10-20-2008, 04:10 AM

Now before we go nuts (being a Mac forum an all) let me explain. I'm a Mac user, and the occasional PC user. I'm a designer and I use my powerbook for pretty much everything, even gaming.

With the new MacBook Pro's out, I'm seriously considering upgrading. My PowerBook has been good to me but I would to run the newer graphic programs.

Now my partner is a PC freak, being a typical IT professional (I hate Windows but I won't use anything else...go figure) is chunking a tanty (I'm Aussie so basically means chucking a tantrum) about me paying over that much money for a Mac when I can purchase a PC (Alienware or something or rather) with the same specs for the same amount install OS X and it be cheaper.

Personally, I hate Winblows. I've had my PowerBook for the last four going on five years and have had to rebuild once because my hard drive failed. I've had very little issues and I love how I don't have to worry about my Mac. So I will be getting my Mac.

More to the point, anyone here have any thing that I can trump his stupid PC arguement. I'm not well versed on hardware specs and all I know is it works, doesn't break and it easy to use. So I would like to throw some arguement back at him.

I hope this made sense.

Thanks guys!

10-20-2008, 04:28 AM

If you like OSX, stick with a Mac. There is no legal way to install OSX on a PC, Alienware, Dell or anything not made by Apple. Even if you wanted to break the law, OSX only works on a very narrow range of hardware, so you would be taking a chance of some things not even working.

We do not allow any talk here at Mac Forums of installing OSX on Non Apple Hardware just for a heads up. To me what makes a Mac great is the OS, OSX. I love OSX so I use Macs.

Sure you can get a Alienware or even cheaper a Dell, but you will be stuck with Windows and if you love OSX, you will probably not be happy and if you install OSX like I said, it's against the EULA of Apple and might not even work correctly on you hardware.

10-20-2008, 04:38 AM

If you want to use Mac OS X, the alternatives are pretty clear right?

A few years ago specs was the 1st priority when i was going to buy computer hardware. But after a few years with the Mac it isnt so important anymore. It is all about the software and what you can do with it that counts. For me at least.

And if you do something "illegal", it could be hard to get support when something suddenly doesnt work. Maybe it is worth giving those extra $ to get something that actually work.

10-21-2008, 08:29 AM

How is it illegal to purchase a copy of OSX OEM?
If you own a copy of the license then install that legal copy onto whatever random hardware you deem fit then what is illegal about this? Please support with evidence is what I'm asking here. I understand support directly from mac may be an issue given random hardware as they do not encourage (largely different from illegal, I am in australia btw so we observe copyright) but this is of little consequence for myself and my wife in this case as I am most certainly going to deal with any issues. Drivers aren't likely to be much of an issue given the POSIX community out there (I'm sure everything will be ported from SCSI anyways.. > )

So in this case, as I understand it may not be popular but this is not relevant. But in this case, If I were to take my legally owned license and installed the software onto whatever I chose, a quad core xeon for instance with 16gb of RAM.. It's in theory not a server so some limits would be imposed by Macintosh on the client variant in much the same way Microsoft do with their own client.. simultaneous connections spring to mind which would be difficult to change in some ways but would be an example of violating licensing (this is actually a grey area, it would void warranties but not be illegal as such), hence a modification I would not attempt to make.

Essentially my wife cannot discern the difference between the OSX software and the overpriced sub standard hardware it tends to run on (I'm realising this is popularized by mac) and any other hardware which is just as capable of running this quite literally awsome GUI on a BSD Unix variant. I love the operating system, it really is quite a good piece of development and I do not wish to short change Macintosh for their work, I will pay for a legally licensed operating system I just don't want to handicap it with lower spec hw. For the price tag I could easily supply my Graphic designer wife with a machine running SLI or crossfire video cards on a large amount of available RAM with a higher spec quad core chip. Basically I want to give her the ability to work on this system without having to wait for the hardware to catch up.

Please advise your thoughts on the subject as this will help me to make her understand the difference.

10-21-2008, 08:41 AM

Apple's EULA forbids installing OS X on anything except an Apple computer ... period. Apple is both a hardware company and a software company, and they jealously guard both sides of their business.

Here's the thing. If you want to experience an operating system that is similar to OS X but don't like Apple hardware, you can install BSD or Linux on a PC and you won't be bothered by violating a EULA. Of course neither BSD nor Linux is exactly like OS X, but they're much closer to OS X than Windows.

