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amendolair

 
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The guy who sold me the student/teacher edition at the Apple store literally told me to do that, I really didnt realize it was illegal.
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schweb

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amendolair
The guy who sold me the student/teacher edition at the Apple store literally told me to do that, I really didnt realize it was illegal.
If that's even actually true, then I would report that Apple store and the employee to the Microsoft Piracy division.

Personally to me, that doesn't even sound right I don't care if the guy told you. I think software pirates are scum, but that's just my personal opinion. There are alot of people who put in alot of work to make this stuff and you just rip them off.

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technologist

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schweb
...I think software pirates are scum, but that's just my personal opinion. There are alot of people who put in alot of work to make this stuff and you just rip them off.
I don't know about "scum," but I can't stand people who don't pay for the stuff they use.

If Office is worth the $150 (etc.) to you, then buy it. If you can't afford the $150, don't use it. If you need it, then you need it, and you either find the money or find another pursuit.

As for word processing, there are dozens of ways to do it.

TextEdit (built in)
AppleWorks (Free with eMac, mini, iMac, iBook. $40 education, $80 otherwise)
Pages, part of iWork ($50 education, $80 otherwise)
EasyWord free
Mellel $40
MarinerWrite $50
Nisus Writer Express $60
NeoOffice/J or OpenOffice, Free

If you can get Word, especially at reduced prices, then do so, but if you can't, there's no reason to resort to piracy.
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fco1922
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True, but that is not the point here. There is no suggestion that the OS has been corrupted on numerous systems. The real issue is that the licenses are issued to an individual (at most a 'household' but this is more a concession on the part of the company than a point of law).

Besides, the real point is to be careful what you say on bulletin boards. They are public. Discretion is never misplaced.

I also agree that you shouldn't supported pirated software. Microsoft may be huge but you decide whether to use their products--and just because they are rich and powerful doesn't make it right to effectively steal their stuff. Trading licenses is just another version of pirating--not much different from shoplifting the software from a store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudane
Even that's not correct. If you corrupt your OS, you're well within your right to reinstall the software as many times as you need to. That's been well established as "must" ever sinice Windows was invented

This is saying you can run it for your own use on 3 computers (let's say 1 at home, 1 at uni and 1 laptop). But they must be *your* computers.
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fco1922
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Not surprising--they tell you many wonderful things. I wouldn't fret it but just don't go into such discussions publicly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amendolair
The guy who sold me the student/teacher edition at the Apple store literally told me to do that, I really didnt realize it was illegal.
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Cloudane
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Nobody is going to come round and raid you for *discussing* the concept of piracy, even in the extremely unlikely even they find out your details.

Also I don't think even the RIAA would try to sue you for obviously being genuinely misled. (Software copyright holders tend to go after distributers anyway, not users)

I'm sort of wondering how long it'll take before open source software is made illegal because it does exactly the same thing - it "deprives" companies like Microsoft of their potential income. As a very strong capitalist economy, I'm sure the US would do that if OSS became enough of a threat.
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schweb

 
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There's a huge difference between stealing/theft/piracy and developing your own alternative. Your analogy isn't a very good one. They've created a product that is being stolen. There is a difference between that and competition.

It would be as if ABC just stole all of NBC's shows and put them on as their own instead of developing their own.

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Cloudane
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I can't see the difference. The *only* differentiation I can see is that one is legal, and the other isn't. Free software *is* competition - just ask Bill Gates about Linux and he will tell you so Whether you steal Windows or install Linux, either way the person is depriving Microsoft out of $200 or however much it costs. Just one is legal, the other is not.

If you follow the law without question (say if they made it illegal to post on messageboards...) then great. It's all cut and dry no matter what the government say you should do because you always follow their orders. But morally, how do you tell the difference?

Not trying to justify piracy or owt - just genuinely trying to see the difference.
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schweb

 
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My point is competition is healthy and not illegal. Piracy is illegal and deprives people of their rightly earned money. If they don't earn it because of an inferior product, that's all fair in business. However if they don't earn it because someone steals it, that's not right.

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D3v1L80Y

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudane
Whether you steal Windows or install Linux, either way the person is depriving Microsoft out of $200 or however much it costs. Just one is legal, the other is not.
....just genuinely trying to see the difference.

Here is the difference...(albeit very simplified) MS is not out of any money if you go somewhere else. They still have all of the copies of Windows they made, and can still sell them. You are only "depriving" them of a possible sale, not the product itself...they can still sell it to someone else.
If you steal a copy of Windows, they now have one less copy to sell, hence they lose money.
If the Linux distro is free, then nobody is really losing any money, because none was asked for in the first place. MS is asking to be paid for Windows, so if they are not paid then they lose money.

Even simpler analogy....

You have a dozen apples.
You paid 10 cents each for those apples.
You are selling those apples for 25 cents each, to make a 15 cent profit on each.
If you don't sell any of them, then you are out a total of what you paid...$1.20.
Down the street is an orange tree.
I take an orange from the tree and pay nothing.
Nobody is selling them and nobody expects a profit from them.
This doesn't affect you at all, because while they are both fruit, they are not the same.
You still have your $1.20 worth of apples.
I take an apple from your table without paying for it.
You are not out a total of $1.35, because you now have one less apple to sell and won't get the 15 cent profit you expected and asked for...unless you raise the price on the remaining apples.

