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nickyr
09-09-2014, 02:43 PM
BBC News - Apple unveils bigger iPhone handsets (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29128083)

chscag
09-09-2014, 04:59 PM
The smaller sized iPhone 6 is the one I like. I've handled large screen smart phones in stores and while they look great, they're not something that I want to carry around. That's just my opinion of course, however, lots of folks love them, just not me. ;)

WolfsBane
09-09-2014, 05:24 PM
As a long time iPhone user... Completely underwhelmed. Where are the leading features that puts it ahead of the competition? Practically everything announced today may be a first for the iPhone, but most of it has already been done elsewhere. And some of its features where Apple has been lagging that users were hoping for an upgrade are actually staying the same. So, we are being asked to pay premium prices just so Apple can catch up a little with what the rest of its competition is already doing?

Not likely. There are better mobile devices for the money than what Apple announced today.

mrplow
09-09-2014, 06:14 PM
I mean no disrespect but that's what gets said after every single keynote.

Yet every year on year iPhone sales increase. I'm no betting man but I wouldn't be at all surprised if that happens again.

vansmith
09-09-2014, 06:31 PM
Practically everything announced today may be a first for the iPhone, but most of it has already been done elsewhere.As with any of the last three or so iOS releases. Let's see:
- Landscape mode for the phone - why is this a selling point?
- Normal screen sizes on an iPhone. Thanks for catching up to smartphones of years ago.
- Finally hitting 1080p. Thanks for making an HD display available for the phone.

To be fair, it does have some impressive hardware but nothing that puts it years ahead of anything else on the market (however much Apple's marketing team wants to spin it).

As much as I held out these years, finally catching up to other smartphones on some key points (no longer does the iPhone have a display size designed for children...finally) has made it a more attractive option for me. Hell hath frozen over it would seem. Indeed, the tight integration with OS X looks so so very nice.


I mean no disrespect but that's what gets said after every single keynote.Because Apple always puts out catch up phones. ;)

lclev
09-09-2014, 07:30 PM
I will say, have been waiting for the iPhone 6. I am at the end of my cellphone contract so I can get a new one. I currently have a Samsung galaxy note 2 - which I still love and that says a lot for me. I have a habit of wanting the newest, latest and greatest asap.

So before I take the plunge, I will visit a store and hold them both. I will have to be very impressed. I do like the A8 64-bit processor and the M8 co-processor. The NFC for payments does not impress me. I don't like my phone handling any money transactions. I have enough issues with my debit card (Home Depot). Actually, I am thinking of going old school using only cash or checks! ;D

The one big draw for me is the integration an iPhone will give me with my iPad and MB's. I plan to wait for the shake out though. See what issues crop up - like real battery life, OS 8, any design problems.

Lisa

Ftor
09-09-2014, 07:53 PM
As a long time iPhone user... Completely underwhelmed. Where are the leading features that puts it ahead of the competition? Practically everything announced today may be a first for the iPhone, but most of it has already been done elsewhere. And some of its features where Apple has been lagging that users were hoping for an upgrade are actually staying the same. So, we are being asked to pay premium prices just so Apple can catch up a little with what the rest of its competition is already doing?

Not likely. There are better mobile devices for the money than what Apple announced today.

As much as I completely agree with you, and I even described my feelings as "underwhelmed" as well, I don't see myself switching with that Apple Watch on the horizon. I'd have to say that was definitely their saving grace today.

It's pretty evident that a majority of their time went into planning for the watch and not for the phone. I currently have a 4s and I've been due for an upgrade for quite some time. At first I was contemplating just getting a cheap 5s and waiting for the next iPhone 6s to use my upgrade, but you know with the new ios 8 software the battery life of the 5s is going to take a hit, and I can't stand using a battery charging case.

So, as much as I'm not crazy about the new iPhone 6, I'll get it so I can be happy with my Apple Watch and never take my phone out of my pocket (if it fits in there to begin with).

dtravis7
09-09-2014, 09:30 PM
Van, you mentioned 1080p HD. Did they say that in the Keynote? Reason I ask is many reviews I have seen are saying 720p on the 4.7" and are blasting the phone because of that.

Is it 1080p or 720p?

