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Running Windows (or anything else) on your Mac Discussion of Classic or running Windows, Linux and other OSes on the Mac.

How good is bootcamp QAULITY wise ?


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fireboarder

 
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Hello All,

I have a question which may be of interest to everyone and I hope that a lot of people will join the discussion because opinions and experience really matter. I like the idea of being able to run both systems on MacBook, however I really question the quality of such setup. I accept the fact that it is possible to install 2 systems and use them, but how "smooth" is this integration ? Ideally speaking we should be able to use Windows (with bootcamp) as if we run it on native wintel platform, but is this really the case ? Are there any compatibility issues, or potential problems which may come up or even in fact real problem which someone may have experienced ? Because after all MAC platform is NOT a native environment for Windows. What are the views on that ?

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Kash

 
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The hardware underlying a Mac is essentially the same as that of any other PC. So when you install Windows on it, it runs exactly how it would on any other PC.

Boot Camp is essentially partitioning software and a bootloader. So when you install Windows, you'll be running it native at 100% the speed of a comparably specced out PC.

Boot Camp offers all the drivers you'll need to run Windows on your Mac, so there really aren't any compatibility issues when it comes to drivers or any external peripherals (those would just use the standard Windows drivers that are either pre-installed or come on a separate disc)


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fireboarder

 
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I accept that, hardware is the same etc, but nevertheless, I can give an example from aple web-site :

quote "Are there any Macintosh features that I should not expect to work when running Windows XP on an Intel-based Macintosh computer?

Even after installling the Macintosh Drivers CD, the Apple Remote Control (IR), Apple Wireless (Bluetooth) keyboard or mouse, Apple USB Modem, MacBook Pro's sudden motion sensor, and MacBook Pro's ambient light sensor will not function correctly when running Windows."

I think this is just 1 example of potential problems, in a sense it is because of these kind of problems the value of Apple notebook is lower vis-a-vis situation where ALL of the features worked, as I expect all of the features I'm PAYING for to perform well.

Of course on the other hand I do realize that Bootcamp as of now is still beta and it will only be implemented fully in Leopard, but nevertheless I think even at this stage it is possible to draw some conclusions. Has anyone experienced any problems which stem directly from the fact that Windows is run (effectivelly) on MAC hardware ? I think quote from FAQ (above) is a perfect example of such problem.
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dtravis7

 
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Kash is 100% correct as always! Bootcamp is nothing more than a Boot-loader like running XP and Linux together on a PC, Partitioning software and drivers. Windows works like it does on a PC. At startup you can hold down Option and select either OSX of Windows. Also you can change the default Boot-up OS inside either OSX or Windows.

PS, If you are purchasing a Mac just to run Windows, don't bother. A Mac is for OSX. That is the only reason to pay that kind of $$$, The OS. If you need Windows for some apps you can't find on OSX, then fine, but don't waste your $$$ if you are not primarily into Windows and not OSX. You can get a Windows machine for less $$$.

The Remote control is for OSX. It's for Front Row and really nothing else.
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Kash

 
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Any "problems" with running Windows on a Mac are not technically problems. View running Windows as an unsupported byproduct of having an Intel architecture.

Apple doesn't care if all of its features run under Windows. Apple only cares for whether all the hardware works in OS X. That's Microsoft's fault for not having the support built in.

You actually CAN use the remote control in Windows (I believe the latest version of Boot Camp added support). Bluetooth works fine, though I'm not sure whether the Apple keyboard and mouse are supported. The Apple USB modem is designed for use with OS X. If you need a modem for Windows, buy one that's designed for Windows. Windows doesn't have support for the sudden motion sensor or the ambient light sensor, so again, that's Microsoft's fault, not Apple's.

If you end up using Windows more than you use OS X, then you bought the wrong computer. Boot Camp was designed for people to be able to use the one or two programs that are Windows only, such as games or a business website that only works under IE. Keep in mind that Boot Camp was released prior to Parallels, so Apple has less incentive than before to really improve the Boot Camp experience. You should just be happy that there is a free option available. If you want a full featured package, get yourself a copy of Parallels.


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fireboarder

 
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I think you made a VERY good point -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kash View Post
Any "problems" with running Windows on a Mac are not technically problems. View running Windows as an unsupported byproduct of having an Intel architecture.

Apple doesn't care if all of its features run under Windows. Apple only cares for whether all the hardware works in OS X. That's Microsoft's fault for not having the support built in.
So at the bottom line we still see mac notebook as MAC, not a universal machine. In fact I love Apple hardware, but do not feel any particular affection for MAC OS. I would want to buy MAC and run Windows on it all the time and at the same time enjoy all the benefits of excellent hardware. Any other thoughts on the subject ? (apart from the ones who think that this approach does not make sense, because MAC OS is soo marvelous - and more: I understand why some people say it, this makes total sense to me, but it is a matter of preference and belive it or not - I like Windows)
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Kash

 
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Have you tried using OS X for longer than a few minutes? Trust me, once you give it a little time, you'll wonder why you hadn't switched sooner.

If you want to use Windows on good hardware, there are plenty of companies out there that offer such services. Dell's higher end laptops are pretty good quality. If you want some really nice hardware, you could check out Falcon Northwest or Voodoo PC. You'll get nice hardware which will work perfectly out of the box with Windows, not to mention the fact that you'll also get manufacturer support


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Brown Study

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fireboarder View Post
Even after installling the Macintosh Drivers CD, the Apple Remote Control (IR), Apple Wireless (Bluetooth) keyboard or mouse, Apple USB Modem, MacBook Pro's sudden motion sensor, and MacBook Pro's ambient light sensor will not function correctly when running Windows."

