08-12-2003, 02:25 AM

http://spl.haxial.com/apple-powermac-G5/

I use PC's so I guess we win again...

08-12-2003, 02:57 AM

Interesting stuff.. He is definitely a PC user which really doesnt mean his benchmarks are wrong, or correct. There is a lot of stats out there that "prove" each arguement. If this guy is right on the money, then oh well.. if he is not.. oh well. Macs have so many things that make them better, in my eyes, that it's not even worth argueing with people which platform is better. Mac X is better for me and that's what matters to me. Mac X is better for a lot of people and that matters to those people. I have used both and Mac comes out way ahead.. again for my needs. I know PC users that are very very close to purchasing a mac because either they have to continually replace their hardware, or the OS screws up, crashes, etc etc.. so many reasons why they are finally getting to the point that they are searching for something better.. or what they perceive as better or something that will fill their needs better then PC's have done. Congratulations that you feel that you have won the platform wars.. and as long as you believe that, Im happy for you.. and as long as we believe that Macs have won it we're happy for ourselves. It used to be clear cut which was better, Macs were better for graphics, PC's for pretty much everything else. PC users have been getting more and more fearful since that line has changed.. and has become more nondescript.. people are not sure which is better anymore and that's why you see PC users, Linux users, coming over to the Mac because they want to see what the hype is all about.. And like a couple people have said. "Once you've gone Mac, you don't go back" There is a reason for that and it's usually because the Mac meets all their needs and for those PC, Linux users that do not go Mac it's because the Mac does not meet their needs. So Im happy that your PC meets your needs.. it does not meet mine, so I will continue to use the Mac regardless of benchmarks even if they are better or worse for macs, it's the user experience that I worry about.

Cheers!

08-12-2003, 04:07 AM

I used OS8 for a while and was appalled and how unable I was to actually USE the computer. I'm glad it's great for Graphics but sadly, That's it. I use Linux to hosting my Counter-Strike Server so I know both aspects of the Operating system wars. I was actually even thinking of buying myself a 12" ibook because of the portability until I actually sat down with one. The price of an apple computer is unheard of in the pc world. The truth is, yes Apple did lie about the performance of the G5 processor. In fact by what you are saying I don't think you even read the entire article. The new opteron processors by AMD are much faster than the G5 and it was announced way before the G5 was. Not only that is also from the article there have been desktop 64-bit processors around for a long time for instance the SPARC processors and the ALPHA processors. The lack of the #1 compatability of apple computers keeps people away from them so get to work on a UNIX WINEX. #2 the ability to run server applications without server software and #3 not a large selection on different typed of processers/ram/harddrives/Video Cards/Cases makes the OSX seem very bland to me. I'm glad that the Macintosh fills your needs but when you need a reliable server or legitament gaming machine. Build a PC.

08-12-2003, 04:28 AM

I agree OS8 was ugly.. real ugly, but at that time even it was more stable then Windows, which really doesnt say much at all. OS X is nothing like OS 8 so there really is no reason to talk about anything before OS X because yes in my opinion any windows computers these days beats classic OS hands down. And no it's pretty easy to get the same price or even more if you try to go for a similar powered OS on PC. Go to Dell's website and create a like system and you will see that most of the time it's more expensive. I buy my system once, my PC friends are constantly replacing their parts.. and have far exceeded the price of my system and they have nowhere near the power. I did read most of the article, but it was concentrating on benchmarks which like i mentioned a couple of times.. benchmarks do not matter to me one way or the other. *shrug*

Now what do you mean the lack of compatibility? Im quite confused on that one.. Are you talking file compatibility? hardware compatibility?

OS X makes a beautiful server without all the viruses, etc etc It has FreeBSD as the core which is the most secure *nix you can get practically. Go ahead and visit any of the virus sites... and take a look and see what platforms they all target.. what servers they target.. etc etc it's all targeted towards pc's and MS server software.

Why do you need a huge selection of hardware when the hardware that comes with it, works the first time?

Reliable server.. see a couple paragraphs above.

