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Apple Desktops Discussion of Apple's desktop machines including Mac Pro, iMac, Power Mac, and mini

Upgrading hard drive...Boot IDE or SCSI?


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lokerd
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Hello. I just got in an 80gb with 8mb cache, 7200 rpm IDE drive for a G3 Server (Blue and White).

Tomorrow I will be upgrading it to OS 10 and OS 10 Server. I have just installed the 80gb drive in the chasis. The system is currently on the 9 gb SCSI drive that came with the computer. I think it is a Quantum Viking II 9.1 WLS.

I have a couple of questions I am hoping somebody can help with.

1) Should I still leave the SCSI drive as the boot drive? The main goal is access time as students save to the server. Will the new 7200 IDE drive with 8mb cache be faster than the older SCSI drive or not?

2) Should I definately reformat the SCSI drive before installing the new system?

3) I have another IDE drive that apparently is bad, but it could be that I just don't have any current utulities that work with IDE as all of my stuff is. It is a 20gb and I would like to recover it if possible, but the Mac DriveSetup was not able to initialize it, and disk first aid could not fix it. Does it sound like the drive is really dead, or is there a utility that might be able to fix it?

Thanks!
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goodolebwinches
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FIRST AND FOREMOST, MY COMMENTS ARE NOT MEANT TO INSULT OR OFFEND. I AM CONFUSED. I MUST ASK YOU QUESTIONS. I MUST OFFER ADVICE.

First, let's jump straight to question three:

3.) "I have another IDE drive that apparently is bad, but it could be that I just don't have any current utilities that work with IDE as all of my stuff is."(So, you have an apparently bad hard drive. Utilities aren't current with IDE, but you state that all your stuff is? Do you mean software utilities? Hell, all you need is a disk that will boot in your CD-ROM drive...your OS X install disk for example has the utilities to check the drive. It truthfully probably isn't bad, but just needs to be erased and reformatted. Try erasing it with the OS install disk.)

1.) Is the SCSI drive running through a PCI card interface of somekind? The answer to your question is, in my opinion, yes...the IDE/ATA drive that is 80gb/7200rpm/8mb cache will be faster than the old SCSI. Provided that the IDE/ATA interface isn't going through somekind of PCI card, and is going directly through the IDE/ATA motherboard cables.

2.) "Should, I definately reformat the SCSI drive?" Why would you want to do that? I don't understand what kind of set-up you are running. Doesn't the BLUE & WHITE G3 have an IDE/ATA interface?

YOUR MACHINE'S CONFIQURATION IS CONFUSING AS SH*T TO ME! YOU DON'T HAVE TO FOLLOW MY ADVICE, BUT...................

HERE IS MY ADVICE FOR YOU SYSTEM:

1.) Disconnect the interface and power to the SCSI drive in the G3. Don't worry the information on it is safe. We are going to start from scratch with our new OS 10, and then later install all the info from the original SCSI drive.
2.) Install the 80GB using the IDE/ATA interface with the jumper set to MASTER.
3.) Turn the system on to use the eject switch in the CD-ROM to open the tray.
4.) Insert the OS X disk into the CD ROM tray and restart system.
5.) The system should bood from the CD this time.
6.) When you are prompted to format/partition the drive, make 2 paritions. One partition for OS X with "MAC STANDARD OS" selected, and one partition for your SCSI drive info under "MAC OS EXTENDED". For now I would name your partitions OS X and SCSI, so as to not get them mixed up. I'm assuming your SCSI drive was used for data that you shared across a network. You can make the partition for the SCSI as large as you'd like, since it was only 9GB...why not make it just a little larger...say 15GB.
7.)Install OS X on the parition titled OS X. You'll have to name your computer and all that. Write that stuff down, since you are using it as a server.
8.) Go ahead and update the software completely for OS X, before you reconnect the SCSI drive.
9.) Power down your system, and open it back up.
10.) Reconnect the SCSI drive, but make sure its' jumpers are set to SLAVE.
11.) Start up the machine and the drive will appear in your desktop.
12.) Click on your SCSI drive to open its' contents, and click on the SCSI PARTITION to open its' contents which should be empty.
13.) Highlight all the SCSI drives contents and drag them over to the empty SCSI PARTITON.
14.) Should take a few minutes to copy everything.
15.) Once done with copying the SCSI's drives contents over to the new 80gb hard drive SCSI PARTITION...shut down the system and completely remove the original SCSI drive and place it in safe storage.
16.) You should still be able to boot from the SCSI PARTITION, because it has a system folder of its' own.
17.) At this point in time you may want to install that 20gb drive as a slave. Set the jumpers to SLAVE and install it. The drive may not appear in your desktop. Go to "GO" in the top finder menu, click "APPLICATIONS", click 'UTILITIES", click "DISK UTILITIES", select the 20GB disk, erase it, format it as "MAC OS EXTENDED", and name the drive. The drive should now be available for extra storage....unless there really was a problem with it. I only recommend having two hard drives in the Blue & White G3, as its' power supply is only 200W.
18.) The other computers on the network should be able to accesss the machine with whatever name you gave the machine in OS 10.
19.) DONE.
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lokerd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodolebwinches
3.)It truthfully probably isn't bad, but just needs to be erased and reformatted. Try erasing it with the OS install disk.)

