04-01-2012, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

So, let's see. There are a handful of Trojan Horses for the Mac, and maybe three or four new Trojan Horses every year, all of which probably none of us will ever see even if we go looking for them:
Thomas' Corner : Mac Malware Guide

Yet for Windows there are over a *MILLION* viruses:
BBC NEWS | Technology | Computer viruses hit one million

Sophos says that there are as many as 95,000 new threats for Windows *every single day*!!!
2011 Security Threat Report | Sophos Security Topics

And you're telling me that there is a significant amount of Mac malware and we have to be afraid that it is increasing?

Sorry, that sounds like pure FUD to me. It sounds like the same garbage that we have been hearing from Windows bigots and the sensationalistic press for a decade. I think that spreading that type of FUD is a disservice to all of the ordinary Mac users on this discussion list who don't know better.

Randy, please don't put words in my mouth. As I said, I agree overall with your standpoint, but I can also understand that of what you characterize as "Windows bigots". I was simply stating that your tone and accusations were uncalled for and inappropriate. If you want to disagree with someone, you can do so without the name calling and mud-slinging. Frankly, I find it to be unbecoming and overly defensive. It needs to stop now.

04-01-2012, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by ZeroTX

Anyway, the hidden malware protection within the OS doesn't mean impervious to malware,

I don't believe anyone said that the Mac is "impervious" or "invulnerable" to malware. That's the reason that I thought that you were a troll. You are putting words into people's mouths. Quite clearly it isn't, as there has been, and currently exists, malware for the Macintosh.

The thing is, what does exist is quite limited. No actual "viruses," and only a handful of Trojan Horses that can be easily avoided without the need for anti-virus software.

Originally Posted by ZeroTX

... her Mac will be loaded with anti-virus/anti-malware above and beyond that which Apple installs masked within the OS.

Here is an excellent up to date Web site on the topic of Macintosh malware that you might find illuminating:
Thomas' Corner : Mac Malware Guide

A slightly dated, but still relevant article:
Mac OS X anti-virus software: More trouble than it's worth? | MacFixIt
Mac OS X anti-virus software: More trouble than it's worth? | MacFixIt - CNET Reviews

Most AV software will slow down your Mac and it may cause software conflicts. Before you decide to install AV software on your Mac, you should ask the question: What are you trying to protect yourself from? Is anyone being infected with Mac malware? Is there a big threat out there right now?

I can tell you that there isn't. See:
Thomas' Corner : Mac Malware Guide

The biggest threat is Flashback, and you can easily protect yourself from that by updating to the latest version of Java, and for good measure turning Java (*not* JavaScript, which despite the name is something entirely different) off in your browser.

There is a very new Trojan that infects Microsoft Office, but Microsoft released a security update that will protect you from it *three years ago*.
Microsoft Office for Mac Downloads and Updates | Office For Mac
Near as I can tell, this Trojan hasn't been see outside of the Far East.
Reed Corner Design : Tech News » Blog Archive » Microsoft Office vulnerability used to spread malware

If you feel that you must install AV software, let me recommend this one, which isn't fully interactive (which means that it doesn't use kernel extensions and so isn't likely to cause slowdowns and software conflicts) and is free:

ClamXav (free)
ClamXav

04-01-2012, 10:39 PM

I will throw an interesting observation into the Mix. I fix Windows machines. I see some with 1000+ pieces of Malware all over them.

Only problem is the user had the latest and greatest Anti Virus and even separate Malware remover installed and still got hit. So having protection does not mean nothing will happen, at least with most of the people I repair systems for!

The person sitting in the chair is the best Virus and Malware protection out there!

Just fixed two this week with Malware that moved all the start menu, desktop, you name it to hidden directories, Attributed all files to hidden, and threw up a screen telling them their hard drive was shot and their RAM was defective! One system had Norton totally up to date, the other Microsoft Security Essentials, again up to date.