Gaming server.. I have no idea on this one and really don't care since I don't play games.

Cheers!

08-12-2003, 05:02 AM

I realize that I am going away from hardware with the things that I am saying. I do not know enough about the technical aspects of hardware to make an arguement one way or the other. If Apple lied, then they lied, if not, then they didnt, it really does not hurt my Mac experience.

My experience comes from the operating system and yes the speed of the computer and the lack of having to reboot all the time. PC users are switching all the time and vice versa just does not seem to happen. There are reasons for that.

Take a gander here:

http://forgetcomputers.com/~jdroz/05.html

There are plenty of links and urls within that page to keep you going for quite some time. Those are the reasons why I enjoy my mac, why I use my mac, why I play with my mac, why I sleep.. wait.. did I say that out loud? The funny thing is that pc users that are so adament about their pc's, in a couple of years or months they decide.. hmm.. Im going to try this mac thing out.. then they become adament about their mac.

Mac has plenty of users and more PC users are switching every day. It's ok that the Mac does not meet your needs. I think we are all ok with that. It does meet our needs though, and hopefully none of us go to PC forums and post about the greatness of Mac's because hopefully all of us have learned that our computer choice is a very personal decision. These are the mac forums, these are people that really enjoy their mac experience, so much so that we have free forums to help others out if they are having problems, or we just discuss our love for our precious Operating System. How do you measure the usefulness, the love, the admiration, the link we have with our Operating system? To PC users, PC's are a tool, to Mac users, it's a way of life.

We are happy and if we are in our own little world and we are fooling ourselves.. let us stay there, we are happy there, and best of all we enjoy it there and enjoy the community there and we could care less if PC users hate us, hate our hardware, or hate our software. Don't use it then we won't mind one bit

Cheers!

08-12-2003, 09:08 AM

To address the server aspect of this....

You, having a *NIX server, should already know the difference between a *NX server and Win2K server. OS X is in fact a fork of the FreeBSD tree, which means, it's a UNIX. So you can just scrub that part out of your argument It will run ANY server daemon that your Linux box will. I have my own Linux box as well, which I've had for over 2 years, so I think that my comments are just.

And now on to the hardware aspect...

I don't think that you will find a lot of Mac hardware "Fanatics" here. Mainly I find we are Mac "Loyalists". We don't bash you on your choice of hardware/OS here. We do make our thoughts heard, but we don't discriminate, and we don't force things on other people. In fact, I myself have discussed OS X on an Intel platform in iChat before.

For the most part, I think the Mac people will agree that the hardware itself isn't really up to par with the rest of the world. But the G5 brings it that much closer. We now have something that is comparable to a P4 in speed and performance. No matter if it beats it or not, or what Apple hypes it up as, or what they knowingly leave out of the reports. Doesn't matter to me. This is a tough market right now, and we could go on and on about what the other big guys do to make a sale. So benchmarks aside, and the whole "looks like Dell beat Apple after all" thing is just bogus. Dell sells the same thing that a billion other merchants out there sell. Apple sells a unique "Experience", which nobody out there can touch.

Sure Apple might have overstated their claim, but I think that the majority of Apple users aren't your typical PC users. I think we are more into getting things accomplished than seeing how many FPS I can get on Unreal. Which isn't a bad stance, but it isn't what I think Mac is all about. And from what I've seen, there are hardware improvements in the Apple line almost every quarter, so we are not far behind.

Now if we were talking about Microsoft here, it would be a whole different ball game

Welcome to the board, by the way.

Oh yeah, one more thing... I am Microsoft/A+ certified, I have 5 Win2K/XP, machines, 1 Linux box, and 1 iMac in my house, and I have been an NT/2000 admin for 3+years, professionally. So I am not a zealot. I am a switcher. Someone that saw the light. I use my Win2K machines very rarely, and mainly just my laptop so I can be the ultimate lazy man, and watch TV and surf at the same time. If any one would like to donate towards a new PowerBook, PM me and I will give you my address where checks are gladly accepted.

