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Raz0rEdge
08-31-2017, 04:50 PM
macOS High Sierra is going through its public beta and is expected to be released later this year. One of the big features of High Sierra is the introduction of APFS (Apple new filesystem) which is targeting Flash/SSD storage. As per the support note (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208018), installing High Sierra on a Mac with a Flash/SSD will cause the conversion from HFS to APFS is automatic and cannot be opt'ed out of.

Macs with regular HDDs and Fusion drive are exempt from the automatic conversion, but it isn't clear if APFS will support those drives (initial thinking is that it wouldn't)..

So, unlike previous upgrades of macOS where you may have been a little gung-ho with the upgrade without properly backing up everything, the upgrade to High Sierra isn't one of those. Make sure you have a good (bootable) backup of your existing machine and all of your data (ideally in multiple forms) to go back if things go awry..

Read more: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208018

harryb2448
08-31-2017, 05:10 PM
For mine Ashwin I think it will support both as Apple are still selling platter and Fusion drives in brand new models. To my reading of the link, and from the Apple Developer Forum where folks are running High Sierra on Fusion drives, it will be an optional thing. Also think there is a long way to go before High Sierra really hits the high notes!

chscag
08-31-2017, 05:18 PM
Macs with regular HDDs and Fusion drive are exempt from the automatic conversion, but it isn't clear if APFS will support those drives (initial thinking is that it wouldn't)..

Just read through the Apple KB article. Going to be lots of confusion and grinding of teeth when High Sierra goes live. LOL.

chscag
08-31-2017, 05:26 PM
To my reading of the link, and from the Apple Developer Forum where folks are running High Sierra on Fusion drives, it will be an optional thing.

I kind of agree that it will be optional. However, I personally will stick with HFS+ as long as what the link says about interoperability is true. No reason in my opinion to break something that's not broken. ;D When I buy my next Mac it will have all Flash storage and then I'll be using APFS.

Slydude
08-31-2017, 06:10 PM
I've been running the betas since they became available. I currently have it on my 2015 iMac with Fusion drive. The drive is formatted as APFS because I \wanted to test that file system. I had the chance to determine whether I wanted to convert the drive which I chose to do because I wanted to see how it performed.

I have not tested it on a pure platter drive since I don't have a spare around at the moment.

Raz0rEdge
08-31-2017, 06:12 PM
Again, the beta is allowing you to switch between the two. But on the released version of High Sierra, only flash/SSD will be converted automatically with no opt-out while HDD and Fusion drives will not be automatically converted. There is no indication whether those drives will support APFS at that point..

IWT
08-31-2017, 06:42 PM
I currently have it on my 2915 iMac

Boy, are you ahead of the game! What's it like on the planet now?

Ian

pigoo3
08-31-2017, 06:45 PM
I currently have it on my 2915 iMac with Fusion drive.

Jeez. Apple is STILL using Fusion Drive's in 2915???;)

- Nick

pm-r
08-31-2017, 06:51 PM
macOS High Sierra APFS only support SSDs



Wow!! I thought that subject heading was a bad joke or a very late April Fools joke at first glance. :\

Anyway, I doubt I'll be using any of it for quite some time.





- Patrick
======

pm-r
08-31-2017, 06:53 PM
Boy, are you ahead of the game! What's it like on the planet now?

Ian



Very, very wet I understand and it seems like some unique cases of soggy brain are showing up in places. :Smirk:




- Patrick
======

Slydude
08-31-2017, 06:55 PM
Boy, are you ahead of the game! What's it like on the planet now?

Ian
Wow. Apparently I have perfected time travel and didn't realize it. Can't tell what the planet is like. If I do they take away the Mac and make me do my computing on a Kaypro or Wang system.

ferrarr
08-31-2017, 07:02 PM
Do we know if it applies to changed out drives? I changed to an SSD in my mini, is that considered all flash?

pm-r
08-31-2017, 07:12 PM
Do we know if it applies to changed out drives? I changed to an SSD in my mini, is that considered all flash?


