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Apple Notebooks Apple's notebook computers including MacBook Pro, MacBook, MacBook Air, PowerBook, and iBook.

LCD display issues - Early 2008 MBP Core Duo 2


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Wayne W

 
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Hi all, first time posting here so please forgive any posting protocol mistakes, and let me know if so!

I am having an issue regarding a display repair for my Early 2008 MBP 15" (model # w8840dmxyjy) purchased in Jan '09. I have only had one repair to this machine, and it was 1 year ago for a cracked bezel, which I had a local shop fix using a bezel I purchased online. However, a few weeks ago, the screen went black, so I took it to Apple, who sent it to one of their Apple depots. I received an email from depot saying:

The repair of your Macbook Pro has been placed on hold at the Apple repair center. Our certified Apple repair technicians and a Product Specialist have identified evidence of a non-unauthorized part that has placed the product outside of Apple's warranty coverage... Evidence of a Non-Authorized part has been confirmed. The LCD display screen will need to be replaced with an Apple Authorized display. For your convenience, a picture is attached below.


Sure enough, the picture of the display (see atch) shows what Apple states - that it has a previous-generation LP154WP2(TL)(A1) display instead of the Early-2008 LP154WP2(TL)(A3) display. My guess is the shop inadvertently replaced the original screen with an earlier screen sitting nearby, but nowhere can I find any authoritative source that shows which screens go to which model #. The shop is not going to take responsibility, so unfortunately, I need to gather this info to make my case, in particular, 2 things:
A) some guide matching my model # (w8840dmxyjy) with the correct LCD display # (LP154WP2(TL)(A3)) -- and even better if the guide shows the LP154WP2(TL)(A1) display as not matching my model #
B) an item/part # reference guide - the item/part # for the "wrong" LCD was 646-0365; the item/part # for the now-replaced LCD is 646-0464.

Can anyone help me out??? Any other advice? I've searched the web for a few hours without success, and Apple is not terribly forthcoming on this information because it apparently doesn't endear their retail distributors if I press the issue.
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chscag

 
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The only thing I can suggest is to go to iFixit: The free repair manual and view their take apart instructions which also show part numbers. They also sell parts. Another place you might check with is Mac Repair - Mac Parts and Service for Apple Macbook, iPhone, iPad.
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That wasn't just a mistake.... they would have had to replace the inverter module as well.

Personally, I'd be getting Apple's repair estimate and taking that shop to small claims. My guess is someone upgraded the display on their older model MBP your expense.

Liquid and computers don't mix. It might seem simple, but we see an incredible amount of people post here about spills. Keep drinks and other liquids away from your expensive electronics!
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Wayne W

 
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chscag, thanks for the leads. I have been out there (ifixit.com) this am and searched, but it is not comprehensive enough, it seems. E.g., when I search my model, the part #s don't match the replacement part #s Apple ended up installing. Am I not finding the right portion of the manual or something? Also tried powerbookmedic.com - no success.

cwa107, I was thinking the same thing was quite possible. Repair guy might have thought I'd never know (which I wouldn't have had the screen not failed). Thinking now it will end up in court, unfortunately.
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Wayne W

 
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cwa107 - can I impose on you for one more question? I contacted the repair shop's owner and he told me to pound sand, so I was wondering if I may quote you when I file suit? If so, would you mind sending me your information - name, title, are you a professional Mac guy, basis of your knowledge, etc. If so, I'll send you my email address. Thanks.

WW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne W View Post
cwa107 - can I impose on you for one more question? I contacted the repair shop's owner and he told me to pound sand, so I was wondering if I may quote you when I file suit? If so, would you mind sending me your information - name, title, are you a professional Mac guy, basis of your knowledge, etc. If so, I'll send you my email address. Thanks.

WW
I'll be happy to give you my contact details, but I am not an Apple-certified technician. I do work in the IT industry and have repaired my share of Apple products in addition to laptops and desktops for most every other manufacturer.

With that said, I do have two concerns - for one thing, I haven't seen the machine in-person, so I'm not sure that my statement amounts to a hill of beans to a judge. And secondly, I can't file sworn testimony to authenticate my professional opinion.

But I will tell you that the small claims court system uses the standard of "Preponderance of evidence" in hearing these kinds of cases. So, basically your task is to present sufficient evidence to prove that the repair was negligent. And in turn, the shop has to present sufficient evidence to prove that they were not.

So, if you look at it from the judge's point of view, here's a plaintiff who is not a computer technician that takes a computer to a store for a repair. After it comes back from the repair, it has different parts than what it originally shipped with. This is confirmed by the same company that makes the machine. The defendant would need to produce sufficient evidence to prove that they did use the exact same parts in the repair. Somehow I doubt that shop will be able to do so.

Anyway, if I can be of assistance, please do send me a private message and I'll give you my contact details. But again, although I do hold some certifications, none of them are specific to Apple hardware.

