012, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by chas_m

I think you may be misunderstanding what I said.

I keep multiple apps open ALL THE TIME. Right now as I'm typing this to you I have Photoshop, iChat, TextEdit, Mail, Safari, and an FTP app and GMail client open simultaneously. Safari has multiple tabs open, and I have multiple chats going as well. Photoshop has multiple documents in progress.

So I amend my statement to say I *rarely* have multiple windows open in the same app rather than never, but except for Photoshop and occasionally InDesign I don't ever tend to need multiple windows within the same app open (mostly because of this thing called tabs).

Funny, I remember referring precisely to Photoshop and InDesign when discussing the shortcomings of Mission Control. There are a number of applications that either don't support tabs or are best used with multiple windows, and these don't lend themselves well to Mission Control.

You sound like you're implying that Lion is unsuitable for "power users." Mister, I'm here to tell you I'm a power user. I do all kinds of stuff on this 2007 machine with 3GB of RAM, including video editing, Adobe CS stuff and other heavy-duty apps at least some of my day. It all works so well, in fact, that I've been unable to justify swapping out this ancient Macbook (not even a Pro!) for something newer, though I'm determined to do so this year anyway.

I only referenced its unsuitable performance on machines with 2GB of RAM, which is bad specifically since Apple still ships machines with 2GB of RAM. Adding more is necessary for even light multitasking, and you have more than that. You're actually supporting my assertion.

The only time this old machine lets me down is if I'm doing something that really taxes the video chipset (like Google Earth). It works, but not as well as it should. HD video editing is also pretty much out, but this machine wasn't even top of the line in 2007 so on the whole I feel it has served me very well (and it plays 720p video just fine, thanks!).

If you're boasting about 720p playback and having trouble with Google Earth, your standards are about 6 years behind the curve. I wouldn't take this as a positive for Lion.

I use Spaces a lot and Expose very little so I'm not taking issue with your complaints about Expose, but your comments about Lion generally are, IME, off the mark. The idea that Lion isn't suitable for "power users" is just plain laughable.

I never said Lion was unsuitable for power users. I said it was unsuitable for people that do heavy multitasking and that it required more RAM than Snow Leopard did to perform acceptably. There is a marked difference. I suppose I could have been more specific and thrown in the implied "It's unsuitable for people with workflows that actually leveraged Exposé," but I thought my heavy focus on what a poor replacement Mission Control is covered that.

Originally Posted by chas_m

LOL! Oh, how the memory cheats!!

Most of the people who now seem like they are/were "thrilled" with Snow Leopard were the exact SAME people gnashing their teeth and condemning Apple to the skies a couple of years ago. Oh you should have been there! Special web sites (by the dozens!) with compatibility charts and forums filled with fearful faithful! Half the base thought Apple had lost their minds dropping Gx compatibility and the other half thought the idea of charging for a new version with "no new features" was sheer MADNESS that would see Apple lose all its marketshare.

There was MUCH wailing about app compatibility (LOTS of older stuff "broke" under Snow Leopard) and cursing about the dropping of G5s and older. The new features in Snow Leopard were MUCH reviled (at first) and it was Leopard's turn to be the "it ain't broke why fix it" poster boy!

What do you call FUD when it's about a group of people the poster is trying to feel superior to? I never had any such "new feature" complaints about Snow Leopard, and I don't know anyone that did. My only complaint about Snow Leopard from the start was that Apple was charging for something that should have been a free upgrade to the bloated Leopard. I might have been a bit annoyed about PowerPC support being dropped too, but it wasn't a big deal for me at that point anyway since I had traded up. The main issue with Lion isn't a compatibility chart or shiny gimmicks - it's the removal of useful features, which is a first for OS X. The resource inefficiency and bugs that persist two major updates later are an added bonus.

This same Greek tragedy is re-performed every time Apple does the very thing we admire most about them (in retrospect, it would seem) -- push the industry forward by daring to throw out the old. Man I remember when the iMac came out with no legacy ports at all, you should have heard the howling!!

In short, the Mac community is a friendly place with great people, but we're also terrible hypocrites with VERY selective memories and rather picky about stuff as well. For users that have embraced the very ESSENCE of change by picking the "non-standard" platform in the first place, we sure do get cranky when Apple changes stuff ... as a user since the mid-80s I'm just endlessly amused by the occasional hysteria of Mac users ... remind me to tell you about iMovie '08 User Revolt sometime ...

Accusing all criticism of Apple as the work of Luddites is rather closed-minded. I'm open to Exposé being enhanced or even replaced with something better - I just didn't want it replaced with something that has less functionality and requires more clicks and swipes to do the things it can do.