TattooedMac
09-09-2014, 09:58 PM
Is it 1080p or 720p?

http://i.imgur.com/LtrjMaJ.png

I love my Apple ecosystem, but I will wait until next year for the new iPhone. Ill take a good look at the watch, not because its Apple, but because I haven't worn a watch in 15 yrs and I do feel naked still without it, so I have a bracelet instead.

Couldn't believe they didn't give us Yosemite release dates because really iOS8 without Yosemite is just another iOS . . . ! does really complement the other.

XJ-linux
09-09-2014, 10:10 PM
I'm going to pass on this one. Both phones are much bigger than I care for. Heck, the iP5S was a bit big for my jeans pockets. I have no desire to have any NFC in anything I own so some anonymous geek can rob me. I'd rather fight 'em for my wallet and make 'em work for it. Honestly, I'm looking forward to getting last year's phone at a discount more than buying a new version.

RustProofCorn
09-09-2014, 10:36 PM
Whelp i for one will be purchasing one or the other. Why because i believe every dang thing apple tells me. Every time i have 2 days of crazy fun and then I just use it as a phone. However i am OK with that.

P.S. Hello everyone.

chscag
09-09-2014, 10:37 PM
It seems the ladies like the large phones. My wife and sister in law both think they're great but that's because they carry the phone in their hand bag which already weighs 10 LBs. ;P

macsupport
09-10-2014, 04:00 AM
My husband like big phone. Personally I think iPhone 6 Plus is too big to be a phone. :|

iPhone 6:
Height: 138.1 mm (5.44 inches)
Width: 67.0 mm (2.64 inches)
Depth: 6.9 mm (0.27 inches)
Weight: 129 grams (4.55 ounces)
1334x750-pixel resolution at 326 ppi

iPhone 6 Plus:
Height: 158.1 mm (6.22 inches)
Width: 77.8 mm (3.06 inches)
Depth: 7.1 mm (0.28 inches)
Weight: 172 grams (6.07 ounces)
1920x1080-pixel resolution at 401 ppi

TattooedMac
09-10-2014, 07:47 AM
I have no desire to have any NFC in anything I own so some anonymous geek can rob me.n.

And this is everyones miss understanding, with the NFC, they are not going to be able to use it, unless they chop your finger off. You saw in the Keynote that you had to use the finger scanner for NFC to work. If you dropped your wallet, then your screwed as signatures are easy to forge, and the the NFC cards we have in Aust let you buy $100 of something without any Code or Sig . . . Bring on NFC Finger Scanner

chas_m
09-10-2014, 08:13 AM
Yes, people are rather shockingly ignorant about NFC and Touch ID I find.

Sawday
09-10-2014, 08:48 AM
What's the point of a phone so large that it won't fit easily into a pocket. My iPhone 4 fits easily into my jeans front pocket, which means I carry it everywhere. Where am I supposed to put an iPhone 6? Answers on a bigger than necessary postcard please.

mrplow
09-10-2014, 08:58 AM
It seems the ladies like the large phones. My wife and sister in law both think they're great but that's because they carry the phone in their hand bag which already weighs 10 LBs. ;P

LMAO. You've nailed it there.

Sawday
09-10-2014, 09:09 AM
LMAO. You've nailed it there.

Am surprised no phone comes with a mirror back then! (Sorry ladies)

mrplow
09-10-2014, 09:16 AM
Am surprised no phone comes with a mirror back then! (Sorry ladies)

too low-tech....front facing camera?

vansmith
09-10-2014, 10:23 AM
Why because i believe every dang thing apple tells me.Why? This is a company that said that larger phones were ridiculous...


Also would like some stats on the battery claim you made. I have an iPhone 5s and it lasts me 2-3 days between charges.I know someone who has an iP4s which has the worst battery I've ever seen on an electronic device - iOS can't read the state (one moment it's at 20%, the next at 1% and 43% a minute later) and it shuts down randomly due to a supposed lack of charge. Batteries are flaky and they degrade over time.


And this is everyones miss understanding, with the NFC, they are not going to be able to use it, unless they chop your finger off. You saw in the Keynote that you had to use the finger scanner for NFC to work.