I manually stopped the malware in Safe Mode, cleaned it with Malware Bytes and manually unhid all the files and directories and moved the files back where they belonged! What a pain.

Since everything was empty, the owners felt all their files were history.

04-02-2012, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

And you're telling me that there is a significant amount of Mac malware and we have to be afraid that it is increasing?

Sorry, that sounds like pure FUD to me. It sounds like the same garbage that we have been hearing from Windows bigots and the sensationalistic press for a decade.

This viewpoint epitomizes the type of logic that reinforces a deeply and fundamentally problematic complacency in the Mac community. Yes, we should be concerned (not afraid) about increasing malware and use it as a sign of what is inevitable: the development and successful propagation of a self-replicating virus. It doesn't matter if Macs have been relatively immune for a decade - the time will come when a virus is written. If history has taught us anything, every single object in human history has faults that can be exploited. Remember the Titanic?

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

I think that spreading that type of FUD is a disservice to all of the ordinary Mac users on this discussion list who don't know better.

Suggesting that we disregard the early warning signs for something that is inevitable is doing a disservice to new users who, thankfully, have a security conscious mindset. Please do all of us a favour and refrain from dissuading individuals from maintaining these security mindsets. With that in mind, how about we take a step back and recognize that spreading complacency actually does new users a greater disservice than arguing against any ostensibly problematic mindset that they might have about security.

04-02-2012, 03:37 AM

Originally Posted by vansmith

This viewpoint epitomizes the type of logic that reinforces a deeply and fundamentally problematic complacency in the Mac community. Yes, we should be concerned (not afraid) about increasing malware and use it as a sign of what is inevitable: the development and successful propagation of a self-replicating virus. It doesn't matter if Macs have been relatively immune for a decade - the time will come when a virus is written. If history has taught us anything, every single object in human history has faults that can be exploited. Remember the Titanic?

That virus that is "inevitable" will be *the first*. And at that point there will *only be one*. And Apple will push out a new definition to defeat it using Xprotect probably the very next day.

So I'm not terribly "concerned." Though I'm not complacent either. I follow all of the major malware reporting sites so that I can keep the folks that depend on me for support up to date.

Over a million viruses, and 95,000 new ones everyday, on Windows would have me way more than concerned, though. Enough to switch to a Mac. 8-)

Originally Posted by vansmith

Suggesting that we disregard the early warning signs for something that is inevitable is doing a disservice to new users who, thankfully, have a security conscious mindset. Please do all of us a favour and refrain from dissuading individuals from maintaining these security mindsets. With that in mind, how about we take a step back and recognize that spreading complacency actually does new users a greater disservice than arguing against any ostensibly problematic mindset that they might have about security.

I haven't suggested complacency to anyone. In fact, I preach just the opposite. Knowledge is what will keep a Mac user safe. In this very thread I've suggested how folks can protect themselves. Did you miss that?

What I'm very much against is folks going around needlessly scaring ordinary Mac users into thinking that they need to run out and purchase anti-virus software. For the average Mac user doing so is a waste of money, and it is likely to negatively impact their Mac's performance and stability.

If and when the day comes when there are a number of common threats in the wild that are otherwise difficult to avoid, and which Apple has no answer for, at that point folks should definitely consider purchasing anti-virus software. The thing is, Windows-bigots and the sensationalistic press have been predicting that there will be a flood of viruses for the Mac "real soon now" for the an entire decade. We're still waiting for even one.

I know that users who are switchers from Windows, or who use both the Mac and Windows, find it almost impossible to believe that a personal computer can be as secure as the Mac is. I'm sure that I would be the same if I was or had been a Windows user. I'd be shell-shocked. But security is why lots of people use Macs. You may want to just relax and enjoy that security (without being "complacent") until you hear that you need to do otherwise.