I would sure think and assume so. Can't get much more flashier than a true all SSD I'd say.





- Patrick
======

ferrarr
08-31-2017, 07:39 PM
The reason I asked, was because I did not think Apple used SSD drives in any of their Macs, only HDD and Flash storage. And, the Article never mentioned SSD drives, only Flash and Fusion drives. I did also ask on Apple Support Forums, just to see if anyone there knew too.

Raz0rEdge
08-31-2017, 10:02 PM
Flash = SSD. The iMacs only have SSDs through the Fusion drives and the MBPs have the Flash drives (not traditional SATA based SSDs)..

chscag
08-31-2017, 10:04 PM
That's an interesting point that Bob Ferrarr has come up with. Flash storage vs an SSD. What's the difference?

Nothing like more confusion, however, Slydude and his Time Travel Hat should be able to fill us in... :P

Raz0rEdge
08-31-2017, 10:28 PM
A SSD has at it's core the flash component, the other part of it is the connector either PCIe (MBPs) or SATA (replacement to traditional HDD).

pm-r
09-01-2017, 12:16 AM
Flash storage vs an SSD. What's the difference?


AFAIK and as Ashwin stated about the connectors, and from what I've read, the SSDs normally use better quality and faster chips than the smaller "flash" or "thumb" drives as they are referred to.

No doubt, there may also be a small difference in some of the circuitry each uses.


EDIT:
Well sure lots of info out there like:

https://www.google.ca/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=What's+the+difference+between+a+SSD+and+flash+dr ive&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=HNGoWZrHIsve8AfTqIXwCQ

And then some hits like:
SSD vs. HDD: What's the Difference?
https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2404258,00.asp
and
The Difference Between SSD and Flash Hard Drives
https://danielmiessler.com/blog/the-difference-between-ssd-and-flash-hard-drives/#gs.5zv17Ig






- Patrick
======

IWT
09-01-2017, 03:52 AM
If I may quote directly from the second of Patrick's excellent links: (Source acknowledged as https://danielmiessler.com/blog/the-...es/#gs.5zv17Ig)

1. Modern SSD hard drives are Flash-based, so today there’s not really a difference today between SSD and Flash. SSD is simply a disk that doesn’t have moving parts, and Flash is the implementation that allows that to happen.

2. USB thumb drives have used Flash storage for a long time as well, but the quality of the Flash storage in those is typically much lower than the Flash memory used in SSDs. This means much worse performance, etc.

3. In short, you shouldn’t compare Flash to SSD just as you shouldn’t compare batteries to lithium-ion. In both cases the latter is a type of the former.


Ian

Raz0rEdge
09-01-2017, 10:10 AM
Getting a little off-topic here..but yes, flash parts come in different variety best suited to the size (both physical and storage) they need to conform to..the smallest of microSDs use a particular type of flash part that has a very short lifespan, but is darn cheap. The SSDs on the other end of the spectrum use the type that has quite a long life but also is more expensive, but since the entire SSD is being sold for more than a microSD, the cost makes sense..

RadDave
09-01-2017, 05:41 PM
Guys - question about the new APFS - when 'High Sierra' is released, I plan to upgrade my Mac laptops w/ SSDs which will automatically convert their file systems to Apple's new one from my reading of this thread & the links. My wife's iMac has a fusion drive (and will await Apple's decision as to how they may handle these spinning drives - and I'm planning soon to replace that computer w/ a new one which will have a SSD) which I may not upgrade to 'High Sierra' unless that option exists and is considered a safe transition?