Yes, people are rather shockingly ignorant about NFC and Touch ID I find.Touch ID has been hacked, like any other technological device. One hacker called it "no challenge at all" (source (http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/09/touchid-hack-was-no-challenge-at-all-hacker-tells-ars/)) with others calling it not strong but "convenient" security (source (https://blog.lookout.com/blog/2013/09/23/why-i-hacked-apples-touchid-and-still-think-it-is-awesome/)). I'd say that being concerned about putting your credit info behind an easily hackable convenient security measure isn't ignorant but is in fact quite smart. In fact, putting multiple credit cards on any sort of device that can be lost is ridiculous.

XJ-linux
09-10-2014, 10:32 AM
Yes, people are rather shockingly ignorant about NFC and Touch ID I find.

Don't be so hard on yourself. You'll learn eventually.

mrplow
09-10-2014, 10:40 AM
In fact, putting multiple credit cards on any sort of device that can be lost is ridiculous.

Like a wallet ;) and no getting a finger print sample and working it up to produce a replica. Just open it up and scribble a rough approximation of the signature, there's even a sample for you to copy on each card!

At least chip and pin is pretty universal in the UK

vansmith
09-10-2014, 12:33 PM
Like a wallet ;)It's a lot easier to lose a phone than it is a wallet. ;)


and no getting a finger print sample and working it up to produce a replica. Just open it up and scribble a rough approximation of the signature, there's even a sample for you to copy on each card!The issue though is that you're duplicating your credit card info for no reason. It's not even all that much quicker than tap and pay credit cards and in fact, it's slower. Sure, it's more secure (since you don't authenticate) but as a hackable tech device (all are after all), you have more to lose.

Perhaps I'm overprotective of my credit but duplicating payment methods and doing so on a device that is easily lost and proven hackable doesn't seem all that attractive when the added convenience isn't all that great.

mrplow
09-10-2014, 01:07 PM
My wife has lost more cards by leaving them in stores than I can count, but no phone loss so far (famous last words!)

The pitch is that your card details aren't duplicated but I'll leave the tech bods to tear it to pieces and scrutinise the security aspect before diving in. I suspect they'd have to have produced something to satisfy the card providers. But I'll wait for independent tests

Chris H.
09-10-2014, 01:27 PM
I was hoping for updates to the iPod touch and perhaps an announcement of OS X Yosemite.

Well one can dream anyway.

As it stands now, I use the Azumio Inc. app tracker on my iPod touch for counting steps. Maybe not be the most accurate way of tracking but I personally don't want a FitBit. Apple Watch may be a birthday gift for me next year. It just makes better sense than a regular fitness accessory.

And if Apple doesn't update the iPod touch line, I think I'll just wait until next year to get an iPhone again. (I had a 4, gave it to my Dad, got his brand new Windows Phone - that was a mistake). The WP is right around 4.5" and fits nicely in my jeans pockets. The iPhone 6 as my next phone would do well with me. I've tried putting a phablet device in my pocket. Sitting down becomes impossible.

vansmith
09-10-2014, 01:43 PM
The pitch is that your card details aren't duplicated but I'll leave the tech bods to tear it to pieces and scrutinise the security aspect before diving in.Ah, but they are - they're stored on your phone. ;)


I suspect they'd have to have produced something to satisfy the card providers. But I'll wait for independent testsWhile it might be encrypted, it's still there. This issue plagues all of these solutions though - Google Wallet, Apple's payment system, <insert other NFC based system here>. What would be smart on Apple's part would be a global on/off switch if (when?) it gets compromised.


Apple Watch may be a birthday gift for me next year.Hope they have some money since they'll be paying an outrageous $350 for a device that adds no useful functionality not found elsewhere (sending kitschy drawings to others in your proximity doesn't count since it's not useful). Then again, if you have an iPhone, you only have one choice if you want a well connected set.

lclev
09-10-2014, 04:24 PM
SInce NFC requires finger print id that leaves me out. I have never been very successful with finger print scanners. I have had two and ended up having to disable both. I have had to have background checks for various jobs and every time it takes multiple tries to get an adequate scan. I can't do face recognition either - seems I must look very different in the morning...hum.... So unless they have made huge improvements in scanning technology on this new iPhone, I won't be using it. Too frustrating.

As for size, purse weight, and what women like...... I'll just say when my husband needs something guess who has it in their purse...

Actually, I am seriously looking at the 4.7 to down size. As I said before, I love my note II but it is big - 5.5". My biggest problem is I would be giving up my pen. I use it to make all kinds of notes and lists.