Major overhaul makes OS X Lion king of security
Major overhaul makes OS X Lion king of security ? The Register

Experts: OS X now much more secure than rivals
Experts: OS X now much more secure than rivals | MacNN

04-02-2012, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by vansmith

This viewpoint epitomizes the type of logic that reinforces a deeply and fundamentally problematic complacency in the Mac community.

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

That virus that is "inevitable" will be *the first*. And at that point there will *only be one*. And Apple will push out a new definition to defeat it using Xprotect probably the very next day.

Not to sound inconsiderate but if that doesn't epitomize complacency, I don't know what does. Using punctuation to emphasize/de-emphasize the seriousness of words ("inevitable" and *the first*) while extolling the virtues of a company based on an inference that has no basis in evidence (how do we know Apple will be able to defeat a virus if there's never been one?) epitomizes a complacency that will prove to be incredibly problematic when that first virus rolls out (we need to remember that Apple takes its sweet time with patches some times). Thus, you may not be explicit in emphasizing a complacent attitude but it comes out in your language.

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

I haven't suggested complacency to anyone. In fact, I preach just the opposite. Knowledge is what will keep a Mac user safe. In this very thread I've suggested how folks can protect themselves. Did you miss that?

No but there's a difference between what you're saying here and what you've said in the past. This is the issue that we are contending.

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

What I'm very much against is folks going around needlessly scaring ordinary Mac users into thinking that they need to run out and purchase anti-virus software. For the average Mac user doing so is a waste of money, and it is likely to negatively impact their Mac's performance and stability.

In principle, we all agree with you. However, we don't think it's necessary to call others bigots and accuse them of spreading FUD when they put forth an argument that doesn't gel well with ours.

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

The thing is, Windows-bigots and the sensationalistic press have been predicting that there will be a flood of viruses for the Mac "real soon now" for the an entire decade. We're still waiting for even one.

You've predicted that OS X will only have minimal threats that Apple will be able to handle with ease. What's the difference between that logic and the logic that you're arguing is "sensationalist"? Both seem to espouse a certainty that lacks any evidence.

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

You may want to just relax and enjoy that security (without being "complacent") until you hear that you need to do otherwise.

Again, this borders on complacent. There's nothing wrong with being vigilant and calling those who express concerns "sensationalist" and "bigots" encourages them to think otherwise.

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

Major overhaul makes OS X Lion king of security
Major overhaul makes OS X Lion king of security ? The Register

Experts: OS X now much more secure than rivals
Experts: OS X now much more secure than rivals | MacNN

And there is evidence to the contrary - here, here and here.

Listen, I'm not trying to make OS X as a whole look bad or argue that we should all be out with virtual shotguns warding off any potential threats. In fact, I think with proper vigilance and adequate cognizance of history's lessons, OS X can be a solid OS (the emphasis there is purposive). Suggesting that others are spread FUD while extolling the benefits of a largely untested platform (no viruses means no real testing) is incredibly problematic and we should not be conveying this message to people who are new to the platform. Should we be telling them all to lock down the machine and prepare for an onslaughts of viruses? Of course not. Should we be resting on the laurels of the past as a measuring stick for an unknown future and in so doing, encourage people to, "just relax and enjoy [...] until you hear that you need to do otherwise"? Absolutely not. Where then do we go then with our advice? That depends on the question being asked but in no circumstance should it involve calling others "bigots", spreading messages of complacency or downplaying an inevitable threat to the point of insignificance.

04-02-2012, 02:05 PM

The good thing about this thread is that it is kept alive.
( There is only one thing worse than being talked about , and that is .... not being talked about. )

There will always be as many views as there are readers, and it also depends on your appetite to risk.
Also there is no need to be paranoid, but the " wait and see " approach is not helping anyone.
One ounce of prevention equals one pound of cure, .... you can get a long way with a little effort.

Instead of focussing on technical solutions, everyone should understand that people are the weakest link when it comes to protecting assets and information.
Security is more about people and their behavior than it is about machines and their settings.

