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  1. #46

    dtravis7's Avatar
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    VERY cool and thanks! Been so busy I did not even know. Thought you were maybe Teasing VAN like some of us do! Getting it now.

  2. #47

    vansmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TattooedMac View Post
    *cough* yougotanotherone *cough*
    You can't throw out a challenge and not expect a response. How about a solution to this one?

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  3. #48

    dtravis7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vansmith View Post
    You can't throw out a challenge and not expect a response. How about a solution to this one?

    Screen Shot 2014-01-24 at 6.58.35 AM.png

    Van, did Pages open RTF in 09? I never tried it as I use TextWrangler for that filetype.

  4. #49

    vansmith's Avatar
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    I don't know but even if it didn't, why has Apple not added support for something so common?
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  5. #50

    dtravis7's Avatar
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    Agree but was just curious if they removed support. I have 09 on this iMac. Will try it.

  6. #51

    dtravis7's Avatar
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    Just opened 10 RTF files in Pages 09. All opened fine. So they took that away! Grrrrrrrr!!!! Grin

  7. #52


    Member Since
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    A few counter points to add in to this discussion:

    I have been a PC user since 486 days, and we migrated over to first Windows laptops then Macs. My wife has a MBA from 'late 2010' and I have recently upgraded to the current rMBP from a 2-year old MBP. We also have a Mac Mini ('mid 2011'). All my kit runs Mavericks.

    I'm not a power user like some of you guys (and gals) are, but I work in computing and provide IT support to all my extended family so I know a thing or two.

    As soon as you move away from desktop PCs the ability to upgrade them is significantly reduced. I attempted to upgrade two Vaio laptops from Vista to Windows 7 and found out the hard way that laptop drivers are developed by the laptop supplier, not the component supplier and they only tend to maintain them for 6 months. My upgraded laptops ran, but like a dog and very unstable. All my Macs are still well supported and run the latest OS capably. I wouldn't be able to say that about a Windows laptop of similar age.

    I moved to Apple for the ecosystem. The tight control between hardware and software allows for kit to remain in support for much longer. A friend of mine who is a true Mac-head has been running a white MacBook for years and (although it could no longer keep up with the latest software updates) it was still going strong. She is now using my older MBP but she didn't have to upgrade if she didn't want to.

    The tight integration also allows easy use of extra kit: I have a a Time Machine, 2 AirPorts and 2 Apple TVs to pipe media all round my house for far less money than something like Sonos. I can also synchronise painlessly between my Macs, iPhone and iPad (and my wife has her own, parallel set of kit). That requires quite a lot of fiddling to get running on a Windows / Android combination with multiple suppliers and cloud services. Apple mange all that for me and 'it just works' 99 times out of 100.

    Let's look at costs. Another friend of mine is looking to get a medium level gaming PC, with similar spec to my rMBP. Just the PC tower alone is coming out more expensive than my rMBP, unless he buys components and builds it himself. And he wants a top quality screen on top of that, which I already have with my device. He isn't a tech-guru and has had problems with component-based PCs in the past, so that just isn't an option for him. He would also like to have effective back-up solutions for his PC, and this is much more fiddly (again) with a PC and separate solution vendors.

    Another aspect on costs: for what ever reason, Apple has moved to a 'free upgrade' model for both iOS and OSX. That development has to be paid for some how, so it is reasonable for them to induce you to buy more of their hardware every few years - that is how they finance the software development. If you want the latest version of Windows, it will cost you.

    I don't know what the situation is like on recycling in other countries, but they are really hot on this in the UK. If I just put a computer out on the side of the street, our 'bin men' won't take it. I would have to arrange special collection or take it to a municipal waste disposal centre. At such a centre they have a separate area for electronic devices so that they can be taken away and stripped for recycling. And Apple devices are surely one of the most recyclable devices around, with high levels of aluminium and glass that can both be recycled fairly easily?

    On top of that, in my experience, few people would just throw way a computer unless it was physically defunct. If you are in the game of updating kit to keep on the processing curve then you know enough to sell on your older kit to people with lower needs; people who don't care about this will keep the exact same PC for 5-7 years. I always sell or pass-on my old computers. And you can't watch TV for an hour in the UK on some channels without seeing adverts for companies who will recycle your old mobile for you (or re-sell it in other markets); even the phone shops are in on it and will offer you a part-ex on your old handset now.

    So:
    • Apple kit isn't actually vastly more expensive when you do a like-for-like comparison, there is just a higher initial cost
    • 99% of users never upgrade their hardware, and even if you want to it's not always easy
    • Apple kit actually has a longer useful life than Windows kit in real-terms
    • Apple kit is much easier to use than Windows kit in many ways, so if those ways are valuable to you then this is another advantage
    • Most kit gets passed on between users and eventually recycled


    All IMHO.

    On a side note, one of my other hobbies is cars and I use to have a heavily modified one. It is always cheaper to modify a car to a level of performance than to buy that same level from the manufacturer. Why is this? Firstly, they have to warranty that car for a significant period, which is a safety net you don't have with a modified car if things go wrong. Second, there isn't enough market to mass-produce a car with the specification of a modified car at volume economically. I think similar forces apply to computers, with similar economic pressures.