Liquid and computers don't mix. It might seem simple, but we see an incredible amount of people post here about spills. Keep drinks and other liquids away from your expensive electronics!
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Wayne W

 
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Thanks. Seeing your 'STAFF' title on the info section, I was going to use your advice to talk to the inverter module needing to be replaced when the replaced screen is a different model #. Or, alternately, if I can find some documentation online that says the same, that would work. Just not a tech guy so I'm floundering a little.

Your other comment helps a lot. I knew about the preponderance threshold, but didn't know what that meant practically speaking for a judge. Thanks! As mentioned, I didn't discover this switch out until a year later, unfortunately. Turns out, the shop didn't log ANY notes about the repair (their service guy told me so, basically said his techs aren't good about doing so). I also asked Apple depot about whether there is an Apple dbase that authorized shops are supposed to ping when they do repairs, and they said yes. And the shop didn't enter anything.

The Apple rep is willing to do a phone attestation to this, but said their system can't send any email confirmations of the same. I do have their standard "this is an unauthorized product" email that should serve the same purpose.

BTW, where on this forum can I give you some props?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne W View Post
Thanks. Seeing your 'STAFF' title on the info section, I was going to use your advice to talk to the inverter module needing to be replaced when the replaced screen is a different model #. Or, alternately, if I can find some documentation online that says the same, that would work. Just not a tech guy so I'm floundering a little.
Let me see what I can come up with. Just to clarify, an inverter is used to step up power to the backlight that is used in a traditional LCD display. Essentially, a normal LCD display is backlit by a tiny CCFL tube, not unlike the tubes that are used in a fluorescent light.

LED-backlit displays like the one in your early 2008 MacBook Pro don't need an inverter as they use an array of LEDs to provide the same backlight. So, in order to retrofit an older-style display into that model, they would have needed an array of parts - although I suspect that they probably just took the entire lid assembly and swapped it with yours.

And just to clarify my position as "staff"... Mac-Forums.com is independent of Apple. I am a volunteer administrator of the forum, but am not compensated in any way, shape or form for my participation here. I'm just a member who has been promoted up through the ranks over time. I do this because I enjoy helping others. But in my professional life, I do work as an IT professional for a large company.

Quote:
Your other comment helps a lot. I knew about the preponderance threshold, but didn't know what that meant practically speaking for a judge. Thanks! As mentioned, I didn't discover this switch out until a year later, unfortunately. Turns out, the shop didn't log ANY notes about the repair (their service guy told me so, basically said his techs aren't good about doing so). I also asked Apple depot about whether there is an Apple dbase that authorized shops are supposed to ping when they do repairs, and they said yes. And the shop didn't enter anything.
Those are two key points that should win the case. For one, since they have no logs, they don't even know which tech worked on your machine. About the only way they could refute your assertion would be to bring the actual tech that worked on the machine to testify - and even then, it would be his words against yours (and Apple's).

Secondly, if Apple states that an authorized agent needs to log a repair with them and they can't prove that they did so, they're completely hosed. Because in that case, they purported to be an Apple-certified shop, but weren't following the rules to ensure that your repair was authorized. In essence, they misrepresented their service - and that right there is a breech of contract.

In short, they need to present evidence that trumps yours. So, as long as you have a statement from Apple that 1) Authorized shops are supposed to log repairs with them and that they have no record of this repair... and .... 2) The part that is currently installed on the machine is not the original part that shipped with it, you should be good to go. And if they can do a telephone attestation, that might be even better.

But I suspect that you'll file suit and the shop will probably just settle with you right then and there, or they'll end up going to court and looking like the biggest bozos ever.

Quote:
The Apple rep is willing to do a phone attestation to this, but said their system can't send any email confirmations of the same. I do have their standard "this is an unauthorized product" email that should serve the same purpose.

BTW, where on this forum can I give you some props?
No need for props, just trying to help! But I can tell you that it would be very satisfying to hear the outcome of the case - so do be sure to keep us in the loop here.

Liquid and computers don't mix. It might seem simple, but we see an incredible amount of people post here about spills. Keep drinks and other liquids away from your expensive electronics!
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Wayne W

 
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Will do. Least I can do. They do have the rep's name on the ticket, but no other notes besides "Installed customer supplied replacement bezel." When Apple asked, this is when the svc mgr admitted their poor process adherence.

When I do the phone recording w/Apple, anything I should ask the service rep about her role (she did NOT work on it, she's just the customer service rep) besides, name, title, position with Apple and, of course, the questions you posed?