Awareness is key ... the rest is a bonus.

Cheers ... McBie

04-02-2012, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by vansmith

Listen, I'm not trying to make OS X as a whole look bad or argue that we should all be out with virtual shotguns warding off any potential threats. In fact, I think with proper vigilance and adequate cognizance of history's lessons, OS X can be a solid OS (the emphasis there is purposive). Suggesting that others are spread FUD while extolling the benefits of a largely untested platform (no viruses means no real testing) is incredibly problematic and we should not be conveying this message to people who are new to the platform. Should we be telling them all to lock down the machine and prepare for an onslaughts of viruses? Of course not. Should we be resting on the laurels of the past as a measuring stick for an unknown future and in so doing, encourage people to, "just relax and enjoy [...] until you hear that you need to do otherwise"? Absolutely not. Where then do we go then with our advice? That depends on the question being asked but in no circumstance should it involve calling others "bigots", spreading messages of complacency or downplaying an inevitable threat to the point of insignificance.

Other than attacking my position and doing absurd things like calling me "complacent" (which is the very last thing that I am, I probably follow this subject more closely than anyone here) and attacking my punctuation, I can't figure out what it is that you are advocating. You are attacking my position and my use of words, but you haven't really suggested that Mac users do anything specifically.

I advocate learning as much as possible about this topic, and taking reasonable steps to protect one's self (as I have outlined in a previous post that you have ignored) and that until there is a threat that one needs serious protection from, that one does not need to waste money (and sacrifice computer performance and stability) on anti-virus software.

Your statements that the "Mac OS is untested" are non-sensical. That would assume that over the past 10 years that no one has tried to create a virus for OS X, a proposition I know for a fact to be untrue. Quite the contrary, OS X is a very well tested personal computer OS. It has stood the test of very public use by tens of millions of users for over a decade.

Your claims that Apple doesn't respond to threats to the Mac very much sound like those of a Windows bigot, or at least you believe their claims. It's true that Apple hasn't immediately patched every vulnerability in their OS. But Apple doesn't live to satisfy all of their critics, they do things at the rate that makes sense to them. I would assume that they assess each risk and deal with it as quickly as they feel that the risk requires. So far that has seemed to work. The goal is to patch the OS before the bad guys have time to create serious exploits, and Apple has done this when required, not necessary as quickly as their critics have wanted, but so what. I was very impressed with how they handled the Mac Defender threat. See:

Mac Malware 'Explosion' Missing In*Action
Mac malware 'explosion' missing in action | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog

I'm sorry, but to me you sound either like a Windows bigot or someone who has bought into what Windows bigots have to say. I really can't argue with a bigot, or someone who wants to call me "complacent" when there isn't even the slightest evidence that I am, or who wants to scare average Mac users. I can only hope that average Mac users will read what I've written in this thread and, most importantly, checked out the many links that I've provided to back up what I've said.

04-02-2012, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

Other than attacking my position and doing absurd things like calling me "complacent" (which is the very last thing that I am, I probably follow this subject more closely than anyone here) and attacking my punctuation, I can't figure out what it is that you are advocating. You are attacking my position and my use of words, but you haven't really suggested that Mac users do anything specifically.

I made my solution pretty clear at the end:

Originally Posted by vansmith

Where then do we go then with our advice? That depends on the question being asked but in no circumstance should it involve calling others "bigots", spreading messages of complacency or downplaying an inevitable threat to the point of insignificance.

I can't recommend a blanket solution because every circumstance is different. That's the crux of what I've been saying here - we don't know how each circumstance will play out so it is unfair to new users to suggest that they try to fit into a logic that doesn't allow for wiggle room.