Lisa

dtravis7
09-10-2014, 05:24 PM
Hope they have some money since they'll be paying an outrageous $350 for a device that adds no useful functionality not found elsewhere (sending kitschy drawings to others in your proximity doesn't count since it's not useful). Then again, if you have an iPhone, you only have one choice if you want a well connected set.

Van, what do you think of the Samsung watches? They do basically the same thing as the Apple watch.

I am glad to see Apple finally play catch up with screen size at least. :D Grin

vansmith
09-10-2014, 06:05 PM
I'm not sold on the utility of the watches but I'm indifferent to the Samsung an LG Android Wear watches. They both suffer from the same aesthetic issues that the Apple Watch does - they're all ugly squares. In terms of utility, I suppose the Samsung and LG watches are more useful but that would only be because I use an Android phone (and has little to do with the Apple Watch being more or less utilitarian than its Android Wear equivalents).

As I said elsewhere on here, in the world of smartwatches, Apple has gotten off to an uncharacteristically uninspired start. Aesthetically, it's not the nicest (the Moto 360 easily takes the cake here) and it's no more functional than other AW watches. The only thing it has going for it is its compatibility with iOS.

dtravis7
09-10-2014, 11:11 PM
Agree. It's not the nicest looking thing. I figured something way more stream lined.

fleurya
09-11-2014, 11:22 PM
I think it's interesting how so many people are trying to tear apart the secure nature of NFC payment with talk of working of sophisticated NFC sniffers, phone hacks, and finger print samples and duplicates.

While they're so busy trying to prove its possible, they completely miss the fact that it is significantly easier, and more likely, that a thief will lift your wallet or purse, and not only get your credit card, but your ID, cash, and other cards and personal items.

I've read tons of stories about people proving Touch ID can be hacked, but not one story of it happening in the real world. Same goes for NFC payments. People need a little dose of reality and perspective here.

dtravis7
09-11-2014, 11:34 PM
I think it's interesting how so many people are trying to tear apart the secure nature of NFC payment with talk of working of sophisticated NFC sniffers, phone hacks, and finger print samples and duplicates.

While they're so busy trying to prove its possible, they completely miss the fact that it is significantly easier, and more likely, that a thief will lift your wallet or purse, and not only get your credit card, but your ID, cash, and other cards and personal items.

I've read tons of stories about people proving Touch ID can be hacked, but not one story of it happening in the real world. Same goes for NFC payments. People need a little dose of reality and perspective here.

Hey, long time no see here on the forums. Welcome.

I do agree with you. To many are scared and spreading FUD about something they really do not understand.

My only critiques of the new iPhone is I feel it's mostly a catch up device, which is not bad but not a lot of innovation this time around.

chas_m
09-12-2014, 05:06 AM
So unless they have made huge improvements in scanning technology on this new iPhone, I won't be using it. Too frustrating.

Are you comparing Touch ID to the Samsung fingerprint thing? If so, hoo boy are you in for a pleasant surprise! Touch ID is so far superior it's not even funny.


My biggest problem is I would be giving up my pen. I use it to make all kinds of notes and lists.


Not sure why you would think that styluses don't work on iPhones if one wants to use them. Me, I dictate most things.

chas_m
09-12-2014, 05:08 AM
I've read tons of stories about people proving Touch ID can be hacked, but not one story of it happening in the real world. Same goes for NFC payments. People need a little dose of reality and perspective here.


Amen. As I mentioned previously, some people are just shockingly ignorant about payments and NFC, and it seems I can add "willfully ignorant" about Apple Pay's implementation.

dtravis7
09-12-2014, 05:12 AM
On the Fingerprint scanner, Apples even on the 5s is better. Every reviewer who knows their stuff agrees. Anand who I GREATLY respect said Apples was far superior to Samsungs. So if touch ID is your thing, there Apple has others beat for now anyway!

On the Pen that comes with Samsungs Note series, there it's ahead of others. No stylus compares with that Pen. I have used both side by side and the Pen is way better. Sorry.

One other thing though that puts the Iphone over all others is the A8. Even the A7 in the 5s wipes the floor with most tests of any Samsung or Snapdragon SOC sometimes but a very large Margin. I am sure that will change with time but for now Apples SOC is the fastest out there.