BTW, the owner sent me an effusive, kiss-my-behind letter so he probably will not settle out of court... I'll quote some of the more amusing parts below FYE. He "offered" the bezel install fee ($118), but that doesn't solve the issue of the $635 repair by Apple, so I declined and told him it will be worth it just to meet such a tough guy in person in small claims. His response was not smart not knowing anything about me, say for example, that I am ex-military and don't care for snarky pansies. For your amusement, the beginning and end of his email - this is about 20% of the whole thing:

Let me start by pointing out that slavery has not been legal in this country since 1865, certain nostalgic and delusional dead-enders in The Old Dominion notwithstanding. Therefore, <employee name> does not have an "owner." He has an extremely benevolent (perhaps to a fault) boss, but that aside, he is a man of free will. I must contend that your repeated references to "[his] owner" flummox me. I take it you meant to refer to the owner of <name removed>, LLC -- that individual being the author of this e-mail -- so I shall take the liberty of interpreting your use of the word as such.

You have presented your view of events to Gavin, and on behalf of him and all of us at <name removed>, I appreciate you providing us, in no uncertain terms, your perspective on things. With that said, candidly, not one of us agrees with your version of events, and we find your retelling to be, at best, a mildly entertaining fiction...

... Because there is no court of law -- small claims or otherwise -- to settle personal and professional insults the likes of which you have levied against my staff and our organization as a whole, I do not have available to me the option of threatening you with any sort of action in such a fantastical court of public opinion. And because even a nuisance suit the likes of which you are threatening us with could do lasting damange to us, I say to you quite candidly that I have no choice but to buckle to what I believe are your entirely baseless and insulting threats. For this reason, I will provide you with whatever financial compensation you deem appropriate (up to and not exceeding the amount we billed you), though I must emphatically state that I am doing so under protest and duress. In exchange, you will agree to the following:

(a) you will send us no more amateurish polemics about how you believe we have mistreated you;
(b) you shall not write any negative reviews in any public forum, whether on the Internet, to the BBB, or any other public forum (I do not consider one-on-one conversations or word of mouth to be public, for the purposes of this e-mail, and you may engage in those to your heart's delight, to the extent that you possess said organ);
(c) you will never return to any <name removed> location for any purpose whatsoever (I assume you already have no intention to do so, but I want to make sure it's spelled out clearly), and never to attempt to engage in any business transactions with <name removed>, LLC in perpetuity, whether directly or through representatives or confederates;
(d) after this matter is settled, you will never again contact any employee of <name removed>, LLC -- myself included -- either by telephone, e-mail, text message, personal contact (aside from accidental meetings), postal mail, smoke signal, carrier pigeon, drum circle, or otherwise, aside from any immediately necessary communications required to facilitate delivery of the final payment to you; and, of course,
(e) you agree to not take any legal action against us on this matter.
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Wayne W

 
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Weird. The previous note didn't seem to appear, so I tried to reduce the size by cutting out his letter. Anyway, you get the picture of what I'm dealing with.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne W View Post
Will do. Least I can do. They do have the rep's name on the ticket, but no other notes besides "Installed customer supplied replacement bezel." When Apple asked, this is when the svc mgr admitted their poor process adherence.

When I do the phone recording w/Apple, anything I should ask the service rep about her role (she did NOT work on it, she's just the customer service rep) besides, name, title, position with Apple and, of course, the questions you posed?
I would ask them to clarify the requirements of an Apple-certified repair center. Specifically, make sure that they point out that any repair needs to be logged with them. This is crucial because it unequivocally defines the negligence of the shop if they can't prove that they logged the repair. That right there should at a minimum ensure that you are refunded for their repair.

Secondly, they need to clarify exactly how they identified the incorrect part that they found to be installed and exactly why it was incorrect for that model.

Additionally, it would be helpful if the rep could state for the record that they are representing Apple as an employee and ask them to spell out the problem and what the suggested remedy is and also all of the costs involved to make you "whole".

Quote:
BTW, the owner sent me an effusive, kiss-my-behind letter so he probably will not settle out of court... I'll quote some of the more amusing parts below FYE. He "offered" the bezel install fee ($118), but that doesn't solve the issue of the $635 repair by Apple, so I declined and told him it will be worth it just to meet such a tough guy in person in small claims. His response was not smart not knowing anything about me, say for example, that I am ex-military and don't care for snarky pansies. For your amusement, the beginning and end of his email - this is about 20% of the whole thing:

Let me start by pointing out that slavery has not been legal in this country since 1865, certain nostalgic and delusional dead-enders in The Old Dominion notwithstanding. Therefore, <the employee> does not have an "owner." He has an extremely benevolent (perhaps to a fault) boss, but that aside, he is a man of free will. I must contend that your repeated references to "[his] owner" flummox me. I take it you meant to refer to the owner of <name removed>, LLC -- that individual being the author of this e-mail -- so I shall take the liberty of interpreting your use of the word as such.

You have presented your view of events to Gavin, and on behalf of him and all of us at <name removed>, I appreciate you providing us, in no uncertain terms, your perspective on things. With that said, candidly, not one of us agrees with your version of events, and we find your retelling to be, at best, a mildly entertaining fiction...