Second, I didn't call you complacent. Rather, I was concerned with the logic that you were advocating and the complacency that it's supporting. For all I know, you're the least complacent person in the entire world. Who you are is not my concern however. What I'm concerned with is the message that you are advocating which appears to be complacent in nature. It's here that I return to my original argument - believing that Apple will simply take care of each and every threat when the time comes is a belief soaked in complacency. All I'm asking is for you to acknowledge that Apple isn't perfect while recognizing that it is not inappropriate for end users to remain vigilant. There's nothing wrong with believing that Apple will work to keep up with security threats but it is another thing to suggest that we should just let Apple do all the hard work for us.

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

Your statements that the "Mac OS is untested" are non-sensical. That would assume that over the past 10 years that no one has tried to create a virus for OS X, a proposition I know for a fact to be untrue. Quite the contrary, OS X is a very well tested personal computer OS. It has stood the test of very public use by tens of millions of users for over a decade.

Care to provide some examples for this?

This argument also doesn't negate anything I said earlier. Regardless of whether or not OS X has remained immune from viruses doesn't make future infections impossible. Waiting until the problem occurs and then fixing it is the wrong attitude to take if we can be proactive now by encouraging awareness.

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

Your claims that Apple doesn't respond to threats to the Mac very much sound like those of a Windows bigot, or at least you believe their claims. It's true that Apple hasn't immediately patched every vulnerability in their OS. But Apple doesn't live to satisfy all of their critics, they do things at the rate that makes sense to them.

And as I suggested, sometimes that isn't fast enough. This is why believing that Apple will always make the right decisions is the wrong attitude to have. Perhaps the ultimate question here is this: what makes Apple so much better prepared than Microsoft? If OS X were to gain an "attack worthy" market share, what is it about Apple that makes them a much better developer with regards to security? For all I know, they might be better (I can't see into the future) but I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that they would be leagues ahead of other companies if we have nothing to go on.

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

I'm sorry, but to me you sound either like a Windows bigot or someone who has bought into what Windows bigots have to say. I really can't argue with a bigot, or someone who wants to call me "complacent" when there isn't even the slightest evidence that I am, or who wants to scare average Mac users. I can only hope that average Mac users will read what I've written in this thread and, most importantly, checked out the many links that I've provided to back up what I've said.

I'm just going to remind you of the Community Guidelines, specifically with regards to the section that deals with treatment of other members. Please be aware of that before you continue what appears to be a determination to call everyone who disagrees with you a bigot. Feel free to disagree with anything I say but you need to stop denigrating the character of those of us who you happen to disagree with.

Finally, I don't think encouraging awareness and vigilance, while refraining from arguing that "Apple knows best all the time" is scaring them. In fact, I'd suggest that encouraging users to be proactive in their thinking will help keep OS X secure for much longer than a reactionary based logic.

04-03-2012, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by vansmith

I can't recommend a blanket solution because every circumstance is different.

It sounds to me as if you have no useful suggestions for Mac users. And it appears to me that you are arguing just to argue, to stand up for Microsoft vs. Apple, and to tell all Mac users that they are "complacent." Frankly, it sounds to me as if you just don't like Mac users.

Which is why I'm not going to continue this exchange. There are supposedly over 10,000 members of this discussion group. Maybe someone else wants to speak up about being called "complacent" and being told that the Mac OS after 10 years is "untested" and that there will be a big onslaught of viruses for the Mac any day now and that we all aren't being "vigilant" enough (whatever that all means).

Originally Posted by vansmith

All I'm asking is for you to acknowledge that Apple isn't perfect while recognizing that it is not inappropriate for end users to remain vigilant.