TattooedMac
09-12-2014, 05:17 AM
People need a little dose of reality and perspective here.

Exactly. Too many people believe the hype without knowing the truth, or knowing anything actually.


My only critiques of the new iPhone is I feel it's mostly a catch up device, which is not bad but not a lot of innovation this time around.

Catchup ?? No innovation ?? I don't think there would be many companies that could get all that jazz into a 6.1or 7.1mm thick device, for the biggest iPhone Dennis. That in itself I would call innovation.

dtravis7
09-12-2014, 05:20 AM
Sorry TattooedMac, that is how I see it's feature set EXCEPT for one saving grace, that A8 SOC.

chas_m
09-12-2014, 06:28 AM
Relevant to the Apple Pay portion of the discussion:

Apple Pay trumps traditional credit & debit cards: MasterCard SVP - Yahoo Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-apple-pay-is-a-safer--more-secure-way-to-purchase-products-180109776.html)

dbm
09-12-2014, 07:14 AM
I think it's interesting how so many people are trying to tear apart the secure nature of NFC payment with talk of working of sophisticated NFC sniffers, phone hacks, and finger print samples and duplicates.

While they're so busy trying to prove its possible, they completely miss the fact that it is significantly easier, and more likely, that a thief will lift your wallet or purse, and not only get your credit card, but your ID, cash, and other cards and personal items.

I've read tons of stories about people proving Touch ID can be hacked, but not one story of it happening in the real world. Same goes for NFC payments. People need a little dose of reality and perspective here.

If you try to use NFC with two cards close together, you get card clash - I have to carefully arrange the cards in my wallet to avoid this. I would challenge anyone to get a NFC read from my wallet when it is closed and I have 3 cards with NFC in close proximity to each other.

NFC is quicker, easier and cheaper than cash for retailers. It's been available for about a year here in the UK but now it's really starting to get traction.

TattooedMac
09-12-2014, 07:49 AM
Relevant to the Apple Pay portion of the discussion:

Apple Pay trumps traditional credit & debit cards: MasterCard SVP - Yahoo Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-apple-pay-is-a-safer--more-secure-way-to-purchase-products-180109776.html)

Good link and this says it all . . .
Sherri Haymond who heads the digital channel management group at MasterCard, tells Yahoo Finance that the technology is "really, really safe" because it uses "EMV security which gives each transaction a code number that only MasterCard or the issuer can unlock."

fleurya
09-12-2014, 09:48 AM
If you try to use NFC with two cards close together, you get card clash - I have to carefully arrange the cards in my wallet to avoid this. I would challenge anyone to get a NFC read from my wallet when it is closed and I have 3 cards with NFC in close proximity to each other.

NFC is quicker, easier and cheaper than cash for retailers. It's been available for about a year here in the UK but now it's really starting to get traction.

I don't think that's a an issue relevant to this discussion since you'll just have the one NFC device, your phone, being used on a terminal. I suppose if your wallet is extremely close to the reader at the same time for some reason it would be an issue, but not really.

I didn't realize UK cards used NFC. I thought they just had the chip that the terminal accessed directly to read. Being able to wave your wallet like a phone does sound kind of handy, but as you mentioned, if you have more than one card (most people do) then it doesn't work well.

vansmith
09-12-2014, 10:52 AM
I think it's interesting how so many people are trying to tear apart the secure nature of NFC payment with talk of working of sophisticated NFC sniffers, phone hacks, and finger print samples and duplicates.A security group attempts to highlight the "major security risk for users of this smart technology" (source (http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelvenables/2013/08/08/wall-of-sheep-near-field-communication-hack-at-def-con/)). There's a lot more of those. ;)


I've read tons of stories about people proving Touch ID can be hacked, but not one story of it happening in the real world. Same goes for NFC payments. People need a little dose of reality and perspective here.Real world, done in a garage (http://www.cnet.com/news/hacker-video-shows-how-to-thwart-apples-touch-id/).


