05-02-2008, 07:30 AM

Hi everybody,

a question from a newbie and a long time mac-lover:

I use Mail, verison 2.1.3 (753.1/753), OS X. Is there any way I can fix settings in the Mail, so that I can receive delivery notification for outgoing messages?

Edit: That is -- I want to be able to get a receipt for important messages, so I really know that the recipient has received them.

If it is not possible to get receipt in Mail, what free mailing program would you recommend that I use instead?

05-02-2008, 08:13 AM

Delivery notification is a bit of a dead end, which it too bad. As far as I can tell, it completely depends on the clients. Thunderbird will do it but only if the recipient is also using Thunderbird. Exchange servers will too, but that isn't what you are using.

05-02-2008, 01:35 PM

As I understand it, email like their cousins, faxes, are considered legal documents that establish what was said, done, agreed upon, etc. If an email or fax goes unanswered, it is considered that the information contained within it was accurate. In other words, there is a tacit agreement that it was accurate when the recipient doesn't respond to correct it. Dangerous sounding huh?

Anyway, in most corporations, if you fail to reply to emails, you can be reprimanded for it. Therefore, all you need to do is send the email with a request for confirmation. If the user doesn't reply ever, you have a case against him. Of course, flooding people with emails requesting responses could be used against you; however, I'm assuming that the need for confirmation is for particular emails?

Is this answering your underlying question? Was there an underlying question?

05-02-2008, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by ebay

As I understand it, email like their cousins, faxes, are considered legal documents that establish what was said, done, agreed upon, etc. If an email or fax goes unanswered, it is considered that the information contained within it was accurate. In other words, there is a tacit agreement that it was accurate when the recipient doesn't respond to correct it. Dangerous sounding huh?

In what universe do you live?

This is not true of emails or faxes, anywhere. It does sound dangerous, and it would be extremely dangerous, if it were true.

05-02-2008, 10:01 PM

Actually, I no long live in a world where faxes and emails are essential to my life but I've been in and seen first hand how memos and faxes were used to prove negligence with a contractor and a successful memo war at a large corporation where my friend had been wrongfully excluded from a managerial position based on nepotism. These are just a couple of many examples.

What world to you live in? Maybe it's a kinder gentler world that the one of professional software development that I came from.

05-02-2008, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by ebay

Actually, I no long live in a world where faxes and emails are essential to my life but I've been in and seen first hand how memos and faxes were used to prove negligence with a contractor and a successful memo war at a large corporation where my friend had been wrongfully excluded from a managerial position based on nepotism. These are just a couple of many examples.

What world to you live in? Maybe it's a kinder gentler world that the one of professional software development that I came from.

That's one thing. Of course emails and faxes can be used of evidence of this or that.

But it's very different to say

Originally Posted by ebay

If an email or fax goes unanswered, it is considered that the information contained within it was accurate. In other words, there is a tacit agreement that it was accurate when the recipient doesn't respond to correct it. Dangerous sounding huh?

For example, if I sent you a fax that said, "I, technologist, am the legal owner of ebay's property, guardian of his children, and sole executor of his estate," it would mean exactly nothing. You don't have to respond or dispute that at all, since my saying so (whether out loud, in a fax, or in an email) does not make it so.

Now, that could be used as evidence in court that I'm crazy, or as evidence in court that I was trying to meddle in your affairs, but that's not the same thing, either. It can prove things about me, but not about you.

For one thing, for the most part, unless I find a copy in your possession, it's impossible to prove that you received that message. Maybe your mail server was down, or some guy with a backhoe cut your phone line at that time. It's just too unreliable a medium. Serious business is done either in person, or by registered mail (or its FedEx equivalent) where I have your signature to prove that you got it. That doesn't prove that you agreed or accepted what I got, but at least that you got it.

Returning to the original question...there is such a feature as "Return receipt to" which some mail applications support. But not many of them do, so it's generally pretty useless unless you know that your recipient uses one that does.

05-03-2008, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by Sherman Homan

Delivery notification is a bit of a dead end, which it too bad. As far as I can tell, it completely depends on the clients. Thunderbird will do it but only if the recipient is also using Thunderbird. Exchange servers will too, but that isn't what you are using.

Originally Posted by technologist

Returning to the original question...there is such a feature as "Return receipt to" which some mail applications support. But not many of them do, so it's generally pretty useless unless you know that your recipient uses one that does.

Thank you for your answers. I first though that a function like that must exist (and be universal regardless of the app you use), but that I couldn't find it.

So there is no definite solution for my problem. I guess the simplest solution is to ask the recipient to write back to me and confirm that they have received my mail.

I'm university teacher and lately several of my mails have just disappeared, two of which where rather important. It's not like a billion dollar (or krona...) business is going to crash because of it, but it means a lot to me professionally. One of the disappeared mails was a contribution to an anthology. I didn't suspect anything, since people usually don't send confirmations for this kind of communication, at least not over here, and I'll sound a bit paranoid if I ask for it. But better save than sorry.

After some googling I find that Mail.app is known to have problems when delivering attachments to Windows mail app. Maybe I should switch to Thunderbird.

05-04-2008, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by technologist

That's one thing. Of course emails and faxes can be used of evidence of this or that.

But it's very different to say


For example, if I sent you a fax that said, "I, technologist, am the legal owner of ebay's property, guardian of his children, and sole executor of his estate," it would mean exactly nothing. You don't have to respond or dispute that at all, since my saying so (whether out loud, in a fax, or in an email) does not make it so.

Now, that could be used as evidence in court that I'm crazy, or as evidence in court that I was trying to meddle in your affairs, but that's not the same thing, either. It can prove things about me, but not about you.

For one thing, for the most part, unless I find a copy in your possession, it's impossible to prove that you received that message. Maybe your mail server was down, or some guy with a backhoe cut your phone line at that time. It's just too unreliable a medium. Serious business is done either in person, or by registered mail (or its FedEx equivalent) where I have your signature to prove that you got it. That doesn't prove that you agreed or accepted what I got, but at least that you got it.

Returning to the original question...there is such a feature as "Return receipt to" which some mail applications support. But not many of them do, so it's generally pretty useless unless you know that your recipient uses one that does.

I see where I was a little too vague in my explanation. Yes, you would have a hard time proving that you were the executor of my estate since there would be no evidence of us even knowing each other.

The example that woke me up to the power of faxes was when a friend had a relationship with a contractor doing on work on his house and pool. There was already a paper trail of checks, invoices and correspondence. Money was paid up front for materials and the contractor became unavailable. It was pretty clear that he was using that money to finish other jobs for another customer and the schedule started slipping pretty bad. **** sent him several carefully worded faxes that went something like "I just wanted to follow up and say thanks for scheduling the completion of my pool deck patio next week. I hope that the $****.** is enough to cover the materials. If you need more call me. I had to postpone the other contractor coming in since we didn't get it done at the end of last month like we originally talked but I'm able to reschedule him and it will work out fine..."

You get the drift. **** wrote several of these types of conversation-recap faxes and when the contractor flaked again, he took him to small claims court and cleaned his clock. **** walked in with receipts, cancelled checks, copies of these faxes and the other guy came in with nothing. It didn't take long to resolve the issue in his favor. It was a great object lesson for me after having struggled with subcontractors while building my house several years earlier.