I never said that Apple is "perfect" and I don't believe that they are. In fact, I believe that they are far from perfect. Those are all your words. However, I do believe that Apple understands that security is one of the Mac's big selling points, and that it is very much in their interest to keep the Mac as secure as possible. To that end I believe that Apple is going the extra mile to make sure that the Mac remains secure. I believe that Apple showed how far they are willing to go with the Mac Defender threat. See:
Mac malware 'explosion' missing in action | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog

Experts: OS X now much more secure than rivals
Experts: OS X now much more secure than rivals | MacNN

Lion Security: Building on the iOS Foundation
TidBITS Safe Computing: Lion Security: Building on the iOS Foundation
"...we have security options never before available to consumers"

Major overhaul makes OS X Lion king of security
Major overhaul makes OS X Lion king of security ? The Register

Apple exposing Mac OS X Lion to security experts for review
Inside Mac OS X 10.7 Lion: Apple exposing beta to security experts for review

As far as having users "remain vigilant" you have yet to define what you mean by that.

Users can run out and purchase anti-virus software, but since such software requires definitions for existing viruses to work, and since no such viruses exist, doing so would be a waste of money. Also, using AV software unnecessarily slows down one's Mac and may even make it unstable.

Users can be paranoid, and not use the Internet, but I think that would be rather extreme...and unnecessary.

I'm not sure how Mac users could be "vigilant" enough to satisfy you. If you are saying that Mac users don't have any concerns about viruses that might one day show up, I think that is both unfounded and offensive. Mac users can be concerned without having to be paranoid. Paranoia might be appropriate for Windows users, with over a million threats to worry about. Mac users don't have to be paranoid. That's why most of them are using a Mac.

As I said, I'm not going to continue with this exchange. Maybe someone else would like to defend Mac users here.

04-03-2012, 03:25 AM

You are fighting with a very respected member here and also part of our staff.

I know him very well and he is no Mac hater and for sure not a Windows lover. Unix geek actually. All he is saying is nothing is perfect and that is very true. I love OSX and feel it's the most secure OS out there at least for normal people, but in the future some smart person could write something and compromise it. I know, I have heard it for the last 10 years and nothing major, but as James Bond said, NEVER SAY NEVER! Being safe and taking precautions is not a bad thing.

I one time dared a hacker to compromise my Mac Mini. Even gave them my IP. Nothing, but there are some very smart people out there. I consider them very stupid to ruin someone else's computer, but code wise they are smart.

04-03-2012, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by dtravis7

You are fighting with a very respected member here and also part of our staff.

No, I'm not "fighting" with him at all. He's apparently just arguing with me over things that I haven't said.

Originally Posted by dtravis7

Being safe and taking precautions is not a bad thing.

What precautions do you propose? Saying that Mac users are "complacent" or that they need to "take precautions" doesn't mean anything unless you actually outline what you are talking about.

So far, I seem to be the only person in this thread who has proposed steps to take to protect one's Mac. I've even offered links to back those things up and where to get Office updates that will protect users:

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

The biggest threat is Flashback, and you can easily protect yourself from that by updating to the latest version of Java, and for good measure turning Java (*not* JavaScript, which despite the name is something entirely different) off in your browser.

There is a very new Trojan that infects Microsoft Office, but Microsoft released a security update that will protect you from it *three years ago*.
Microsoft Office for Mac Downloads and Updates | Office For Mac
Near as I can tell, this Trojan hasn't been see outside of the Far East.
Reed Corner Design : Tech News » Blog Archive » Microsoft Office vulnerability used to spread malware

04-03-2012, 05:13 AM

I will leave it at this, better read the community guidelines and then re-read all your posts.

04-03-2012, 05:24 AM

Would like to share my 2 cents on all of this.

This thread is not about one OS compared to another OS, it is about risk.
Off course technical differences between OS's make one more robust than the other, but that is not where the focus needs to be.

In today's computing environment, there is a need to change the mindset of people - there is a need to create a risk conscious and security aware culture.
Am doing IT Risk Management for more than 20 years for a top-100 FTSE global company ( trying to protect billions of pounds ), I can say that the trends are there ( trends are based on history ) and the indicators are clear. You need to get the technology right, but that is a detail ( annoying but important ).
The number one factor in IT risk management is .... people behavior.... layer 8 of the OSI model ( the layer between the chair and the keyboard. -_- )

The bad guys writing malicious code will always be there, but it will not bring in the big personal financial benefits for them, and they know that. If you want to go after information, knowledge and money ..... just ask the people for their username and password ... easy, people talk/write a lot you know.... a bit of profiling is all they need to do. No amount of technology can protect you against that.

