Illustrator questions...

Ok so I went back to school to learn desktop publishing. Among other things we are leaning, natch, Adobe Illustrator. I have Illustrator CS2 at home, the school has Illustrator CS.

Now we are learning the Pathfinder filters and the Compound Path action on designs.

The teacher explained time and time again just how the Pathfinder filters work and how the Compound Path action but I just cannot grasp it.

In certain situations, it's best, says he, to use the Substract from shape Pathfinder filter while in other situations it's best to use Compound Path.

The way I understand it is the way these will work on a shape and if you have to change, at a later date, the background colour in the file or something.

If someone could explain this to me in a way I could understand it, I would greatly appreciate it. I have an exam this coming Thursday and I'm trying very hard NOT to panic here... :bomb:

In very simplified terms, if you use the Pathfinder "subrtact from shape" it works very much like a cookie cutter. It cuts out the shape and you are left with a frame of sorts. There is no turning back and you are left with whatever you cut.
Using the Compound Path, you end up with a similar result, however you now have the ability to separate the original shapes. Just select your Compound path and choose 'Release'. Doing so will once again leave you with your original shapes to arrange or delete as you see fit. It is very helpful if you need to go back and make edits or other changes.
At least that is my personal understanding and how I use the two methods myself.

Oh that makes a lot of sense DB! I can see a difference in them now! Thanks a whole lot. I am so totally grateful for this!

Another question... When I bring from school a project I want to finish or touch up at home it doesn't work too well. I saved my file here as an Illustrator CS file but the image was flattened and I could not open any layers back at school (which was a royal bummer, I can tell ya!) so I guess my question is: how do I save the file so the layers aren't squished to death when I open them up back at school?

Should I try the save as an Illustrator 10 Legacy file?

try saving as a .pdf, they keep the layers so when you open them again in illustrator you can still edit things.

Ok will do! Thanks a million, PRT!!!

Seems the layers must have been flatted before you saved it. That won't work.

In PS I always save my work then flatten the image and save as a .jpeg or .gif and then I don't save the PS file again so that the image isn't flattened. Otherwise it's useless for modifying later. I hope that made sense.

Well this time I also saved them with the option of Paste remembers Layers checked. Anyway I saved each file three times with different formats: one as .pdf like was suggested here, one as CS again but with that option checked and the last as Illustrator Legacy version 10 with, again that option checked in the layers palette. I'll see which ones work the best.

Youre welcome, let us know which one worked the best for you. Ive never tried saving as Illustrator Legacy so I am interested to see how it works out.

PunkRockTuba said:

try saving as a .pdf, they keep the layers so when you open them again in illustrator you can still edit things.

Click to expand...

whoah there, be careful doing that. There's an option to lock editing capabilities, meaning the document can be opened in illustrator, but not edited. I would suggest ONLY saving as pdf when you want to email your work to a client (or friend, or whatever) Now, I'm not 100% sure, but pdf's MIGHT outline text. So if you import it back into illustrator, the text may not be editable. Don't hold me to this, as I think it also depends on the settings used to create the pdf.

Basically, while you're working on it, keep it in .ai format. Even after you finish, keep an .ai backup. Always a wise thing to do.

Now, on to pathfinder. I'm a little rusty, but I'm not entirely sure there's a way to 'undo' pathfinder (short of literally undoing however many actions until you come to the pathfinder action), even if you don't click expand.

As mentioned previously, a compound path can be released. I would use this more commonly for something I know I'll be editing a lot, or something temporary. I often use this to create a kind of 'frame' for my entire canvas, blocking extruding edges so I have a nice, clean view (this is on a separate layer of course.) But if I'm creating a shape to be used along with others, then I'll use pathfinder. This is the way I work, and from my teachings of illustrator when learning graphic art.

*nifty tip. You know that there are two selection tools. Using the 'direct select tool' (white arrow) you can select a single item WITHIN a group of items affected by pathfinder. This means, the shape is still editable, movable etc. Once the individual item is selected, you can then hit V to switch to the selection tool, and move it as normal, or edit the path with the direct selection tool.

This also works if you group objects, and want to edit something without ungrouping them. Very useful if you want to work quickly.

Generally, I would use the pathfinder to simplify paths. A simple example would be creating a cloud. Create a bunch of circles, and merge with pathfinder and expand. You're left with the outlines, and not dozens of circles. This is much easier on the RAM (especially when I started back on G3 machines) so you'll get faster displays. It also helps to save RAm if you hit apple+y to go to outline mode. This is especially useful too for pathfinder because all the shapes are visible - sometimes you'll be working with colours that are hard to see due to brightness and what not, and this eliminates that problem.

Anyway, enough rambling from me Compound path for easily editable shapes, pathfinder for a more permanent shape, which may need to be edited in other ways later.
phew.

