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TattooedMac

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeisabeach View Post
Of course they are. I'm just wondering how they plan to pull that off since Android doesn't even support 64-bit architecture yet. I assume it was either in the pipeline for the next release already, or will be prioritized now?
The CEO siad its not going to happen NOW, but it will be coming in the new S5 which i reckon, have just changed their whole outlook on the S5 for a 64Bit CPU. Samsung other articles read, got a BIG kick in the shins, because they just didnt expect Apple to come out with a 64Bit Phone, and Apple has now future proofed themselves even if it cant be fully used now, at least they have done the hard yards for when Gaming/Developing Apps have caught up.

What i find interesting, is with the Xcode 5 Seeds for the last 3 months, no-one has seen anything in there, indicating that we will be working with a 64bit architecture in the iPhone.

On that though, in the Keynote, the Dev of Infinity Blade III said he Ported the whole game over from 32Bit to 64Bit in 2hrs and its backwards compatible as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vansmith View Post
So, marketing? Is there any empirical evidence to back that up? I have to imagine that much of the improvement actually has to do with the newer GPU.
Yea Marketing, BUT its showing what power and what can be achieved with the 64Bit, and i bet companies like 2K, GameLoft, SQUARE ENIX, Phosphor Game Studios LLC and the high end Gaming Companies to move to Top Quality, big MB/GB gaming.

As well from what i know of it, it has a lot to do with Mathematics and the computing power some Developers will be able to make powerful Apps like CAD, 3D Rendering and such as well.

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All of those companies you listed make heavy use of graphics functionality which can be divorced from the architecture of the chip. In other words, it's the GPU, not the CPU. This is not to suggest that the CPU is bad or useless but rather, at this point, rather unneeded. In fact, with only 1GB of memory (what word on the street seems to suggest) and the glut of 32bit devices that will receive priority for many developers for the foreseeable future, I can't imagine that any true potential that comes from having a 64bit processor will be seen anytime soon (for all mobile devices).

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I for one am very excited about the 5S and plan to order at 3am and/or stalk some of my local non-Apple stores for one next Friday. I was really excited about the fingerprint reader security. As a person that uses this to log into my work Thinkpad about 20 times a day, I can appreciate the little bit a time saving and ease it offer. I use my iPhone and SIRI in my car a lot, and having to punch in my passcode while driving is just not a option, so I don't use it. Now I can without having to take my eyes off the road. Plus there is so much potential for use of it beyond simple logon and purchase authorization.

As for the 64-bit architecture, I was happy to hear about that as well. Usually for the "in between" S models they don't get huge jumps in specs. This was a big jump that will make this S model more future-proof. Also, it was something that nobody expected or rumored, so it's nice to know Apple can still pull some surprises. As far as people complaining it's useless, I'm just tired of all the hate talk. People complain Apple is always behind on specs. But then when they launch something like this (or thunderbolt not too long ago) they complain because nothing can make use of it right out of the gate. You can't complain both ways!

As a part-time amateur photographer, I am also excited about the new camera. 8MP is the least of my concerns since I don't usually take photos with my phone that I plan to blow up to 8x10 prints or larger. The larger sensor, better light sensitivity, better flash, and better aperture are much more interesting to me. The ignorant masses that seem to only care about "empees" can whine and joke all they want. I know what really matters when it comes to photo IQ and will enjoy this camera immensely.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeisabeach View Post
Of course they are. I'm just wondering how they plan to pull that off since Android doesn't even support 64-bit architecture yet. I assume it was either in the pipeline for the next release already, or will be prioritized now?