Amen. As I mentioned previously, some people are just shockingly ignorant about payments and NFC, and it seems I can add "willfully ignorant" about Apple Pay's implementation.NFC has been hacked and so many different people have written about it (source (http://www.slideshare.net/Shakacon/hacking-the-nfc-credit-cards-for-fun-and-debit-by-renaud-lifchitz) and source (http://www.amongtech.com/apps-use-nfc-technology-to-hack-credit-card-credentials/) for example). I'm not sure why anyone thinks Apple has somehow secured a technology that has been, without question, shown to be inherently unsecure. On top of that, this is Apple - a company that's snail slow at responding to the few security breaches its experienced (Flashback/Java and iCloud for example). I'm not sure I'd be putting my faith in another insecure technology to manage my credit especially when that company is awfully slow at responding to security issues.


Catchup ?? No innovation ?? I don't think there would be many companies that could get all that jazz into a 6.1or 7.1mm thick device, for the biggest iPhone Dennis. That in itself I would call innovation.Proof? Not much of the technology is ground breaking and it's hardly the thinnest phone on the planet.

fleurya
09-12-2014, 12:56 PM
I'm not sure why anyone thinks Apple has somehow secured a technology that has been, without question, shown to be inherently unsecure.

If anyone believes Apple’s method is any more secure, it is a construct of their own imagination, because nobody is claiming that. Of course (and it shouldn’t need pointing out) nothing is 100% secure. What we’re talking about here is the degree of security. I for one think it’s more likely that a pickpocket will lift my wallet from my pocket, or I get mugged, than some cyber hacker getting into my phone and following me around to get a copy of my finger print to recreate.

That’s just me, but I imagine if you wanted to compare daily instances of pickpockets to daily instances of someone’s phone being hacked, you would quickly find that the old school method is far more likely.

I read one story on a blog where the blogger was trying to claim best way to keep your money safe was in hard cash. Personally, I think that is probably the least secure. Above all else, if someone, steals my credit card info and goes on a shopping spree, I don’t pay a dime for that loss. If someone steals my cash, it’s all on me!

Bottom line, it's at least as safe any a traditional credit card, if not more. And a lot of security and financial institutions that know more than all of us, think it's more secure. Since it's in their best interest to go with the most secure measures, I'll take their opinion.

chscag
09-12-2014, 02:56 PM
And a lot of security and financial institutions that know more than all of us, think it's more secure. Since it's in their best interest to go with the most secure measures, I'll take their opinion.

My bank, Wells Fargo, put out a customer bulletin this morning stating that they had partnered with Apple in using the new iPhone 6 for all credit and debit transactions.

The current credit and debit cards issued by US banks and financial institutions are susceptible to fraud and duplication. The European banks issue credit and debit cards with an embedded chip which makes it more difficult to duplicate. This new system will actually be even more secure. The only drawback that I see is having to outlay for a new phone in order to use it.

dbm
09-13-2014, 03:33 AM
I don't think that's a an issue relevant to this discussion since you'll just have the one NFC device, your phone, being used on a terminal. I suppose if your wallet is extremely close to the reader at the same time for some reason it would be an issue, but not really.

One of the sources of paranoia is that a person can walk up to you and read you NFC card in your pocket; my point was that this is impractical in reality as most people have multiple cards close together. With the phone it should be a completely non-risk as you need to touch the TouchID button before the response is sent.


NFC has been hacked and so many different people have written about it (source (http://www.slideshare.net/Shakacon/hacking-the-nfc-credit-cards-for-fun-and-debit-by-renaud-lifchitz) and source (http://www.amongtech.com/apps-use-nfc-technology-to-hack-credit-card-credentials/) for example). I'm not sure why anyone thinks Apple has somehow secured a technology that has been, without question, shown to be inherently unsecure. On top of that, this is Apple - a company that's snail slow at responding to the few security breaches its experienced (Flashback/Java and iCloud for example). I'm not sure I'd be putting my faith in another insecure technology to manage my credit especially when that company is awfully slow at responding to security issues.

It was explained in the Keynote that the ApplePay process generates a single-use token for the transaction, and it is that which is sent via NFC. So it is irrelevant if the communication layer is compromised, as you can't use the intercepted information for a second transaction.

TattooedMac
09-13-2014, 06:21 AM
It was explained in the Keynote that the ApplePay process generates a single-use token for the transaction, and it is that which is sent via NFC. So it is irrelevant if the communication layer is compromised, as you can't use the intercepted information for a second transaction.