But my question is whether apps, such as updated Pages, Numbers, & Keynote writing to the new APFS can exchange their files w/ the older HFS+ if still on our iMac; of course, the issue may apply to other apps - my initial thought is that the files will be interchangeable, but if not then maybe yet another PITA? Just thinking about my old days w/ Windows and updates/upgrades to Word & Excel. Dave :)

Slydude
09-01-2017, 06:27 PM
A new public beta just popped up for me. I'll try to test that specifically but I don't recall any previous issues.

pm-r
09-01-2017, 06:48 PM
But my question is whether apps, such as updated Pages, Numbers, & Keynote writing to the new APFS can exchange their files w/ the older HFS+ if still on our iMac;


I don't have a super accurate gazing ball, but I'd expect Apple to have things working pretty correctly and compatible as they did with the GUID changeover from APF (Apple Partition Map)/ HFS+ etc. format stuff.

But my inner gut says it's not going to be quite so friendly accessing some older formats with backward compatibility and some users (support techs etc) having to rely on having at least two different OS X operating Macs. As an old retied fellow I know always just says — we shall see!!

How to format a drive, or disc for maximum portability?
https://discussions.apple.com/docs/DOC-3003




- Patrick
======

Slydude
09-01-2017, 08:46 PM
Dave, I have my main drive formatted with the new APFS formatting. I can open documents stored on HFS+ drives with no issues. One thing I have noticed is that if I boot from my external HFS+ drive running Sierra it doesn't see my APFS drive. As far as I can tell, nothing in Sierra "sees" the APFS formatted drive. I can't, for example, go into the Startup preference pane and select the APFS drive if I am in Sierra.

I've opened Apple and non Apple documents and programs with no issues so long as the versions are reasonably current. Even my QuickTime Pro 7 installation migrated over from Sierra and still works.

chscag
09-01-2017, 09:19 PM
But my question is whether apps, such as updated Pages, Numbers, & Keynote writing to the new APFS can exchange their files w/ the older HFS+ if still on our iMac; of course, the issue may apply to other apps - my initial thought is that the files will be interchangeable, but if not then maybe yet another PITA? Just thinking about my old days w/ Windows and updates/upgrades to Word & Excel. Dave

Dave:

Apple has already stated that APFS and HFS+ will be interoperable. In other words they can read and write to each other - in the same way back when Windows 2000 was deployed and FAT-32 and NTFS could be used. There may come a time when Apple changes things and only APFS will be available. Much in the same way as today with Windows and NTFS.

ferrarr
09-01-2017, 09:46 PM
You need to be running macOS Sierra 6 (10.12.6) to be able to read APFS drives.

Slydude
09-01-2017, 09:55 PM
I don't think that is quite right. I haven't test this with the High Sierra beta that dropped today but that hasn't been true for some of the betas. In fact, the one I just replaced was listed in the store as a "developer beta". Under that beta Sierra did not recognize my APFS drive but the APFS beta would recognize Sierra and others.

RadDave
09-01-2017, 10:55 PM
Thanks All for the comments - all of my computers are on macOS 10.12.6, so I suspect that if I upgrade my laptops to 'High Sierra' and even keep the iMac on Sierra 10.12.6, then I'll be fine w/ exchanging files, as needed - not that often as a 'retired ole fart' - :) Dave

dtravis7
09-02-2017, 04:37 AM
I am on my late 2011 MBP 13" with Sierra 10.12.6 and the APFS drive shows on the desktop and everywhere else.

Slydude
09-02-2017, 11:29 AM
That's good to know Dennis. Not sure why it isn't showing for me -- especially since holding down the option key works for me. I'll have to boot into Sierra in a bit and check the settings to see if something has been changed.

badshoehabit
09-03-2017, 12:30 PM
Can someone translate all this into Mickey Mouse language and how it will affect me, please? Not the time travel, I'm right up there!

MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2015)
2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3
Macintosh HD
Intel Iris Pro 1536 MB

IWT
09-03-2017, 01:05 PM
Can someone translate all this into Mickey Mouse language and how it will affect me, please? Not the time travel, I'm right up there!

MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2015)
2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3
Macintosh HD
Intel Iris Pro 1536 MB

Hi Sue.

Your MacBook Pro has a SSD (= Flash storage) and is running macOS Sierra.