EDIT : Yes, I did read that whole article, and there are some interesting thoughts/facts there.

08-12-2003, 10:49 AM

oh man, i think i got a tear in my eye reading all that. i'd post about the benchmarks, but Murlyn and Emrys covered whats really important

08-12-2003, 10:55 AM

Let us take another point off the table, Steve did not lie when he said "the world first 64 bit desktop computer". We all heard what he said. What you didn't hear was consumer desktop computer. We all know about the alpha. Sgi, IBM, Sun all have 64 bit processors on the way before Apple, but how many of can afford a $15000-20000 computer.

Apple has the 64 bit processor for every man, the worlds first consumer 64 bit desktop computer. As you see it is all about point of view.

You you can lay that to rest.

08-12-2003, 03:12 PM

im gonna take what everyone else said and run with it.

1st. Yes. apple made the first personal computer to offer 64bit processors. key word is personal. When the place I work bought alphas in 1996, they paid over $32000 for the machines, hardly what i call personal, especially considering they are a major university spending the money on them.

2nd. You seem to be a bit slow, those benchmarks where published a couple days after WWDC back in June. Apple's vice Chairman in charge of research came out and refuted most of those claims. The wintel machines were given every advantage when it came to trying to beat the G5, just because intel says that something "improves performance" doesnt mean it really does.

3rd. Why do you want variety when what is offered is probably the most stable machines on the market. I have friends who have G4 towers that have run continuously for the past year and a half. Show me one wintel machine that hasnt had to go down for a reboot at least once in the past year and a half. We have orders in for some xserves, one of the professors in the department has had one for a year or more, number of reboots since it was installed, 2 for security patches. There is a reason the U.S. Navy is replacing the servers in its submarines with Xserves, and its not because they are not reliable.

4th. You arent qualified to say anything about linux because you run a game server on a server that runs linux. I have a 55 linux machines that i actively administer, and they are definitely not as stable as you claim and when their time comes up to be replaced im going to get power mac G5s. just because you have used a linux machine doesnt make you an expert on them. I administer these machines and do not consider myself an expert at linux.

I own 2 windows machines, 2 linux machines and a powerbook, i use them for their intended purposes. I also run 55 linux machines at work, as well as help administer an Active Directory (thats windows 2003) which supports over 200 machines in the department. I have a fair look at things, but if you are going to come attack something, have some valid points.

08-12-2003, 03:18 PM

I like you

08-12-2003, 03:50 PM

The funny thing is, in the past Apple hardware was referred to as toys. Now all you hear is I wanting an gaming machine. So are the PCs toys now and Apples are real computers?

08-12-2003, 06:27 PM

hokiethang,

I don't think he was really attacking anybody. I don't want it to seem that we are ANTI-ANYTHING-OTHER-THAN-MAC here. We are not. We support anyone, on any platform they choose to use.

08-12-2003, 06:34 PM

On a side note....

I started my first day at IBM today.

Went into the manufacturing area where they actually make CPU's. Was pretty cool. Saw them testing the waffers.

Off topic, but still kinda cool

08-12-2003, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Emrys

hokiethang,

I don't think he was really attacking anybody. I don't want it to seem that we are ANTI-ANYTHING-OTHER-THAN-MAC here. We are not. We support anyone, on any platform they choose to use.

This seemed like a pretty general attack...

Originally Posted by supaj3w

I use PC's so I guess we win again...

I am not an ANTI-ANYTHING-OTHER-THAN-MAC zealot, I myself use a number of platforms, and the primary one is not a mac (linux for a matter of fact). I wanted to enforce other arguments made earlier. Is there a reason for coming to a mac forum to bash macs? The statement above sounds like a mac bash to me. I will step out of this discussion as my views do not seem welcomed.

08-12-2003, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Emrys

On a side note....

I started my first day at IBM today.

Went into the manufacturing area where they actually make CPU's. Was pretty cool. Saw them testing the waffers.

Off topic, but still kinda cool

I work for IBM Global Services.

Congrats