1.) Is the SCSI drive running through a PCI card interface of somekind?

2.) "Should, I definately reformat the SCSI drive?"

HERE IS MY ADVICE FOR YOU SYSTEM:
6.) When you are prompted to format/partition the drive, make 2 paritions. One partition for OS X with "MAC STANDARD OS" selected, and one partition for your SCSI drive info under "MAC OS EXTENDED".

I'm assuming your SCSI drive was used for data that you shared across a network.

10.) Reconnect the SCSI drive, but make sure its' jumpers are set to SLAVE.

...shut down the system and completely remove the original SCSI drive and place it in safe storage.

17.) At this point in time you may want to install that 20gb drive as a slave. Set the jumpers to SLAVE and install it. The drive may not appear in your desktop. Go to "GO" in the top finder menu, click "APPLICATIONS", click 'UTILITIES", click "DISK UTILITIES", select the 20GB disk, erase it, format it as "MAC OS EXTENDED",
Hey, thanks for the wonderful reply. Sorry to be so confusing. I have a couple more questions...and a few answers for you.

3) I tried everything. It was first in an older computer (5200). It was already a replacement drive for that computer. I was not able to get it to format or anything in that older computer. I thought I might be able to get it to work in the G3 and was needing the extra storage. But I wasn't able to get it to work there either. The utlities I am referring to is a Zip disk full of disk utlities from when I used to be all Mac from back around 1997...so pretty dated. But even the new disk utilities from Apple would not format or fix it...so I am pretty sure it is dead. I got the drive replaced (not under warranty...just a new drive), but was wondering if I can still get it to work, perhaps in another system. I don't think the students will use up the 80 GB. They are only using 2 and 3 MP cameras.

1) The SCSI is running through a PCI card interface. The IDE is NOT. The SCSI is I think SCSI 2 (the pins are very small and 2 times as many as a standard scsi. I was really thinking to keep the SCSI online onlong with the new 80. I am sure the 20gb IDE drive is older, slower drive, probably 5200 RPM, or slower.

2) I am currently running OS9.2.2. I was thinking to reformat just to start clean. I have already backed up the student data as well as exported the Appleshare 6.3.1 user data.

I have a few questions about your instructions:

6) Do I have to partition? I actually already formated the drive to get it ready for the system to be installed. I did one single partition of extended format. I then tried to install OS10 (I didn't have your steps at that point) but the installation failed twice. Perhaps because the system 9 was interfering from the other drive...even though I was booting from CD. So, if I must partition, why standard for the first part?

10) Why does teh scsi need to be set to slave? It is the only thing on the scsi chain.

17) Lets assume that the 20gb is dead. And even if it is not, it is unreliable. Apple utlities reports errors that it can not fix. So it is ok to keep the scsi online along wtih the 80gb IDE right? And I am assuming you still think the 80gb IDE will be the better option to boot off.

Thanks for taking the time to reply!