Speaking of which... Samsung has moved on from copying Apple and is now copying Dyson. Yes... they are ripping off vacuum cleaner designs and infringing on Dyson's patents (EDIT: "allegedly", I should say in all fairness).
Dyson sues Samsung for 'cynical rip off' - Telegraph
I think they are also in a battle with their fellow countrymen at LG over 4K tech.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleurya View Post
As far as people complaining it's useless, I'm just tired of all the hate talk. People complain Apple is always behind on specs. But then when they launch something like this (or thunderbolt not too long ago) they complain because nothing can make use of it right out of the gate. You can't complain both ways!
It's not complaining in both cases - these specs are useless and serve no productive purpose now. You're suggesting that criticisms levelled again Apple about the overly pronounced marketing practices for a feature that serves little to no value is one that's unjustified because they are now supposedly in front. Yes, they're first to market with a 64 bit smartphone...that's of no use. This effectively moves progress horizontally instead of propelling them forward until people can make productive use of the features. Second, the criticisms are levelled against Apple because no one can conceptualize its utility. It's very hard to conceive of a phone that needs what a 64 bit processor makes possible that a 32 bit one doesn't for these types of devices. Desktops/notebooks - it makes sense for reasons related to memory usage and mathematical reasons.

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I love Thunderbolt and am not against the 64-bit CPU in the 5s, All I said was RIGHT NOW it's not as big as a deal as some are making of it BUT it will pave the way for the future for sure. Apple is good at that.

Thunderbolt is an amazing interface. I have never hated it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vansmith View Post
It's not complaining in both cases - these specs are useless and serve no productive purpose now. You're suggesting that criticisms levelled again Apple about the overly pronounced marketing practices for a feature that serves little to no value is one that's unjustified because they are now supposedly in front. Yes, they're first to market with a 64 bit smartphone...that's of no use. This effectively moves progress horizontally instead of propelling them forward until people can make productive use of the features. Second, the criticisms are levelled against Apple because no one can conceptualize its utility. It's very hard to conceive of a phone that needs what a 64 bit processor makes possible that a 32 bit one doesn't for these types of devices. Desktops/notebooks - it makes sense for reasons related to memory usage and mathematical reasons.
*sigh* Apple IS in front and ready for the future now. Some apps can benefit now from the 64-bit move. Others will need recompiling (I read of one developer who did it in 2 hours). Saying Apple is premature in bringing 64-bit processing to the iPhone when the apps aren't ready to take advantage of it is like saying Apple was premature in bringing Retina Display because no apps had the graphics for it. Ditto for the gyroscope and any number of other new features. Or the move from PPC to Intel. No one can be ready for non-existant hardware! Here's a good quote from an article with some experts weighing in:

Quote:
Quote from article: Apple's iPhone 5s, the A7 Chip, and That 64-Bit Question - John Paczkowski - Mobile - AllThingsD

But chip experts say that there are some gains to be had even from a 64-bit chip without 4GB of addressable memory.
For one thing, 64-bit integer math will allow the A7 to execute operations much faster than the 32-bit A6. “The fact that the A7 has twice as many processor registers means that more operations can occur without the processor using main memory, which is slower to access,” Carl Howe, VP of research and data sciences at the Yankee Group told AllThingsD. “This means that for some codes, the A7 will be twice as fast (or faster depending on how many memory accesses the original code had) to run code because the processor doesn’t have to use main memory as much.”
But for most, the gains found here will be marginal, said Moor Insights analyst Paul Teich. “Double the register file adds a few percent to performance,” he said. “It’s a deep compiler and runtime VM issue. … So marginal improvements for most apps, at best. Depending on how code is written it can run a little longer without hitting main memory, but it really depends on whether you are writing a computationally intensive app or not.”
Another benefit: ARMv8, the architecture on which the A7 is likely based, has a very efficient instruction set that’s great for resource-intensive applications. As Kevin Krewell, senior analyst at the Linley Group and a senior editor of Microprocessor Report, told AllThingsD, “The ARMv8 instruction set is a clean-slate approach with many improvements. Even without 4GB of RAM, the A7 should make it easier to build larger applications like PC-class games and programs. Apps can now become real desktop-class programs and games.”
The caveat here is that Apple must maintain backward compatibility with legacy 32-bit apps until the 64-bit ecosystem really kicks in. Said Krewell, “The vast majority of programs will still use the 32-bit mode, so the benefits may be slow to come."
I'm reminded of the feature of Ubuntu's phone OS where you can dock your phone and use it as a desktop computer. Apple's move here to 64-bit may be laying the groundwork for just such an option. Some time back, they had patents filed (and awarded?) for docking a smaller device to a monitor and using it as a desktop computer. So at the least, we know they have been considering it.