10-21-2008, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by scheris

How is it illegal to purchase a copy of OSX OEM?

There is no such thing as an OEM copy of OS X. It is only sold as retail or with a new system - and it's not illegal to purchase it.

If you own a copy of the license then install that legal copy onto whatever random hardware you deem fit then what is illegal about this? Please support with evidence is what I'm asking here. I understand support directly from mac may be an issue given random hardware as they do not encourage (largely different from illegal, I am in australia btw so we observe copyright) but this is of little consequence for myself and my wife in this case as I am most certainly going to deal with any issues. Drivers aren't likely to be much of an issue given the POSIX community out there (I'm sure everything will be ported from SCSI anyways.. > )

Apple's End User License Agreement (EULA) that you are forced to acknowledge as part of running OS X, specifically forbids the installation of OS X on non-Apple hardware. Additionally, the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, which was signed into US law about 8 years ago, forbids reverse engineering/breaking of encryption or any other activity used to thwart protections built into software.

So, in short, it is illegal to install OS X on non-Apple hardware. And since we don't permit discussion of illegal activity on this forum, dtravis7 was just giving you a head's up.

So in this case, as I understand it may not be popular but this is not relevant. But in this case, If I were to take my legally owned license and installed the software onto whatever I chose, a quad core xeon for instance with 16gb of RAM.. It's in theory not a server so some limits would be imposed by Macintosh on the client variant in much the same way Microsoft do with their own client.. simultaneous connections spring to mind which would be difficult to change in some ways but would be an example of violating licensing (this is actually a grey area, it would void warranties but not be illegal as such), hence a modification I would not attempt to make.

Essentially my wife cannot discern the difference between the OSX software and the overpriced sub standard hardware it tends to run on (I'm realising this is popularized by mac) and any other hardware which is just as capable of running this quite literally awsome GUI on a BSD Unix variant. I love the operating system, it really is quite a good piece of development and I do not wish to short change Macintosh for their work, I will pay for a legally licensed operating system I just don't want to handicap it with lower spec hw. For the price tag I could easily supply my Graphic designer wife with a machine running SLI or crossfire video cards on a large amount of available RAM with a higher spec quad core chip. Basically I want to give her the ability to work on this system without having to wait for the hardware to catch up.

Please advise your thoughts on the subject as this will help me to make her understand the difference.

Just FYI, SLI and Crossfire are not supported in OS X. Of course, you could always install Windows via Boot Camp if you intend to run games.

Back to the topic at hand... Apple likes the concept of vertical integration. They want to be able to control the entire user experience, from the hardware to the Operating System. And to some extent, this tight control yields significant advances in overall user experience and stability. Since Steve Jobs cut off licensing of Mac OS to third parties when he returned to Apple in the mid-90s, I think it's pretty clear that they intend to stick to this path.

10-21-2008, 08:49 AM

Last week before I ordered my new mbp, I went to alienware, dell, and lenovo and priced laptops with the same specs as the mbp that I ordered. I know everybody claims the "Apple tax" makes Apple equipment so much more than a comparable computer from another company but here is what I found.

At Alienware, I looked at about the same laptop with the same specs as I got 2.53, 4gig 1066, 250 7200rpm drive. The alienware was about $300 more than the mbp.

At dell, for there high end latitude, with the same specs, was roughly the same cost of the mbp that I used.

Apple uses good hardware, and the prices they charge are very close in-line with like laptops. I don't understand how people can compare a cheap computer to an Apple and say how much cheaper/better it is. Everytime I have ordered a new Apple computer, I have checked on the equivalent in a pc and the Apple has always been cheaper, or the same price.

10-21-2008, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Bubbaman

Last week before I ordered my new mbp, I went to alienware, dell, and lenovo and priced laptops with the same specs as the mbp that I ordered. I know everybody claims the "Apple tax" makes Apple equipment so much more than a comparable computer from another company but here is what I found.

At Alienware, I looked at about the same laptop with the same specs as I got 2.53, 4gig 1066, 250 7200rpm drive. The alienware was about $300 more than the mbp.

At dell, for there high end latitude, with the same specs, was roughly the same cost of the mbp that I used.