This is exactly what happens when people continue to pirate software that is sold for profit. Prices increase and increase.

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Cloudane
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Your argument is completely flawed, as you're talking about depriving a person of a material product.

Quote:
If you steal a copy of Windows, they now have one less copy to sell, hence they lose money.
Yes, if you walk into Walmart and run off with the box. Anyone with a brain knows that that is wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we're talking about downloading a copy. That doesn't derpive anyone of any material item and is therefore IMO the same as using a free alternative. Except for legality and perhaps some morals.
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D3v1L80Y

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudane
Your argument is completely flawed, as you're talking about depriving a person of a material product.



Yes, if you walk into Walmart and run off with the box. Anyone with a brain knows that that is wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we're talking about downloading a copy. That doesn't derpive anyone of any material item and is therefore IMO the same as using a free alternative. Except for legality and perhaps some morals.
How is downloading a pirated copy not depriving a developer of a material product? A stolen copy obtained through a download is still depriving a developer of a copy, as they no longer have the option to sell a copy to that person.
What is flawed here is your perception of the item in question, as you have missed the point of the analogies. Your rationale would imply that as long as you don't steal it form a retail establishment, it is OK. When you create a copy for download, you are in turn stealing from a company because the company can not gain a profit for something they designed, released and expected to be paid for. So a downloaded copy is different from a retail copy how? True, you may not be taking an actual disk that was pressed by MS......but is a downloaded copy somehow not a tangible item? You are still taking the product, sans payment. Just because it is downloaded does not make it not stealing. The more copies that are downloaded, the less that are actually sold, which is the same as taking the copy from the manufacturer, which in turn jacks up the price for the legal copies thus keeping in line with the aforementioned analogies.
It is still stealing ...it is no different than taking it from a store without paying for it. How you obtain it makes no difference...it is still an item that was not paid for, though it should have been.

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And here is another (and final) analogy.

I am a software developer.
I make my software available for download online.
I intend on getting payment for the software, yet I release it as a trial offer.
The app can be used for a limited time, in a basic functionality.
To unlock the software and use it to the full extent, I require a payment for a registration key to be sent to you.
I charge $5.00 for each registration.
Keep in mind, anyone can download it but in order for it to be complete, you must pay for registration.
This is not a 'tangible' item, yet everytime someone other than myself gives out a registration key or creates some hack to generate one, I lose $5.00 for each new person that gains full access to the software without paying me.

The bottom line is, I personally don't care if anyone chooses to pirate software or not. I don't do it. If you do, just don't try to justify it and say it is not theft or that it isn't affecting or hurting anyone by doing it or that it is the same as using a free/open source app.... as you are sadly mistaken if you truly believe that.

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technologist

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudane
I can't see the difference. The *only* differentiation I can see is that one is legal, and the other isn't. Free software *is* competition - just ask Bill Gates about Linux and he will tell you so Whether you steal Windows or install Linux, either way the person is depriving Microsoft out of $200 or however much it costs. Just one is legal, the other is not.

If you follow the law without question (say if they made it illegal to post on messageboards...) then great. It's all cut and dry no matter what the government say you should do because you always follow their orders. But morally, how do you tell the difference?

Not trying to justify piracy or owt - just genuinely trying to see the difference.
It's really simple: you're using someone else's work without their consent.

If you're a designer, is it right if a client uses a proof of your work without paying you?
If you're a student, is it right for someone else to turn in a copy your paper for a grade?
In a work environment, is it right if your boss takes credit for your idea?

In each of the above cases, nobody is physically injured, and no physical objects are taken. That doesn't make everything okay.
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Cloudane
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How is downloading a pirated copy not depriving a developer of a material product?
Okay, it seems that material according to the dictionary definition can mean an idea, so I'll have to admit an incorrect choice of wording. What I meant to say was *tangible*. Take this quote - "I take an apple from your table without paying for it." - that's the part which I was saying is flawed because stealing an apple of someone's table is removing a tangible object and depriving the owner of it. Therefore theft. I'm not saying that taking a copy of software isn't wrong, but it isn't depriving someone of stock. Put simply, it's not 'theft' - it's copyright infringement. It's still wrong, but don't try to make it into something that it isn't.

It's more like, someone comes along with a device that takes the structure of all of the atoms of the apple and can instantly create a clone. The original is still sat there and can still be sold. It'd still be 'wrong' to do so, and I'm sure laws would be put in place to prevent it, but it's still a completely inappropriate analogy.

Quote:
I charge $5.00 for each registration.
Yes, well.. anyone who won't pay $5 for a decent app is truly pathetic. If people rip off your app... all I can say is wow...

But you're arguing with me for the wrong reason. I'm not trying to say that piracy isn't bad or justifying it. Just that developers are using the wrong analogies. Yes in some cases people pirate things even though they could afford them and would buy them if copies weren't available. But I see a lot of developers claiming that every single pirated copy is depriving them of a sale. That's wrong. There are some people who wouldn't buy it no matter what. I saw someone earlier in the thread say that if he couldn't copy Windows then he'd just use Linux... there's your example.
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