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  1. #16

    pigoo3's Avatar
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    What I'm going to say may fall on deaf ears...but I'm going to say it anyway!

    2014 will be my 28th year as a "Mac-User". During that time Apple has tried many many things that "Went Against the Grain" of the computing world.

    - Did I like them all...of course not.
    - Did many of those things extract extra $$$ out of my wallet...heck yes.
    - Were some of those things "technological dead-ends"...yes.

    The "Windows World" is all about three things:

    - the status quo
    - minimizing risk
    - being a "Me Too"

    The "Apple World" is all about:

    - change
    - change
    - change

    Over the last 28 years...compare the number of innovations Apple has been the first to introduce...and the number of things the "Windows World" has been the first to introduce.

    Then also think about how the "Windows World" has introduced new technology in their products 6-12 months AFTER Apple introduced it first!

    Apple may not always be the company that actually comes up with the new technologies...but many times they are the first company to take the risk...and introduce the new technologies.

    There have been MANY bumps in the road as a long-time Mac-User (change is difficult). IMHO...the sealed-box design route Apple has been taking is probably the latest "bump in the road".

    Personally I do not appreciate the sealed-box designs...but then I wasn't a big fan of some things Apple has done over the past 28 years either.

    For me...the one constant over the past 28 years is the Mac OS. The Mac OS (to me) is the true Macintosh computing experience. The hardware changes...but the Mac OS continues to be (and has always been) a great OS to "compute" with!

    For the time being I'll "go with the flow" and see how things evolve. 5+ years from now we will have to see how things stand. We may smile & say..."Yeah...Apple was doing some pretty funky stuff back then!"

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  2. #17

    cwa107's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigoo3 View Post
    What I'm going to say may fall on deaf ears...but I'm going to say it anyway!

    2014 will be my 28th year as a "Mac-User". During that time Apple has tried many many things that "Went Against the Grain" of the computing world.
    This is the 'Apple moved my cheese' argument that is typically applied when Apple does something like remove a floppy or CD drive. And I get it - and agree somewhat.

    However, this situation is more dire than that.

    E-waste is a problem for my generation and will be even more so for my children and grandchildren. Beyond that, there is environmental damage, exhaustion of raw materials and loss of human life associated with the greater demands of the electronics industry. And building products that are very deliberately sealed, non-repairable (and yet still contain consumables), and non upgradeable (so you can't get max usable life from it) is exacerbating this very real problem.

    We are shielded from it here in the US, but pan-Asian countries are already seeing fallout of this. Yes, as long as we make electronics, we're going to have these problems. However, just as we're doing our best to conserve energy, we ought to be trying to conserve our electronics by making them less disposable.

    And we can change that, but not if we just say stuff like "Oh that's Apple - they do it all the time". I agree that Apple is a leader. I agree that sometimes you have to make clean breaks in order to move a cause further - it's just that in this case, they're setting the trend in a very bad way.
    Liquid and computers don't mix. It might seem simple, but we see an incredible amount of people post here about spills. Keep drinks and other liquids away from your expensive electronics!

    https://youtu.be/KHZ8ek-6ccc

  3. #18

    MYmacROX's Avatar
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    I am not a super long-time Mac user (about 5 yrs now) and I'm not a pro user or highly tech savvy (maybe novice).

    I absolutely LOVE OS X and that's why I have a Mac (2 of them actually). I upgraded the HDD and RAM in my 2008 MBP myself and it was an exciting experience. I'm slightly disappointed that I cannot do either of those things with my late 2012 21.5" iMac. Oh well, not the end of the world.

    It would take a miracle for me to own a Windows machine ever again. It's not worth all my time and effort to keep up all that maintenance and have to run AV software. Some of the mentions of Linux has me intrigued and that may be something to consider if/when OS X becomes unbearable to use.

    I'm cautiously optimistic about the closed-box future of Macs, but more concerned with OS X.
    64GB iPhone 6, 64GB iPad Air 2.

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  4. #19

    Exodist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwa107 View Post
    ..............
    We are shielded from it here in the US, but pan-Asian countries are already seeing fallout of this. Yes, as long as we make electronics, we're going to have these problems. However, just as we're doing our best to conserve energy, we ought to be trying to conserve our electronics by making them less disposable.
    .......
    I fully agree..

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  5. #20

    vansmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigoo3 View Post
    The "Windows World" is all about three things:

    - the status quo
    - minimizing risk
    - being a "Me Too"

    The "Apple World" is all about:

    - change
    - change
    - change

    Over the last 28 years...compare the number of innovations Apple has been the first to introduce...and the number of things the "Windows World" has been the first to introduce.
    I see things in a very different way. Levy as much criticism as is necessary for MSFTs recent products but it's hard to argue that it isn't a change from the past. Apple on the other hand has made incremental improvements to OS X over the last few years and iOS is pretty darn close to the same thing we saw years ago beneath the new iOS 7 coat of paint. The former doesn't bother me especially since this works in light of W8 but the latter doesn't work in a market moving twice as fast. But, I don't want to turn this into an Apple vs. <insert competition> debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by cwa107 View Post
    We are shielded from it here in the US, but pan-Asian countries are already seeing fallout of this.
    Maybe not.