Drew
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goodolebwinches
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a.) Yes, the SCSI drive has to be set to slave. Even if it is the only SCSI in the chain. This is because your SCSI drive is currently your START-UP(BOOT) DRIVE. Adding other master drive confuses your system more than your situation confuses you and me.

b.) Take things slowly. You appear confused and to be going too fast. You've got a drive that works. You don't know how well your upgrades will work out. Don't mess up and fudge the information on your SCSI drive. Keep that information safe. You will need this drive, because it works. Please trust me. Do not reformat this drive any time soon. If all fails you can always return to this SCSI drive to make your system work.

c.) Screw that ZIP DISK crap. You don't need that garbage, and it is only adding to your confusion in this situation. All the utilities you need are on the OS X install CD.

d.) Please sit that ZIP DISK and your SCSI DRIVE aside for now. They aren't going anywhere and the data from the drive can always be added later to your new drive at any time.

e.) Remove that SCSI DRIVE completely and sit it aside. REPEAT....REMOVE THAT SCSI DRIVE AND SET IT ASIDE...AND WHILE YOU'RE AT IT SIT THAT DAMN ZIP DISK DOWN.

f.) I was there in Estill Springs, Tennessee circa: 1987. I saw him on that freezer, it was real, trust me.

g.) Forget the 20GB hard drive for now. It, like the SCSI, can always be added later.

YOU HAVE AN OS 9 INSTALL CD(you never mentioned this before...this is important stuff), YOU HAVE AN OS X INSTALL CD(so I believe), YOU HAVE AN NEW 80GB HARD DRIVE.
IF THIS IS ALL CORRECT THEN PLEASE SET ASIDE 2 HOURS AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS:

1.) Insert the OS 9 INSTALL CD in the CD DRIVE. REPEAT OS 9 CD.
2.) Now, SHUT DOWN the system, and un-plug it.
3.) Remove the SCSI drive completely now.
4.) Install the 80GB hard drive with jumpers set to master...and do not run it through the PCI card. Use the ATA/IDE cable that connects to the motherboard(technically in a Mac they call it a logicboard).
5.) Once the 80GB hard drive is installed, close it up, and get ready to power up by plugging it back in the wall.
6.) Hold down the letter "C" key on your keyboard, and push the power button on.
7.) Hold down the letter "C" throughout the entire start-up and do not take your finger off until you see that the OS 9 install screen has come up.(this could take up to three minutes..your finger may get sore).
8.) Double click on the UTILITIES FOLDER within the menu that pops up.
9.) Double click on DRIVE SET-UP.
10.) Select the hard drive that you would like to partition. There should only be one drive BECAUSE WE MUST HAVE TOLD YOU BY NOW TO REMOVE THAT DARN SCSI.
11.) Choose CUSTOM SET-UP.
12.) Create 3 patitions. Yes, 3 partitions. Please, trust me. Don't go getting confused on me.(The current 80GB will be wiped clean, but you mention it was useless anyway. Remember this is fresh start time.)
13.) Highlight the FIRST PARTITION and select type MAC OS STANDARD and size choose at least 10GB.
14.) Highlight the THIRD PARTITION and select type MAC OS EXTENDED and size at least 10GB.
15.) Highlight the SECOND PARTITION(the middle one) and select type MAC OS EXTENDED. You won't have to select the size, because it will be the largest remaining portion.
16.) Click OK in the bottom right of the MENU.
17.) Click INITIALIZE.
18.) Wait for this to complete.
19.) Go to FILE in the top MENU BAR and quit the DRIVE SET-UP.
20.) You should see 3 hard drives to your right.
21.) RENAME these partitions by highlighting the UNTILTLED section underneath each drive.
22.) Name the 1st one "OS 9", the 2nd "OS 10", and the 3rd "SCSI DATA".
23.) Double click on INSTALL MAC OS, and Install OS 9 onto OS 9. It should install all the updates, but if not. Keep your computer name and user name cosistant. Write them down if needed. You don't want to name it another name on the other drives. After you restart. REMOVE the OS 9 INSTALL CD.
24.) Your computer should have booted up in OS 9 now.
25.) Click on the APPLE in the top left and click CONTROL PANELS, then click SOFTWARE UPDATE.
26.) Get all UPDATES for OS 9(may require several start ups).
27.) The most curcial are the FIRMWARE and OS 9.2.2 UPDATES.
28.) Make sure you get these, before moving one to OS X. You may have to go to the APPLE site if they won't come through on SOFTWARE UPDATE.
29.) INSERT the MAC OS X INSTALL CD in the CD ROM. RESTART, while holding down the "C" key.
30.) Install OS X on the drive titled OS 10. Remember name the computer the same name you used in OS 9.
31.) After restart. Click the BLUE APPLE TOP LEFT, click SYSTEM PREFENCES, click SOFTWARE UPDATE...and get all updates. If it restarts in OS 9 then APPLE, CONTROL PANELS, START-UP DISK, SELECT OS 10.
32,) In SYSTEM PREFENCES, or START-UP DISK(in OS 9), select the start-up disk as "OS 10" hard drive.
33.) Now, you system should be working good.
34.) Now, you can hook up the SCSI DRIVE(jumper set to slave) or the 20GB(jumper set to slave) in addition to your new 80GB drive. No, don't mess with you 80GB drive. Leave it in there and alone. Hook up the SCSI just like you had it, but with the jumper set to slave...also the cable off the PCI card might have to be moved to the other location. Usually those PCI cards have two cable connections. Both in use for RAID set-up, or one for master, one for slave.
35.) You only have to mess with that cable crap if the drive is not recognized in the desktop.
36.) You don't have to use the "SCSI DATA" partition for the SCSI's data. You can leave the SCSI in and just use it that way, and rename the "SCSI DATA" partition anything you want and use it for anything you want.
37.) If you choose to use the 20GB as slave connected through the secondary IDE/ATA cable interface. After it is installed. You should be started-up in OS X, select GO, APPLICATIONS, UTILITIES, DISK UTILITY, and SET UP the 20gb as a MAC OS EXTENDED and use it anyway you want.