... Because there is no court of law -- small claims or otherwise -- to settle personal and professional insults the likes of which you have levied against my staff and our organization as a whole, I do not have available to me the option of threatening you with any sort of action in such a fantastical court of public opinion. And because even a nuisance suit the likes of which you are threatening us with could do lasting damange to us, I say to you quite candidly that I have no choice but to buckle to what I believe are your entirely baseless and insulting threats. For this reason, I will provide you with whatever financial compensation you deem appropriate (up to and not exceeding the amount we billed you), though I must emphatically state that I am doing so under protest and duress. In exchange, you will agree to the following:

(a) you will send us no more amateurish polemics about how you believe we have mistreated you;
(b) you shall not write any negative reviews in any public forum, whether on the Internet, to the BBB, or any other public forum (I do not consider one-on-one conversations or word of mouth to be public, for the purposes of this e-mail, and you may engage in those to your heart's delight, to the extent that you possess said organ);
(c) you will never return to any <name removed> location for any purpose whatsoever (I assume you already have no intention to do so, but I want to make sure it's spelled out clearly), and never to attempt to engage in any business transactions with <name removed>, LLC in perpetuity, whether directly or through representatives or confederates;
(d) after this matter is settled, you will never again contact any employee of <name removed>, LLC -- myself included -- either by telephone, e-mail, text message, personal contact (aside from accidental meetings), postal mail, smoke signal, carrier pigeon, drum circle, or otherwise, aside from any immediately necessary communications required to facilitate delivery of the final payment to you; and, of course,
(e) you agree to not take any legal action against us on this matter.
Wow, that was really unprofessional and gives me a clear understanding of exactly the caliber of repair shop you're dealing with here.

Liquid and computers don't mix. It might seem simple, but we see an incredible amount of people post here about spills. Keep drinks and other liquids away from your expensive electronics!
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Wayne W

 
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Thanks. Appreciate the advice and will let you know what happens!
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Well guess what Chris.... I just found out on my recorded phone call with Apple that the shop is not showing on their system as an Authorized Service Provider (as shown on their invoice), but merely as having an Apple Specialist in house.

That means, according to the Apple rep provided info, they are misrepresenting themselves to the public. Also explains potentially why they were not entering any information on my repair into the Apple db. This is going to be fun.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne W View Post
Well guess what Chris.... I just found out on my recorded phone call with Apple that the shop is not showing on their system as an Authorized Service Provider (as shown on their invoice), but merely as having an Apple Specialist in house.

That means, according to the Apple rep provided info, they are misrepresenting themselves to the public. Also explains potentially why they were not entering any information on my repair into the Apple db. This is going to be fun.
Now that is really interesting. So it goes beyond just a breech of procedure... they're completely misrepresenting themselves. To me, that goes beyond simple negligence and is more like fraud.

Liquid and computers don't mix. It might seem simple, but we see an incredible amount of people post here about spills. Keep drinks and other liquids away from your expensive electronics!
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Hi Chris, just wanted to close the loop on the court case today. I won in no small part due to your counsel thanks a ton!

The judge found the preponderance of evidence on my side, and gave me the decision. Not too surprisingly, the shop's owner had found our thread on this forum and inconsequentially quoted you (DV, if you're still listening in, please say "hi") during the case, the "hill of beans" part anyway. The amusing aspect is that he thought that quoting you would be the core of my case. Had no real strategy, couldn't dispute the facts and went down the wrong chessboard to boot.

The tech manager seemed like a decent guy who had his hands tied by an owner who obviously spent too much time in journalism school parsing words instead of considering what it means to internalize integrity. The tech who worked on it has now left to work elsewhere, though the owner had so strongly defended the tech's professionalism in his email would love to see why he left. He also tried a few technicalities (e.g., claimed I possibly wasn't the original owner) but the judge saw through it, suggesting perhaps the tech had a little side business in Mac displays, and agreed with my logic chain.

We all even got to ride the elevator down together silently. I considered waiting for the next one, but that would have lacked temerity. He was intelligent enough to not make any insulting comments or aggressive movements during the 5 second ride. Ironic part is that had he originally offered to split the cost with me, instead of condescending and trying to be clever, I would have taken it as a sign of good faith, accepted and avoided the time and effort to settle this.

Still considering whether to contact the BBB or post some reviews now that I have the decision in hand. He showed zero accountability but was not obnoxious like before, though that might have been because we were face to face. No possibility of legal worries because I'd be 100% accurate, and truth is always a defense. There is an ethical tension here for me, aside from my distaste for snarky pansies. The "failure to warn" is an ethical omission to the larger community, but were I to do so, my motive would need to be right. If you have any input on how valuable you find web reviews of local computer shops, would love to hear it.

Thanks again.
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