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I just watched a Hands on use video with the 5s and am very impressed. Very fast, outstanding camera.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vansmith View Post
It's not complaining in both cases - these specs are useless and serve no productive purpose now. You're suggesting that criticisms levelled again Apple about the overly pronounced marketing practices for a feature that serves little to no value is one that's unjustified because they are now supposedly in front. Yes, they're first to market with a 64 bit smartphone...that's of no use. This effectively moves progress horizontally instead of propelling them forward until people can make productive use of the features. Second, the criticisms are levelled against Apple because no one can conceptualize its utility. It's very hard to conceive of a phone that needs what a 64 bit processor makes possible that a 32 bit one doesn't for these types of devices. Desktops/notebooks - it makes sense for reasons related to memory usage and mathematical reasons.
It is clear that its pointless responding to you as you are just hating on everything apple have done with the 5S. I just cant work out why you even visit an apple forum.
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[QUOTE=lifeisabeach;1537005]*sigh* Apple IS in front and ready for the future now. Some apps can benefit now from the 64-bit move. Others will need recompiling (I read of one developer who did it in 2 hours).

Yea the Dev of Infinity Blade III ported it from 32Bit to 64Bit in 2 hrs. Thats all in the Keynote to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeisabeach View Post
Saying Apple is premature in bringing 64-bit processing to the iPhone when the apps aren't ready to take advantage of it is like saying Apple was premature in bringing Retina Display because no apps had the graphics for it. Ditto for the gyroscope and any number of other new features. Or the move from PPC to Intel. No one can be ready for non-existant hardware! Here's a good quote from an article with some experts weighing in:.
+1 and no more needs to be said. My point exactly, and its called future proofing

Quote:
Originally Posted by danny842003 View Post
It is clear that its pointless responding to you as you are just hating on everything apple have done with the 5S. I just cant work out why you even visit an apple forum.
Uh oh . . . . . . Here we go !!!! **stands back a good distance**

@danny have you not noticed that vansmith is a Administrator of these here forums ?? Meaning he has a lot to do with Apple and their products, maybe not iPhone, and he is entitled to his own opinion, which is very much what a forum is all about, debating back and forth?
And i would back my next paycheque that he knows more about CPU, GPU, iOS, and performance of chipsets and what holds a iPhone together more than you and probably 99% of the members here on the forum, so what vansmith has to say, in this topic and many others, its best to stand back, read what he has written and learn something . . . . So before you start having a go at one of the most respected members of this forum, stop, breathe in, think and then write something constructive !!!!

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Well one minute he is moaning that apple didn't bump the specs on the camera. (which would have been specs for specs sake, probably making the camera worse)
The next he is saying the 64 bit side of things is pointless and down for specs sake.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danny842003 View Post
Well one minute he is moaning that apple didn't bump the specs on the camera. (which would have been specs for specs sake, probably making the camera worse)
The next he is saying the 64 bit side of things is pointless and down for specs sake.
No he's not. He's explaining why "some" people are unimpressed with the camera. He doesn't necessarily hold those views himself. I explained this already.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by chas_m View Post
People who say you can't use 64-bit unless you have more than 4GB of RAM are just showing off how little they know about 64-bit processing.
Such as? You'd be producing the first real reason that it's important (aside from what I found this morning which was the technical need for it for the fingerprint scanner).

Quote:
Originally Posted by danny842003 View Post
It is clear that its pointless responding to you as you are just hating on everything apple have done with the 5S. I just cant work out why you even visit an apple forum.
Apple does not make only the iPhone. I'm not going to blindly like everything they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danny842003 View Post
Well one minute he is moaning that apple didn't bump the specs on the camera. (which would have been specs for specs sake, probably making the camera worse)
The next he is saying the 64 bit side of things is pointless and down for specs sake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeisabeach View Post
No he's not. He's explaining why "some" people are unimpressed with the camera. He doesn't necessarily hold those views himself. I explained this already.
Once again, lifeisabeach answers this one for me. For the last time, I was trying to explain what the context was, not what I feel. In fact, I couldn't care less about cameras on phones (I actually skip past these parts in reviews).