    The inability for devices to have some sense of longevity is a huge problem - people have been complaining about planned obsolescence for years (albeit for more economic reasons). Making the machine dependent on every single part working every single day is dangerous.
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  6. #21

    cwa107's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vansmith View Post
    Maybe not.

    The inability for devices to have some sense of longevity is a huge problem - people have been complaining about planned obsolescence for years (albeit for more economic reasons). Making the machine dependent on every single part working every single day is dangerous.
    Scary - and hard to turn a blind eye to it. Clouds of smog are one thing but there's even more dire consequences to the direction the industry is taking...

    I won't bore you with links - but if you're interested in how bad of a problem this really is, just Google "e-waste consequences" and prepare yourself for an eye-opening experience.

    I don't mean to sound like a zealot or an environmentalist nut, but I think this is a problem we can solve quite easily - and in turn, reap economic benefits from as well as create jobs. We just all have to admit that it's a problem and stop apologizing for companies that contribute to it (and Apple is not alone in this).
    Liquid and computers don't mix. It might seem simple, but we see an incredible amount of people post here about spills. Keep drinks and other liquids away from your expensive electronics!

    https://youtu.be/KHZ8ek-6ccc

  7. #22

    pigoo3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwa107 View Post
    This is the 'Apple moved my cheese' argument that is typically applied when Apple does something like remove a floppy or CD drive. And I get it - and agree somewhat.

    E-waste is a problem for my generation and will be even more so for my children and grandchildren.

    And we can change that, but not if we just say stuff like "Oh that's Apple - they do it all the time". I agree that Apple is a leader. I agree that sometimes you have to make clean breaks in order to move a cause further - it's just that in this case, they're setting the trend in a very bad way.
    I think that we are discussing two things:

    1. The E-waste problem.
    2. Not liking (from a "fun-computing" standpoint) the sealed-box route Apple is currently taking.

    The United States (and other countries) have been disposable economies/societies for a long long time (it certainly hasn't started with Apple sealed-boxes). Thus Apple (and other companies) are adding to the problem (certainly didn't start with Apple).

    No doubt...recycling/reusing/repurposing has come a long long way over the past 20 years...which is a very good thing. Is there more than can be done...sure.

    There are many many many older "Windows boxes" that are not "sealed-box designs"...and they're heading to the junk heap as E-Waste as well. Simply because they are old and obsolete. If the agreed on "average" useful life of the typical personal computer is 5 years (can be many more years in some cases)...then we have will have to see if an Apple sealed box has a shorter lifespan than older Apple non-sealed boxes.

    If the Apple sealed box designs still sell well...the Windows world will soon follow (if they aren't already). Because these sealed-boxes are probably less expensive to manufacture...and every company wants to maximize profits...including companies that manufacture Windows computers.

    The average computer user is not a "computer-geek-nerd-aholic" like many of us are! They buy a "box" (Mac or Windows)...use it for 3-5 years...rarely do upgrades...then they throw it away and get another. For this majority of computer users (Mac or Windows)...the sealed-box designs are probably just as good of a design as non-sealed boxes.

    Personally I do not like the sealed box designs (for multiple reasons). But then again...I probably fall into the "computer-geek-nerd-aholic" category!

    - Nick
    - Too many "beachballs", read this: Beachballs
    - Computer seems slower than it used to? Read this for some slow computer tips: Speedup
    - Almost full hard drive? Some solutions. Out of Space
    - Apple Battery Info. Battery

  8. #23

    pigoo3's Avatar
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    I wanted to mentioned one other thing regarding the lifespan of Apple non-sealed boxes vs. Apple sealed boxes. As we know...the two main things that we used to be able to upgrade were the ram & storage.

    One thing Apple has done (purposefully or not) to elevate the non-upgradeability of ram is...in OS 10.9 (Mavericks)...Apple has come up with the new ways of managing ram.

    As far as storage. With many many things being:

    - Stored/downloadable/redownloadable from iTunes, the Mac App Store, or "The Cloud" in general.
    - Gaming done via sites like Steam.
    - Companies like Adobe having Cloud based apps.

    This certainly puts less emphasis/strain on having massive amounts of hard drive or SSD storage space inside the computer itself.

    Maybe there are ram & storage technologies that are in the "pipeline" that we are not yet aware of. Making non-upgradeable computer designs less restrictive than we think. And what we are currently experiencing is that hardware designs are ahead of these new emerging technologies.