The mouse is faster than the brain, and that is what needs to change.
Awareness and communication is what will help the people using a computing device, any computing device.

There is no need to be paranoid, but being aware of the risks is the most important thing.
You can still decide to ignore the risks, not to give a **** which is fine as well, as long as you make a well informed decision..

Lets keep this thread alive in the way it was intended .... share quality information and be open and transparant, not just focus on technology/semantics but also on behavior.

I like this thread very much because this is a topic where being pro-active pays off.

Amen.

Cheers ... McBie

04-03-2012, 12:02 PM

This will be my last comment on the topic for we are going in circles.

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

It sounds to me as if you have no useful suggestions for Mac users. And it appears to me that you are arguing just to argue, to stand up for Microsoft vs. Apple, and to tell all Mac users that they are "complacent." Frankly, it sounds to me as if you just don't like Mac users.

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I don't like Mac users. Nothing I have said would suggest that this was the case.

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

Maybe someone else wants to speak up about being called "complacent" and being told that the Mac OS after 10 years is "untested" and that there will be a big onslaught of viruses for the Mac any day now and that we all aren't being "vigilant" enough (whatever that all means). [...] As far as having users "remain vigilant" you have yet to define what you mean by that.

Two quick points. First, I don't call anyone complacent. I've mentioned that multiple times now. I was referring to the logic employed earlier. The logic used and the individual are two different things - it's very possible to have very bad logic and be a generally astute person (as I'm sure you are). Second, I'm not sure why I need to define vigilant. The word is pretty self-explanatory.

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

Users can run out and purchase anti-virus software, but since such software requires definitions for existing viruses to work, and since no such viruses exist, doing so would be a waste of money. Also, using AV software unnecessarily slows down one's Mac and may even make it unstable.

I never once suggested that users go out and buy AV software.

Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer

If you are saying that Mac users don't have any concerns about viruses that might one day show up, I think that is both unfounded and offensive. Mac users can be concerned without having to be paranoid. Paranoia might be appropriate for Windows users, with over a million threats to worry about. Mac users don't have to be paranoid. That's why most of them are using a Mac.

Yes, I am suggesting that a portion of the Mac user base has been led to believe that Macs are impenetrable machines which leads them to believe that they can browse the web with impunity. I don't think it's a very large portion of the population but I do believe that they exist. Do I think this is reflective of the population at large? Absolutely not. Do I think it's a logic worth contending? Absolutely.

Originally Posted by dtravis7

I know him very well and he is no Mac hater and for sure not a Windows lover. Unix geek actually. All he is saying is nothing is perfect and that is very true.

This sums up what I wanted to say about myself (which I shouldn't have to do). I use a Mac because I enjoy it. As for the contention that I, "just don't like Mac users," I'll let my position as an administrator on a Mac forum speak for itself. I'm a little bothered that you would suggest such a thing for I would like to think that my actions around here have made my views on Macs sufficiently clear. Second, yes, I am arguing that nothing is perfect. This has been my contention throughout this debate. I also believe that recognizing this is beneficial for all. Why? Simple: by recognizing that nothing is perfect, that OS X has flaws and that serious threats are an inevitability, we'll all be better off. Resting on the laurels of the past makes us happy now but doesn't help us in the future. With specific references to AV soltuions, lambasting individuals for thinking AV software is an option is an inappropriate response. Instead of using it as a chance to disparage people (I'm not claiming that you do but many others do), we should use it as an opportunity to educate people about the "malware landscape" that we have to deal with as Mac users.

With that, I have made my point. If you have any concerns with what I have said, feel free to voice them but know that I have nothing new to say.