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Schweb's Lounge Forum for general conversation, chit chat, or most topics that don't fit in another forum.

Interesting story: Man kill to thieves


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fleurya

 
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http://www.break.com/index/brave-nei...911-call2.html

Just listened to this 911 called of a man going out and shooting dead 2 thieves who were robbing his neighbors. There's definitely strong points from both sides of whether or not this guy's actions were proper, however I think he was wrong.

I don't intend for this to spark a gun control debate. There's been plenty of that. I just brought it up regarding what the man did and the laws involved.

The reason I think the man is wrong is because even before he went outside or the men came in his property, he told the operator "I'm gonna kill 'em" That's murderous intent, plain and simple. Even though he was told many times not to go outside, he did anyway. He even said if he goes outside his life could be in danger and he would defend himself. This to me says not only did the man understand he was safer in his house where he could surveil the movements of the thieves from a safe location, but also that going outside would create a situation for him where he could justify shooting the men. It sounds like he was looking for a reason to shoot them.

I think this guy wanted to kill. I don't think protection was in his mind except as an excuse to kill. The robbers were later found to be unarmed, so there were obviously no visible weapons. He could have simply held them at gunpoint or at the very least shot them in the leg or something to stop them. (easily done for anyone at 15 feet distance, which was later reported to be the distance he shot from the guys) But he didn't do that, or even give them a warning. He just shouted "boom, you're dead" and shot to kill.

People feels good about what this man did, but I think that's only because of who the perpetrators were: two older hispanic men who had been convicted of drug crimes in the past. These people who most of which probably think of themselves a good Christians, but seem to be lacking in forgiveness and chance for redemption. But would they feel the same if they were a couple of teenage boys going through a mischievous phase in their life? Would they feel like it was worth it to wipe out the rest of their lives? He admitted he didn't know the neighbors. What if these men knew the neighbors and were acting at their request. I, for one, have crawled through a friend's window to get something for them and crawled through my own window when I've locked myself out. It's rare, but it's a possibility. We have trained officers who handle these situations and try to preserve life as best as possible and courts to determine those facts: because they don't know all the facts immediately. And nobody deserves to die for robbery. This man seemed to think differently and acted on his feelings. For those who praise this behavior, what would the world be like if we all felt that way?

I think this demonstrates a problem with laws allowing use of deadly force. I am first to say we should be able to defend ourselves and I'm not saying anything against guns, but there is definitely a problem as it leaves the door open for murderous schemes and accidental shootings.

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The fact that they were not on his property and were not threatening him should be sufficient to put him away. I'm sure people think it's great, but this guy went out of bounds on this one and crossed into "vigilante" territory IMO. Being a "Good Christian" has nothing to do with it, being an intelligent law abiding citizen does.

This has nothing to do with gun control, this has to do with stupidity.


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fleurya

 
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Yeah, it doesn't have anything to do with being a good Christian. I consider myself a good Christian and don't think people should die for petty robbery. I just can't stand it when other people claim the opposite and hold up their religious flag in the process. I feel like it taints my beliefs and it makes me mad.

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This guy should have just stayed inside his own house. I agree, I think he just wanted to kill someone. This guy is just insane. I believe the only time you shoot to kill someone is if you think you or anyone in your family is in immediate danger. Now if the robbers broke into this guy's house while he was home, then he MIGHT have had a reason to shoot them.
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Laws are pretty clear. You do have a right to defend yourself and defend others against credible threat of personal harm, but that doesn't give you the right to play vigilante against robbers when you and no one else is threatened. I could see this guy pleading his case as manslaughter versus murder - crime of passion versus malice aforethought - but I wouldn't buy it.

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i live about 5 miles from where the guy killed those people.
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Originally Posted by God
Thou shalt not kill any living thing, for life is given to all by God, and that which God has given, let not man taketh it away.
Doesn't sound much like a "Good Christian" to me either.

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Yikes! I just noticed what a horrible job I did typing the title of this thread! I'm pretty embarrassed of that. Sorry!

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Sgt Beavis

 
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First off, I'm a Texas Immigrant (from Louisiana)

I have several weapons and a concealed handgun permit

I have defended myself and my wife on two occasions with my handgun. On neither occasion did I fire my weapon. Simply aiming got the job done.

I'm all for the defense of Life, liberty, and property. If a thief breaks into my house, I'm not going to give him a second to decide if he is going to simply be a thief that day or if he is going to cross the line into one of several violent crimes. If he breaks into my house I will open fire and I will shoot to kill. I will make no attempt to retreat.

All that said, I'm not so sure that Joe Horn is on the right side of the law, whether it be the spirit or letter. It appears to me that he was not in danger as long as he remained in his home. However there is evidence to suggest that the thieves did approach him on his land. There is also a gray area in Texas law that allows a home owner to defend a neighbor, or their property, under certain circumstances. I'll have to go back and read it to see if Mr. Horn was with that part of the law.....

I can tell you this. The Pasadena police are still investigating this and plan to turn all evidence over to the DA's office, sometime next week. The DA will have to decide what to do. However it should be noted that the DA is an elected official and Joe Horn has the public support by a huge majority. Even my friends and I have had some heated debates on whether or not his actions were RIGHT and/or LEGAL (which are two different things)

BTW, the Bible does not state, "Thou shall not kill"

The correct translation reads "Thou shall not MURDER"

There is a HUGE difference between killing someone in self defense or the protection of another person or in war and the pre-meditated and unlawful act of murdering someone. So the question remains, did Mr Horn kill or murder those thieves.