I think this is just 1 example of potential problems, in a sense it is because of these kind of problems the value of Apple notebook is lower vis-a-vis situation where ALL of the features worked, as I expect all of the features I'm PAYING for to perform well.
Apple states on its site that its "support" of Windows begins and ends with Boot Camp. It wants nothing to do with the Windows OS. Why would it support the competition, especially when it's Windows? It would be a nightmare.

Those features you'd pay for are not part of Boot Camp, which is just a utility. They're engineered for OS X.
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dtravis7

 
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Have you actually sat down and given OSX a chance?

I like Windows XP also (Not Vista) and I was BIG into XP till I sat down and tried OSX. I still use XP as for my work I have to (Fix/Troubleshoot Windows Systems and Networks), but for my own usage I much prefer OSX.

If Apple ditched their OS and made just ANOTHER Windows machine, the Mac would die a fast death. There is no reason to purchase a Mac just to zap OSX and run Windows. OSX and the Mac are made for each other.
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My apple bluetooth keyboard and mighty mouse work great with Windows. I've never tried the remote as I don't use any programs under Windows that would require it and only use it at my desk, so I don't know about low light or keyboard backlight either. Wifi, USB, DVD, all run just fine.

When I use my MBP with Window,s there is nothing that makes me feel like I'm running on anything other than A Windows machine. My Windows use is little and far between. My suggestions is do what I did when I got my MBP: don't even install or use Windows on it for a month or a couple weeks at least. You'll quickly become accustomed to OS X and going back to Windows will at least feel odd, or, like me, just not feel right any more.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kash View Post
Any "problems" with running Windows on a Mac are not technically problems. View running Windows as an unsupported byproduct of having an Intel architecture.

Apple doesn't care if all of its features run under Windows. Apple only cares for whether all the hardware works in OS X. That's Microsoft's fault for not having the support built in.
Well said! I think it's neat that they can run windows, but I don't really care about it and won't waste a MB on my hard disk for M$. I enjoy every minute in OS X :-)
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The Mac is a Mac. It is not portrayed as a universal machine. Well, maybe by some uneducated fanboys, but certainly not by Apple.

Those who've read my posts over the last few months know I love my MBP. In fact, think I'm still infatuated with it and headed into 6 months now. I think (change that, I know) the biggest part of my fascination with it is the OS itself. The reason I say this is you saying "I love Apple hardware".

What hardware is it you love about a Mac. The exterior appearance? Look around, there are a lot of nice looking exteriors to be had. The hard drive? You can get the same hard drives in any machine. The video card? Besides the FX4500 for $1500 in the Mac Pro, every video card available in a Mac is at least 3,4,5,6 cards behind the best available for windows. The RAM? Come on, same as everyone else's. The on board sound card? Don't even get me goin' here. Just try comparing it to the X-Fi. The system board? And it's EFI instead of a BIOS which prevents you from being able to go in and tweak your settings. And, was designed by Intel in order to implement more DRM into our lives. Bottom line, there is not a single piece of hardware inside the Mac that you can't get at least the same piece or one better "designed" to be run in windows.

I think this is the key. You want to run windows full time. You need to invest in hardware "designed" to run windows. Not, hardware designed for OS X.

As a hardware enthusiast, if I hadn't been ready for a change in OS, an Apple would never have been among my considerations. And if you're not ready to make the switch from windows, it shouldn't be a part of yours either (at least imho).

For more on this topic, I suggest you read through this thread. Much more info there.

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I recently set-up bootcamp, and I have to say XP runs better then on my PC. I had no problems whatsoever so far. Nothing more I can say really, except that it works great.

--Once you go mac you never go back!--
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I sympathise with your longing for using great hardware with Windows.

But I have to emphasize that what makes Apple's hardware so great is it's seamless usage with software, a built-in iSight is only worth so much if the OS seamlessly recognises it and turns it on when needed (and off when not).

An Apple remote is good use only thanks to the Front Row software that's so great. The touchpad is only so awesome because OS X has the technology to recognise multi-touch and clicks and scrolling etc.
The built-in WiFi antennas are world-renowned, only because AirPort software makes setting up a network such a breeze.

I can also say that I have seen fantastic hardware on regular laptops recently, and if you do some good research, you will find very Windows-friendly laptops with some great features in them these days. Sony Vaio makes what I think is the Windows counterpart of a Macbook.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr00per View Post
I recently set-up bootcamp, and I have to say XP runs better then on my PC. ...snip...
Well, that really depends on what your old system has in it.
For some actual timed tests, you can check out this thread.

Ran those tests shortly after getting my MBP. And you will see that my now 3 1/2 yr old desktop machine cuts encoding time of my MBP by a full 50%. And at stock speed - from 26 minutes on the MBP to 13 minutes on my XP machine. And even the old 4x burner beats the 6x "Super Drive" by 20%. When I have my desktop overclocked to 3.84Ghz, that 13 minutes is reduced to just under 11 minutes vs the 26 minutes on the MBP.

Bootcamp and Parallels both work great for someone that "wants" OS X, but need to run the occasional windows program. But, if you've no interest in OS X, and want to run Windows as your primary OS, you really should get a Windows machine.

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