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It seems that the camera app, fingerprint scanner, and at least one third party app, Infinity Blade III, already are making use of the 64-bit architecture. Seems like a good start to me for hardware not yet released. I would bet their more intensive core apps like imovie and iPhoto make good use of it as well.

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John Gruber from Daring Fireball has a review up of the 5C and 5S. He has an excellent explanation of why the move from 32-bit to 64-bit made sense and why there are such huge performance boosts.
Daring Fireball: The iPhone 5S and 5C

Quote:
ARMv8, the architecture upon which Apple’s new A7 is designed, is a clean break. ARM’s previous instruction set dated back 20 years. ARM has always been designed for low power consumption, but 20 years ago is forever in this industry. Rather than simply add 64-bit instructions to the old ISA, ARMv8 is a clean break designed for today’s — and the future — world. From an ARM white paper introducing ARMv8:
Fundamental to ARMv8 has to be the new instruction set, known as A64; the encoding of instructions to enable an application to utilize a 64-bit machine. ARM took the decision to introduce 64-bit through a new instruction set rather than extension of an existing instruction set for many good reasons. Most notably, and probably as no surprise, because we could develop a new independent instruction set to execute code in a lower power manner than by adding instructions to the existing instruction set. Of course, for compatibility reasons, we still support the entire ARMv7 machine in the new ARMv8 architecture, but when running 64-bit software, this part of the machine is not being used, and the area of complex legacy it had built up does not need to be active when running in the 64-bit ISA, unlike other architectures where 64-bit extension was simply added to the historical complexity and legacy of their 32-bit mode. The new ISA drew upon the years of experience of building different micro architecture implementations, so again it was defined so that these new processors can be more easily optimized for low power operation — an opportunity not really offered since the first ARMv4 machine that resulted in the now legendary low power ARM7 processors.
What does this mean? It means, for one thing, that the biggest reason for the performance and power consumption improvements going from the A6 to A7 is the switch from the ARMv7 to ARMv8 architectures, not 32- to 64-bit. ARMv8’s improved instruction set alone has resulted in 15-20 percent performance gains while simultaneously using less power, from what I’ve been told by informed sources. And though Apple could have gone to ARMv8 while remaining 32-bit only, it made no sense not to go 64-bit.

There are applications today — imaging, gaming, cryptography, video and photo filters — that will benefit from 64-bit despite the fact that the iPhone 5S has just 1 GB of RAM. It should prove faster overall, even if only slightly, than a hypothetical A7 that had switched to ARMv8 but remained 32-bit only.

But the big win is laying the groundwork for the future. iOS developers should have few problems recompiling their apps for 64-bit. (My Q Branch colleague Brent Simmons on how long it took to get Vesper to compile cleanly for 64-bit: “Just a few minutes.”) Apple’s been through this transition before, with Cocoa on Mac OS X,3 and any iOS developer who didn’t see this transition coming sooner or later simply wasn’t paying attention. Many apps should be native 64-bit binaries soon. By next year, when the A7 works its way down to the mid-range iPhones, most will be. And two years from now, it’s almost certain that all new iOS devices being sold will support 64-bit. It won’t be long until Apple can consider dropping 32-bit support and going 64-bit only. By the time it becomes feasible for iOS devices to have more than 4 GB of RAM, iOS will have already been a native 64-bit platform for several years.
But the big jaw dropper is this:

Quote:
To put that in context, the iPhone 5S beats my 2008 15-inch MacBook Pro by a small measure in the Sunspider benchmark (with the MacBook Pro running the latest Safari 6.1 beta). The iPhone 5S is, in some measures, computationally superior to the top-of-the-line MacBook Pro from just five years ago. In your *bleeeeep* pocket.
ARM-based Macs, in another five years. Ten, tops. Calling it now!


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