I'm open to new takes on the fullscreen idea that get around it "covering up" a bunch of windows - I didn't want multi-monitor fullscreen support to be killed off in the process.

The iMovie '08 "revolt" was justified even by Apple's tacit admission, since they made iMovie 6 HD available as a free download until all the features they had removed were put back into later versions of iMovie. The Final Cut Pro X "revolt" happening right now is even more justified, since Apple is essentially forcing professional video editors to go through the costly process of switching to another software solution.

Apple's products are not exempt from criticism just because some of their actions push the industry forward. Spotlight doesn't justify Apple having the gall to charge people for .mac/MobileMe as an example. To close your eyes to all faults in their products and services is tantamount to encouraging Apple to not change and improve them, which would be terrible. I'm not asking for Exposé back: I just want Mission Control, and indeed Lion itself, to be molded into worthy successors.

Originally Posted by Lord Elrond

I'm one of those folks who read the comments section more than an article purporting to praise or decry something.

Some of those comments have suggested glitches causing slow downs, crashes etc. with lion. Clearly it seems most were thrilled with snow leopard.

It reminds me of when Millenium edition of windows came out and it sucked. Then they released XP which was extremely stable. Then Vista came out and sucked.

I'm thinking I might be ok because I've never had a Mac before so I'm getting used to an entirely new system but the main reason I'm switching is because of Mac's rep for stability and reliability.

It's a big investment and I don't want to regret it.

As harsh as I may seem with my criticisms of Lion, I would never compare Lion to Windows Millennium Edition. For all its faults, OS X Lion is still better at window management than Windows 7 by a huge margin. And even though there are some bugs in a few of Lion's bundled apps, Windows doesn't even come with bundled programs that I deem acceptable to use over any alternatives to begin with. And if Apple continues as it's been doing for the last two OS X releases, 10.8 will probably only be $29 when it comes out anyway. Trust me: most of the criticisms of Lion I've made in this thread wouldn't be there if I were coming in brand new without any prior OS X experience. I just hold Apple to a higher standard than I do Microsoft because I know from experience that they can do better than this.

01-03-2012, 12:20 PM

If you're boasting about 720p playback and having trouble with Google Earth, your standards are about 6 years behind the curve. I wouldn't take this as a positive for Lion.

Remember, not everyone can afford a brand new Mac every day! I was lucky to get a used Macbook with 4GB RAM and love it.

And like I said, I am a multitasking freak. Have been since the Amiga (The finest Multitasking computer for many years) and am very demanding that way, and I see no multitasking issues with Lion using 4GB here on my iMac.

01-03-2012, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by dtravis7

And like I said, I am a multitasking freak. Have been since the Amiga (The finest Multitasking computer for many years) and am very demanding that way, and I see no multitasking issues with Lion using 4GB here on my iMac.

Same here. Running "basic" apps isn't an issue but I can see how it becomes a problem with some more demanding apps. That, however, is not a Lion issue and is more a hardware issue. I'm sure you've seen it on your hardware as well Dennis (which is very similar to mine) when you get a few larger apps going. While I don't run many, I do run VMs and when those are doing something the lest bit demanding, OS X becomes sluggish. Again though, that's not so much Lion as it is four year old hardware that I'm pushing.

01-03-2012, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by vansmith

Same here. Running "basic" apps isn't an issue but I can see how it becomes a problem with some more demanding apps. That, however, is not a Lion issue and is more a hardware issue. I'm sure you've seen it on your hardware as well Dennis (which is very similar to mine) when you get a few larger apps going. While I don't run many, I do run VMs and when those are doing something the lest bit demanding, OS X becomes sluggish. Again though, that's not so much Lion as it is four year old hardware that I'm pushing.

Agreed. When I boot into Snow Leopard on the same iMac, I don't see any difference. The multitasking on Lion or SL for that matter is a lot better to me than Windows running on quite powerful hardware here. That is one thing that drew me to OSX. The Multitasking.

01-03-2012, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by dtravis7

Agreed. When I boot into Snow Leopard on the same iMac, I don't see any difference. The multitasking on Lion or SL for that matter is a lot better to me than Windows running on quite powerful hardware here. That is one thing that drew me to OSX. The Multitasking.

Windows XP's dismal RAM and window management basically pushed me to OS X when I saw the wonders of Exposé and UNIX-managed memory in one package. Even Windows 7 isn't up to the standards of OS X 10.3 when it comes to multitasking. That's why it pains me so to see Lion take steps backwards in that area, to be honest.