No no I really appreciate all your input guys! I find Illustrator very complex and I really need to develop a method and a way of thinking when I work with it. Basically I need to see a shape and know the tools I will need to use tore produce it.

This is one of the shapes I needed to create (below as attachment). Nothing too complex here, just a technical drawing of a photocopier. Basically it was to draw the black shapes, assemble them using the Pathfinder filter Add to shape to make a big block and the shape that was the most in the background.

Then it was a matter of drawing some of the white shapes and then using some shapes in either black or white, really doesn't matter at this point, to punch out the first white shapes so we see the black in the background. Like if I were to move the white shapes out of the way, we would see whatever was behind it.

What I fail to see is where in this shape, for example, I was better to use the Compound Path action. The teacher said that for certain cut-outs I should have used Compound Path.

Anyway, I suppose this is just a question of practice till it becomes second nature to me. I am on the verge, thanks to your explanations and redrawing these shapes ad nauseam to understand what these filters and actions really are and understanding how they interact with shapes.

So again, thanks to all of your input, it really helps.

OK, for my way of working, I'd use pathfinder. The reason for this is that upon hitting expand, I can then have a much tidier shape and can comfortably work with both the inside and outside points and edges of the shape. You don't get messy, overlapping shapes, just nice, clean paths. This will really be noticeable in outline view (apple+y)

Am I correct in asking that you were expected to use both[i/] techniques in creating this? If so, I too fail to see your teacher's point of view, and see no need to bring both into play for such a simple shape. Using both would only lead to complications later should you need to edit it. I learned illustrator 5 years ago, have been using it ever since and technical illustration is actually where I excelled in my course.
Examples (illustrator 10):
comic cover

tech illo

Yeah I was supposed to use both methods in the drawing. The one I uploaded earlier was the most complex one (well, to my neophyte eyes anyway) of the bunch.

Man, you are good! The tech illo one was done with Gradient Mesh, was it not?

We are supposed to see that technique in a later module. I can hardly wait, I've seen some pretty cool stuff done with this, including yours.

mm, don't think I used a gradient mesh for that. I try to avoid using that whenever possible. I don't know if the tool was improved at all in CS, but I found it didn't have the control I like to have with my work. I tend to use transparency combined with blending modes (lke multiply, screen etc.) for my gradients.

Again, it's very peculiar to be expected to use two very similar techniques on the same image, when essentially, they will produce the same visual effect. I'd just find it harder to come back to that image after some time if you're mixing techniques around. It's kinda similar to not naming layers, in a 20+ layer document - you will have trouble rediscovering what's what again.

Perhaps you could ask your teacher where and why he thinks a compound path should be used. I'd be very interested to hear. I don't doubt your teacher, as I might stand to gain something here too.

We should rename this thread "For Gearheads Only"...

Great topic though.

LOL, CB

Yeah I did ask him and he said it was for editing the image later if I wanted to. But I will ask him again this Monday. This was a Friday class and I think we were both thinking of the weekend.

My gawd, that blending tool sure looks awesome! Guess we'll see that later too then.

I got for Xmas the Adobe Illustrator Classroom in a book and have yet to get plenty of lessons under my belt: as it stands now I have only gone through the first three. I also got the Adobe Illustrator CS2 Wow Book but that one is so badly written, it takes me half an hour to try to find out what the author means, the explanations aren't clear at all and go all over the place.

I wonder if you guys have ever seen Yukio Miyamoto's work? Looking at what this man can do with Illustrator knocks off my socks each and every time!

MacHeadCase said:

Yeah I did ask him and he said it was for editing the image later if I wanted to. But I will ask him again this Monday.

Click to expand...

actually, it's possible (in this case) to eliminate the pathfinder action. Simply select the inner corner points with the direct select tool, and hit delete. That'll give you a solid block of black again

MacHeadCase said:

I wonder if you guys have ever seen Yukio Miyamoto's work? Looking at what this man can do with Illustrator knocks off my socks each and every time!

Click to expand...

wow, makes me wanna get out the camera, take some nice photos and get them redone in illustrator. And see his studio? phwoar

Cool tip! Thanks again. Wow! I shoulda started this thread weeks ago! LOL

You guys are awesome! Can't rep you anymore, guys, the board software says I gotta spread the wealth. ASAP I will though!

dtownley1 said:

*Snip*
wow, makes me wanna get out the camera, take some nice photos and get them redone in illustrator. And see his studio? phwoar

Click to expand...

OMG I hadn't noticed his studio before! Look at all that equipment.

Edited to add:

Some awesome tutorials on this page for anyone wanting to learn drawing techniques (like how to draw perspective, for example), Illustrator and Photoshop stuff as well.

Man that one guys stuff is insane, I want to know how much time it took for him to get that good.

Good God...now that is what I call a Super Gearhead. WOW.

Awesome stuff there MHC.