If you go back to Ashwin's original post, #1, there is a Link - and here it is again - https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208018

This will explain, hopefully, what to expect when macOS High Sierra comes along. As you have an SSD/Flash drive, conversion to APFS is automatic - no choice. Look at the section on APFS compatibility and this explains all. You should have no difficulties as you are running Sierra currently.

It also tells you about Time Machine and lots else.

Hope this might help?

Ian

badshoehabit
09-03-2017, 01:17 PM
Thanks, Ian. Clear as mud but you have reassured me. I did read that link initially but thought it applied to networks as it said 'If you’re a system administrator. Suppose I'm the system administrator.

pm-r
09-03-2017, 06:45 PM
'If you’re a system administrator. Suppose I'm the system administrator.

Yup Sue. Just like a lot of Apple's "Help" topics do and say: "contact your system administrator for help and settings" etc. !!!

Yeah right, what a sick "help" support suggestion for home users I've always thought that is.



Suppose I'm the system administrator.

Yup, that's definitely you if you're the admin user and especially if you're a single home Mac user.


If so, next stop at some of your local pubs and maybe scrape up some Mac "system administrator" and hope they aren't completely smashed if and when you might need their "help". :D




- Patrick
======

pm-r
09-03-2017, 07:15 PM
'If you’re a system administrator. Suppose I'm the system administrator.


And if you do go with High Sierra (HS) and are using a SSD and decide you want to go back, you'll probably need that privilege in order to do so which isn't an easy cake walk as things are recently standing it seems:

How to revert back to Apple's HFS+ from APFS
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-revert-back-to-apples-hfs-from-apfs/

That could hopefully change after the HS Public Release. Mmmmm…???




- Patrick
======

IWT
09-04-2017, 05:05 AM
I can see why folks are confused when I read Patrick's link (I don't mean you, Patrick, I mean the content of the link:) )

This is Patrick's link: http://www.techrepublic.com/article/...hfs-from-apfs/. ; wherein there are conflicting statements with respect to Apple's official release: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208018

For example, the tech republic's article says:
However, that doesn't mean APFS is everyone, especially considering some of its limitations, such as not being compatible with Time Machine for backups, FileVault 2 for drive encryption

whereas Apple says:
APFS and Time Machine

After you upgrade your institution's Mac and convert to APFS, you won't need to make any changes to Time Machine settings.

and
APFS and FileVault

FileVault volumes are converted from HFS+ to APFS, just like unencrypted volumes.

I'd be tempted to favour the Apple version. In any case, upgrading to macOS High Sierra is not compulsory and many might want to await till at least the first point update.

As the Chinese might say: "Interesting Times".

Ian

pm-r
09-04-2017, 01:12 PM
@Ian

As the Chinese might say: "Interesting Times"


As you probably know, the full Chinese proverb is "May you live in interesting times."

And pretty appropriate these days I'd say with the nut case president of North Korea they have as a neighbor. :[




- Patrick
======

badshoehabit
09-04-2017, 02:14 PM
Careful Patrick, people in glass (White) houses...:Mischievous:

RadDave
09-04-2017, 02:47 PM
As you probably know, the full Chinese proverb is "May you live in interesting times."

And pretty appropriate these days I'd say with the nut case president of North Korea they have as a neighbor. :[



Careful Patrick, people in glass (White) houses...:Mischievous:

BOY! Where is Chuck when we need him? ;) :Cool: Dave
.
27061

pm-r
09-04-2017, 03:19 PM
BOY! Where is Chuck when we need him?


+1!!!

27062

27063




- Patrick
======

ferrarr
09-04-2017, 03:23 PM
That's him wading through the Houston floods.

pm-r
09-04-2017, 03:25 PM
Careful Patrick, people in glass (White) houses...:Mischievous:



I'm just one of those peaceful, peacekeeping Canadian (English) Canucks types…




- Patrick
======

pm-r
09-04-2017, 03:27 PM
That's him wading through the Houston floods.



I don't think so, unless the photo was taken with receding water levels, as the shoreline is visible behind him…


Now back to your normal programming…



- Patrick
======