    And hey...we all know that folks store way too much "junk" on their computers (long-term)...that doesn't need to be there. So "smarter" internal storage strategies could become more important.

    All of these things could still prove in the end...that a sealed box design may have just as long a "useful" lifespan as non-sealed boxes.

    - Nick
    - Too many "beachballs", read this: Beachballs
    - Computer seems slower than it used to? Read this for some slow computer tips: Speedup
    - Almost full hard drive? Some solutions. Out of Space
    - Apple Battery Info. Battery

  9. #24

    cwa107's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigoo3 View Post
    I think that we are discussing two things:

    1. The E-waste problem.
    2. Not liking (from a "fun-computing" standpoint) the sealed-box route Apple is currently taking.
    Yes, we are discussing two things, but they go hand-in-hand.

    The United States (and other countries) have been disposable economies/societies for a long long time (it certainly hasn't started with Apple sealed-boxes). Thus Apple (and other companies) are adding to the problem (certainly didn't start with Apple).
    Not at all, but we are A) disposing of things at a more accelerated rate, and B) disposing more of them. When a company like Apple is selling iDevices numbering in the tens of millions of units, and they're deliberately made to not last a long time, that's a trend I want to buck, regardless of the precedent.

    I think Commodore made something like 12.5 million C64s over a span of 12 years. Those machines were relatively unchanged over that production run and yet, were still quite usable (and could be repaired) into the early 90's.

    How many iPad 1s did Apple sell during their one year of production? I've seen numbers that are something like 15 million. And within 18 months, they became obsolete when Apple dropped them from newer OS releases.

    Do you see my point? This is only going to get worse.

    No doubt...recycling/reusing/repurposing has come a long long way over the past 20 years...which is a very good thing. Is there more than can be done...sure.

    There are many many many older "Windows boxes" that are not "sealed-box designs"...and they're heading to the junk heap as E-Waste as well. Simply because they are old and obsolete. If the agreed on "average" useful life of the typical personal computer is 5 years (can be many more years in some cases)...then we have will have to see if an Apple sealed box has a shorter lifespan than older Apple non-sealed boxes.

    If the Apple sealed box designs still sell well...the Windows world will soon follow (if they aren't already). Because these sealed-boxes are probably less expensive to manufacture...and every company wants to maximize profits...including companies that manufacture Windows computers.
    I'm not arguing against this at all - Apple is not at all alone in this. My problem is that they are exacerbating the problem and setting the trend for the industry.

    Imagine if Apple were to redesign the iPad in such a way that you could remove the screen by simply releasing a few hidden screws. Imagine if you could add storage to it by swapping out a card inside of it. How much more useful would that be? With Apple's marketing muscle, how easily could they sell more iPads? Imagine promoting repairability, sustainability and upgradeability as a feature? And what does it cost them in terms of engineering? Next to nothing.

    That would be innovation moving in the right direction.

    The average computer user is not a "computer-geek-nerd-aholic" like many of us are! They buy a "box" (Mac or Windows)...use it for 3-5 years...rarely do upgrades...then they throw it away and get another.

    For this majority of computer users (Mac or Windows)...the sealed-box designs are probably just as good of a design as non-sealed boxes.
    I disagree. I think given the choice between a model that has a lifespan of 3 years and one that has a lifespan of 5 years or more, most consumers would opt for the latter - even at greater cost.

    There's a reason people bought more Hondas than Yugos.
    Liquid and computers don't mix. It might seem simple, but we see an incredible amount of people post here about spills. Keep drinks and other liquids away from your expensive electronics!

    https://youtu.be/KHZ8ek-6ccc

  10. #25

    vansmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwa107 View Post
    I don't mean to sound like a zealot or an environmentalist nut, but I think this is a problem we can solve quite easily - and in turn, reap economic benefits from as well as create jobs.
    I think it's safe to say that being concerned with an obvious and pressing issue doesn't qualify you for "nut job" and if someone says it does, they're just wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by pigoo3 View Post
    I think that we are discussing two things:

    1. The E-waste problem.
    2. Not liking (from a "fun-computing" standpoint) the sealed-box route Apple is currently taking.
    I think the two are very much linked. The harder companies make it to fix issues inside of your machine, the easier it is to conceptualize buying a new one and disposing of the old one.

    Now, I see what you mean - there are two lines of thought going on here.
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  11. #26

    pigoo3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwa107 View Post
    I disagree. I think given the choice between a model that has a lifespan of 3 years and one that has a lifespan of 5 years or more, most consumers would opt for the latter - even at greater cost.
    If we could guarantee that computer "A" will last 3 years...and computer "B" 5 years...I totally agree that most consumers would go with computer "B". Future trends/needs are always hard to predict.

    All I know is...whenever the holidays come around...and I'm visiting relatives (of all ages)...there isn't much talk about upgrading the computers in each household. Let's not even talk about remembering passwords!!!