Some more info on the 6th Commandment with supporting scripture.
http://www.biblestudy.org/question/notkill.html
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Sgt Beavis

 
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Oh, he is a recent Dallas Morning News article on the case:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...D8T5L4GO0.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Beavis View Post
There is also a gray area in Texas law that allows a home owner to defend a neighbor, or their property, under certain circumstances. I'll have to go back and read it to see if Mr. Horn was with that part of the law.....
Yeah, I think it states that you can in the event of arson or if the intrusion is a night (don't really understand that one), which neither is the case in this situation.

Just listening to him talking on the phone, I can't help but get the feeling this man was just itching to go out and blast away. Before he was even in danger, he said directly "I'm gonna kill 'em". That doesn't sound like something a man thinking of protecting himself would say when he's not even in danger yet. He also kept saying "If I go out there, I'll do what I have to, to protect myself". That's fine, but his statement seems to imply that he was perfectly safe where he was and only going outside would endanger his life and force an engagement.

Then right before he shot the first guy he said "Boom! You're dead!" Like he's in an action movie or something. Would someone really concerned for their safety in mortal danger with no hope but to shoot stop to and take time to say something like that?? Like Sgt. Beavis said, he wouldn't give a perp a second, just shoot when in immediate danger.

Backers of Joe want to illogically, or strategically, label those who believe he is wrong as protectors of thieves and others who break the law. Saying Joe is wrong isn't saying stealing is right. That overly-simplistic kind of black and white "with us or against us" mentality is the reasoning of simpletons. I don't want to protect thieves. I want to protect life and try to help people live good lives. And I want to be able to walk down the street without feeling that some self-proclaimed law enforcer might mistake me for a perpetrator and shoot me without knowing the facts or allowing for proper due process and fitting judgement to take place.

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Originally Posted by Sgt Beavis View Post
However it should be noted that the DA is an elected official and Joe Horn has the public support by a huge majority.
That's really too bad. I've seen what many people have said about this case; calling him a hero and wanting to pin medals on him. Even if I felt he was right, I still wouldn't be able to ignore the numerous potential ways this situation could have ended without death. I think those who just call this an open and shut clear case are simply diluting themselves for whatever reason, but in end think killing for petty theft is ok. Those people who believe so strongly in freedom and the American way are boldly rejecting what they believe in: a cornerstone of freedom and an orderly society, the right to due process. I guarantee that if it were two 15 year old boys or that old man accidentally shot an non-uniformed police officer (he didn't know what the second guy looked like) everyone would be singing a different tune.

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Yes your right. It would have been better to take a wait and see attitude. Maybe the thieves kill someone or a few people for that matter, then we could spend a few million prosecuting them and then pay to have them sit in jail for the rest of their lives at the tax payors expense. This is just the kind of attitude that enables these crooks to prey on people. Dont think for a minute that they are not. We are all just victims that hav'nt been victimized yet. I dont condone what this person did but I certainly do understand it. How long are law abiding innocent people going to stand by and watch as more and more people that have done nothing are robbed,beaten and killed by these people. Its high time that we, the law abiding people start taking care of our rights. Too many people fight for the rights of criminals, while the victims and their families have none. I live in Canada and I see on a daily basis the way our justice system protects criminals while the public has no rights. Its sickening to see another family grieve for a loved one while the criminal is out in 5 years for good behavior. People like you bother me. Its your thinking that bothers me. I dont think we should live in a lawless society but I think we are missing the point here. These people are commiting crimes and when they do they should lose their rights as a member of our socity. Stop enabling these people. Our children grow up today with no concept of right or wrong. No idea of what responsibily is and no repsect for other people and the law. Why? Because there are no consequences for their action. The cops cant touch them, the courts wont do anything and the parents have no rights to discipline them.

Personally I say let God sort it out.
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he should of remained in his home and waited for the police to arrive...

It wasent his home, if he wanted to be a good neighbor all he had to do was call the police which he did, instead he went outside with a shotgun even after the operator told him not to, he repeatedly said Im going to Kill Them I dont care... so for his stupidity he should go away for pre meditated Murder... yes burglary is bad stealing is bad, but no one should receive a death sentence for it.

This is the kind of guy who has a bumper sticker on his pickup that reads "Kill em All let God Sort Em Out..."
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Hades, thank you for proving my point on everything I said in my last comment on this thread.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hades View Post
Maybe the thieves kill someone or a few people for that matter, then we could spend a few million prosecuting them and then pay to have them sit in jail for the rest of their lives at the tax payors expense. This is just the kind of attitude that enables these crooks to prey on people. . . . We are all just victims that hav'nt been victimized yet.. . . . Its high time that we, the law abiding people start taking care of our rights. . . . People like you bother me. Its your thinking that bothers me.

Personally I say let God sort it out.
Absolutely right. The only punishment for everything should be hanging. God would sort it out.

Think of the money that would be saved in prosecuting jay-walkers. No more justices of the peace worse yet, those high falutin' judges to pay. And hanging a child for stealing a loaf of bread would save millions of dollars by getting rid of all those child services and the useless drones they're worse than police forces working for them.

Kill 'em all, I say, and get rid of the surplus population.
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