  8. #53

    XJ-linux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbm View Post

    On a side note, one of my other hobbies is cars and I use to have a heavily modified one. It is always cheaper to modify a car to a level of performance than to buy that same level from the manufacturer. Why is this? Firstly, they have to warranty that car for a significant period, which is a safety net you don't have with a modified car if things go wrong. Second, there isn't enough market to mass-produce a car with the specification of a modified car at volume economically. I think similar forces apply to computers, with similar economic pressures.
    I agree with much of what you posted on computers. I'd have to disagree on this part on vehicles though in some ways. The cost to upgrade is really dependent upon the base car and what you consider to be an equal to a factory performance version of that vehicle. Yeah, you can hop up a Ricer or VW pretty cheaply with a blower, NOS and some exhaust work. But that really isn't a complete upgrade and they aren't close to factory in terms of a working complete system of tested parts. Turning a car into a competitor for a faster model isn't so simple. As an example, you'd save at least $5-$10k USD buying a Dodge Challenger or Charger SRT-8 that trying to beef up a standard 5.7L Hemi to that level of performance. There's more to a performance package than bolt on's - try doing the full bottom end to go along with the blower so the engine doesn't "blow up", or do a 750hp rated rear end with a LSD and proper high 3's gearing to match the built engine rpm band. Don't forget redoing all body mounts, chassis welds and members and steering geometry and suspension relocation. Did I mention ECM/PSC tuning, cooling and electric scaling? Do people strap on blowers, new rims and a stereo and just run like that? Yes, but they forgot a ton of stuff, probably never actually race it and generally sell the Frankencar before a few years have passed (for less than the cost of the same vehicle with no mods).
    Never judge a man, untill you have walked a mile in his shoes...
    That way you'll be a mile away from him, and you'll have his shoes.

  9. #54


    Member Since
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJ-linux View Post
    I agree with much of what you posted on computers. I'd have to disagree on this part on vehicles though in some ways. The cost to upgrade is really dependent upon the base car and what you consider to be an equal to a factory performance version of that vehicle. Yeah, you can hop up a Ricer or VW pretty cheaply with a blower, NOS and some exhaust work. But that really isn't a complete upgrade and they aren't close to factory in terms of a working complete system of tested parts. Turning a car into a competitor for a faster model isn't so simple. As an example, you'd save at least $5-$10k USD buying a Dodge Challenger or Charger SRT-8 that trying to beef up a standard 5.7L Hemi to that level of performance. There's more to a performance package than bolt on's - try doing the full bottom end to go along with the blower so the engine doesn't "blow up", or do a 750hp rated rear end with a LSD and proper high 3's gearing to match the built engine rpm band. Don't forget redoing all body mounts, chassis welds and members and steering geometry and suspension relocation. Did I mention ECM/PSC tuning, cooling and electric scaling? Do people strap on blowers, new rims and a stereo and just run like that? Yes, but they forgot a ton of stuff, probably never actually race it and generally sell the Frankencar before a few years have passed (for less than the cost of the same vehicle with no mods).
    I think you've just proved my point

    My car had uprated coil-overs, brakes (including armoured hoses), engine mounts, anti-roll bars, suspension arms, engine management and water-injection cooling.

  10. #55

    chscag's Avatar
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    Bringing back Applescript Support in Numbers and iWorks 09 support added as well *cough* yougotanotherone *cough*
    No scripting support Brent. I tried last night after the updates and it still isn't there which makes me think... why the heck did they even issue the update? Oh yeah, vertical ruler support in Pages and additional support for MS Office formats. Unfortunately, they forgot about RTF support.

  11. #56

    dtravis7's Avatar
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    Tried to open an RTF also after the update. Still does not work. Works on 09 though like I said above. Thanks Van for pointing that point out.

  12. #57

    TattooedMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vansmith View Post
    You can't throw out a challenge and not expect a response. How about a solution to this one?

    Screen Shot 2014-01-24 at 6.58.35 AM.png
    Ok, ok, I'll back off now

    Quote Originally Posted by dtravis7 View Post
    Just opened 10 RTF files in Pages 09. All opened fine. So they took that away! Grrrrrrrr!!!! Grin
    Well that is silly then isn't it. But as i said, if we keep screaming, Apple will take notice at the end of the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by chscag View Post
    No scripting support Brent. I tried last night after the updates and it still isn't there which makes me think... why the heck did they even issue the update? Oh yeah, vertical ruler support in Pages and additional support for MS Office formats. Unfortunately, they forgot about RTF support.
    There is improved Applescripting Support in Numbers only Charlie. Is in the release notes as well as being well documented online, as in the Aust Macworld Article ~ iWork updates for Mac, iOS return missing features
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  13. #58

    chscag's Avatar
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    Yeah, I just noticed that Brent, but I really need the scripting support in Pages. The older version of Pages had good solid scripting support which could be accessed from the "services" menu. I do use Numbers on occasion to convert CSV files my bank downloads to me, however, scripting is not needed there.

  14. #59

    TattooedMac's Avatar
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    From what i have read Charlie, is it is coming. Apple promised back in Nov 2013 that they will start to bring back features, and I'm sure Pages will be on that list. I think more people use Scripting in Number than Pages hence then adding that first ?? Thats only a opinion, and not based on any fact, but it will come
    No RTF support is just silly, but i have a lot of .txt files, using Textastic as my Text Editor, so that makes it easier for me, to write in one and drop it into Pages, but yea no RTF is just silly . . . .
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  15. #60

    Exodist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vansmith View Post
    I don't know but even if it didn't, why has Apple not added support for something so common?
    Yea that makes you scratch your head. Even more so since TextEdit does??

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