Apple uses good hardware, and the prices they charge are very close in-line with like laptops. I don't understand how people can compare a cheap computer to an Apple and say how much cheaper/better it is. Everytime I have ordered a new Apple computer, I have checked on the equivalent in a pc and the Apple has always been cheaper, or the same price.

That's odd. I can configure a Dell XPS M1530 identically to a low-end 15" MacBook Pro for about $400 less.

10-21-2008, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by scheris

Now before we go nuts (being a Mac forum an all) let me explain. I'm a Mac user, and the occasional PC user. I'm a designer and I use my powerbook for pretty much everything, even gaming.

With the new MacBook Pro's out, I'm seriously considering upgrading. My PowerBook has been good to me but I would to run the newer graphic programs.

Now my partner is a PC freak, being a typical IT professional (I hate Windows but I won't use anything else...go figure) is chunking a tanty (I'm Aussie so basically means chucking a tantrum) about me paying over that much money for a Mac when I can purchase a PC (Alienware or something or rather) with the same specs for the same amount install OS X and it be cheaper.

Personally, I hate Winblows. I've had my PowerBook for the last four going on five years and have had to rebuild once because my hard drive failed. I've had very little issues and I love how I don't have to worry about my Mac. So I will be getting my Mac.

More to the point, anyone here have any thing that I can trump his stupid PC arguement. I'm not well versed on hardware specs and all I know is it works, doesn't break and it easy to use. So I would like to throw some arguement back at him.

I hope this made sense.

Thanks guys!

I am a IT Professional but if it was up to me I would buy a Mac.

Alienware is over priced.

10-21-2008, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by bad.heron

I am a IT Professional but if it was up to me I would buy a Mac.

Alienware is over priced.

Same here, and agreed.

10-21-2008, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by cwa107

That's odd. I can configure a Dell XPS M1530 identically to a low-end 15" MacBook Pro for about $400 less.

The xps m1530 cannot be configured the same as a mbp. 667mhz ddr2 ram and a smaller (and only one) graphics cards, plus cheaper build quality are not comparable.

The Precision m6400 series is the only series that Dell has with equivalent specs except they have a 17" screen, the 15" doesn't offer as good of hardware as the apple mbp. Configured the same it comes to $3092. I went by Vista Ultimate, same proc, ram, hd, wireless n, bluetooth, etc. Boy is it thick and heavy.

The Alienware m15x is also close to the same specs for $2949. You can even get a skullcap design on the lid

10-21-2008, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Bubbaman

The xps m1530 cannot be configured the same as a mbp. 667mhz ddr2 ram and a smaller (and only one) graphics cards, plus cheaper build quality are not comparable.

You're right. I'm comparing it to the older, outgoing MacBook Pro model (early 2008). The build quality issues you referred to are subjective. I can tell you from experience that they're a heck of a lot easier to service and are pretty well put together, albeit out of plastic instead of aluminum. Frankly, I could care less what materials the machine is made out of, as long as it's durable.

10-21-2008, 12:14 PM

It's either mac or PC....

10-21-2008, 12:53 PM

I had been using PC since 1999. I made my switch to Mac last year with a 17" MBP. Now I have a G4 and a 15" MBP and I have to say that the G4, 17" and 15" run circles around my previous laptop (Sony Vaio C2D 2ghz, 2GB RAM, 200GB HD, 128MB Video Card, 17" HD).

I'm very pleased I made the switch to Mac.

I've had a 2 custom PC's, 2 HP's, 1 Dell and 1 Sony and I have to say Mac still takes the cake.

My Dell I bought brand new in 2005 and after maybe 4 months of usage (surfing web, MS Office use) it started to run like it was years old even after doing all the suggested maintenance. The HP's, don't even get me started, same with the custom PC's. The Sony Vaio laptop wasn't that bad but after a year 1/2 it started to perform under what I considered to be good.

10-29-2008, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by bad.heron

I am a IT Professional but if it was up to me I would buy a Mac.

Alienware is over priced.

QFT. Exact same here. I am a Windows Administrator and I use a Mac and recommend a Mac to anyone who will listen. It has been one of the best Windows Laptops I have ever owned! And the added benefit of being able to run OSX! Well that is just the cat's meow for me.

I tried to run OSX on my Dell 9400. It never did work even remotely well.