    This is where I'm saying that many many households with computers don't give a "hoot" about upgradeability (or even understand what that means). So a sealed-box to them may seem no different than a non-sealed box.

    - Nick
    - Too many "beachballs", read this: Beachballs
    - Computer seems slower than it used to? Read this for some slow computer tips: Speedup
    - Almost full hard drive? Some solutions. Out of Space
    - Apple Battery Info. Battery

  12. #27

    dtravis7's Avatar
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    Just a couple of things.

    I do agree pretty much with everything Chris stated in the OP. As a Computer tech and long time computer enthusiast that also goes back to the Commodore and Atari, it's hard not to agree!

    2 points though, The iMacs ARE fixable and upgradeable, even the 21.5" model. Just a tool from iFixit or OWC and you can get in, Change the RAM, Hard drive just like before. Is it harder? Yes and you need Replacement Glue Strips to put it back together. That bugs me but you still can do it.

    The other thing I have noticed is some PC hardware (Mostly Notebooks) is going soldered in RAM also and maybe that strange drive. That troubles me even more as it's my business and potential lost $$$ doing upgrades and repairs.

    Come on Apple, at least give us back the option to upgrade the RAM!! The SSD while proprietary can be changed with one from OWC, but still a pain and limits choice.

  13. #28

    pigoo3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwa107 View Post
    Yes, we are discussing two things, but they go hand-in-hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by vansmith View Post
    I think the two are very much linked. The harder companies make it to fix issues inside of your machine, the easier it is to conceptualize buying a new one and disposing of the old one.
    I agree that these two topics can be linked. But on the other hand...some folks may not care much about e-Waste...and are more concerned about the "less fun" aspect of not being able to upgrade their computers.

    When I'm out running on the roads...and I see all sorts of things tossed from automobiles:

    - beer bottles/cans, soda bottles/cans, beverage bottles/cans
    - fast food restaurant waste (packaging & food)
    - empty cigarette packs
    - old discarded empty cigarette lighters
    - tampon applicators (yes I see lots of these)
    - etc. etc.

    Many of these folks own cell phones, computers, tablets, etc....and they obviously don't have much concern for e-waste...or any other form of waste.

    Just depends on the persons perspective/concerns/priorities.

    - Nick
    - Too many "beachballs", read this: Beachballs
    - Computer seems slower than it used to? Read this for some slow computer tips: Speedup
    - Almost full hard drive? Some solutions. Out of Space
    - Apple Battery Info. Battery

  14. #29

    cwa107's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtravis7 View Post
    Just a couple of things.

    I do agree pretty much with everything Chris stated in the OP. As a Computer tech and long time computer enthusiast that also goes back to the Commodore and Atari, it's hard not to agree!

    2 points though, The iMacs ARE fixable and upgradeable, even the 21.5" model. Just a tool from iFixit or OWC and you can get in, Change the RAM, Hard drive just like before. Is it harder? Yes and you need Replacement Glue Strips to put it back together. That bugs me but you still can do it.

    The other thing I have noticed is some PC hardware (Mostly Notebooks) is going soldered in RAM also and maybe that strange drive. That troubles me even more as it's my business and potential lost $$$ doing upgrades and repairs.

    Come on Apple, at least give us back the option to upgrade the RAM!! The SSD while proprietary can be changed with one from OWC, but still a pain and limits choice.
    In many cases, I'd be satisfied if I could just easily open the case. Just recently, I replaced the front glass/digitizer on my iPad 3. It was a pain to get in there due to all the adhesive. That took nearly 75% of the time.

    While I was in there, I thought a bit about the purpose of the adhesive - and really, there isn't one from a standpoint of technology or structural integrity. All they would have had to do is have two tabs at the top of the screen and two tabs at the bottom. If the bottom half had two screws through the case that met the tabs, it would be just as solid - but you could get in there with little hassle. It wouldn't add any weight, it wouldn't add any thickness.

    Frankly, I think they just did it to discourage the average Joe. I have a very big problem with that.
    Liquid and computers don't mix. It might seem simple, but we see an incredible amount of people post here about spills. Keep drinks and other liquids away from your expensive electronics!

    https://youtu.be/KHZ8ek-6ccc

  15. #30

    MYmacROX's Avatar
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    I'm not doubting the data on e-waste, but I would be surprised to learn that a lot of people throw computers and tablets and mobile phones in the garbage when they upgrade or they become obsolete.I personally have passed on 2 desktops and my first gen iPad to friends and relatives who were fine with the specs and performance of those machines. I wanted to upgrade and I found a home for the older tech. I sold mine and the wife's iPhones when upgraded to the 5. I'm just surprised to hear a lot of people throw this stuff away. I've even taken printers and old mobile phones (flip phone and a BB) to electronic recycling dropoffs.
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