I HOPE THIS HELPS.
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lokerd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodolebwinches
c.) Screw that ZIP DISK crap. You don't need that garbage, and it is only adding to your confusion in this situation. All the utilities you need are on the OS X install CD.
f.) I was there in Estill Springs, Tennessee circa: 1987. I saw him on that freezer, it was real, trust me.

IF THIS IS ALL CORRECT THEN PLEASE SET ASIDE 2 HOURS AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS:

I HOPE THIS HELPS.
Hello. Thanks again for taking the time. I worked on it for a couple of hours. There were some questions in the Server set up that did not go as planned and will tackle it again this afternoon. Good thing I didn't reformat the SCSI.

Oh, btw, the Zip diesk wasn't hooked up to this computer. It is hooked up to an old PM5300. I just mentioned it that I copied some stuff off it. Sorry to throw that wrench in there.

Any what is Estill Springs?

Drew
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lokerd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodolebwinches
b.) Take things slowly. You appear confused and to be going too fast.
Well, apparently, I went to fast...as I surely messed things up. I just sent the following post to the macos-x-server listserve...but I am not sure if my registeration and/or ability to receive any replies is set up. Also, I would appreciate any feedback you might have. Let me know what you think.

--------
Hello. Tomorrow morning, I get the wonderful task of reformating my classroom server that I had just set up last week while upgrading from AppleShare IP 6. According to Apple, in a lengthy tech call on Friday, I messed up the installation from the get go. Since I am having to start from scratch, I thought I would ask about changing the computer that I am installing the software to.

Currently, the server software is installed on a G3 Server, Blue and White, 350mhz, with 512mb of ram, the original 9gb scsi drive, and a new 80gb IDE drive (the 7200 rpm and 8mb cache variety).

My lab consists of 15 iMacs (266 and 333), 5 eMacs, 3 5200-5500 PowerMacs, the G3 Server, and a G4 laptop (soon to be delivered).

Previously, while using Ip 6.3.2, the G3 would occasionally just lock up when using anything on the server. This was even after starting with a clean server over the summer, reformatting and starting from scratch. I was hoping the upgrade, which was also a clean format, would resolve any crashing, especially with it being OS 10 and all (it was on OS9).

Question is if I should use one of the eMacs to use as a server? It is a G4 800mhz, with 512mb or ram, and a built in 40gb drive. I guess the real question is if the eMac has other bottle necks that the dedicated G3 Server tower would still be better despite the slower CPU. OS 10 on the G3 was clearly a drag, and I am unsure of why it was continuing to crash, sometimes even when the machine was NOT being used, and other wise appeared to be idle, like after school in the evening, it would just be frozen. I can take the new drive out of the server (the high speed 80gb drive) and put it in the eMac, and then install the server on it. Or is there a place for a second drive on an eMac?

I am planning on doing the formatting tomorrow morning. The students are already going to be frustrated at me for not letting them in the lab to work on the pictures they just took on Thursday. The reason I had to call Apple Friday was that when they went to use the Picture browser software, all of the client machines froze, as the local machines attempted to get the information from the server. According to Apple, the setup that I have that is incorrect, resulted in the local machines trying to access the software over the server despite setting it up to access the local installation of that software.

Thanks for any feedback. I am new to this list, so if you don't mind, can you please email me a CC of any replies, just in case I can't figure out where the replies are located, etc.

Drew
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