And again in the link Chas posted

The app uses chip and pin technology, instead of the magnets that credit cards currently use, to keep information secure. The chip generates a one-time authorization code for each purchase and the pin is the unique number a consumer will have to tap into a retailer's credit card reader for each purchase. This technology is considered more secure than the magnetic stripe technology used on most credit cards.

Apple Pay trumps traditional credit & debit cards: MasterCard SVP - Yahoo Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-apple-pay-is-a-safer--more-secure-way-to-purchase-products-180109776.html)

chas_m
09-13-2014, 07:11 AM
If anyone believes Apple’s method is any more secure, it is a construct of their own imagination, because nobody is claiming that.

I'm confused. Why do you say this (above) here, but contradict yourself later in the same post? "No one is claiming this" -- except every single partner Apple has teamed up with, as you yourself cite later.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/14/09/12/apple.gets.015.percent.cut.of.purchases.does.not.a ffect.purchase.price/



Bottom line, it's at least as safe any a traditional credit card, if not more. And a lot of security and financial institutions that know more than all of us, think it's more secure. Since it's in their best interest to go with the most secure measures, I'll take their opinion.


Exactly.

chas_m
09-13-2014, 07:20 AM
The only drawback that I see is having to outlay for a new phone in order to use it.


You don't.

First, some merchants (perhaps many of those who also support Apple Pay) can, using the same terminals, also support an alternative NFC-based system being promoted by Walmart, Best Buy and others. This alternate platform is able to use an app-based system, so it works with android phones and older Apple phones etc.

Second, users of the Apple Watch can use Apple Pay without needing an iPhone 6. Such people can use the iPhone 5 or higher. Of course that means buying an Apple Watch, but I'm just pointing out alternatives. Merchants can and already do support multiple technologies in payment terminals.

chas_m
09-13-2014, 07:33 AM
It was explained in the Keynote that the ApplePay process generates a single-use token for the transaction, and it is that which is sent via NFC. So it is irrelevant if the communication layer is compromised, as you can't use the intercepted information for a second transaction.


Hush now, dbm! VanSmith is far smarter than, say, MasterCard on what is and isn't secure! He has sources! Apple would never encrypt everything end-to-end, they're stupid!

Nevermind that he doesn't appear to know the details of how Apple Pay actually works, it's NFC! Its a security nightmare! Sources!!

As it's so easy to hack, I'm sure he'll be retiring from here soon, with all the easy money he's purloined from those hapless Apple Pay fools. Who could blame him? A child could do it!

http://www.macnn.com/articles/14/09/12/apple.gets.015.percent.cut.of.purchases.does.not.a ffect.purchase.price/

Bah! What does the Financial Times know!

vansmith
09-13-2014, 12:03 PM
Sarcasm and passive aggression...yeah, that's not necessary. At no point did I make this personal and I'd suggest that you refrain from making personal criticisms when someone critiques the company that you, as you so often demonstrate, blindly follow. Let's keep to the argument/topic at hand now okay? Can you refrain from personal criticisms when people critique the company that you so dearly love?

I don't think having reservations about a wireless payment systems predicated on using a technology that has been hacked and has been developed by a company with molasses slow responses to security issues is wrong. If you disagree, so be it. Suggesting that being concerned about spreading my credit info across devices (let's consider my wallet a device here for a moment) is daft (by implication) just goes to show that you either have blind faith in Apple or don't actually care all that much about security.

And really, citing an Apple fan website as a source...? You know who has great reviews of Toyotas? toyotafannews.com.

Listen, I'm not arguing that Apple's system is more insecure than any other. In fact, I think all NFC systems are all susceptible to risks and from what I've heard, Apple has worked hard to secure their system in light of some of these issues. However, given what I've repeated numerous times about Apple's lethargic response to security issues, having some doubt about their commitment to keeping the info safe is a perfectly reasonable response. If you can demonstrate to me that Apple isn't going to "Apple up" their response to inevitable hacks of this system, I'm happy to concede that it's probably okay.

chscag
09-13-2014, 04:03 PM
You don't.

First, some merchants (perhaps many of those who also support Apple Pay) can, using the same terminals, also support an alternative NFC-based system being promoted by Walmart, Best Buy and others. This alternate platform is able to use an app-based system, so it works with android phones and older Apple phones etc.

I think that will be decided by the issuer of your credit - whomever that might be. I mentioned above that my bank (Wells Fargo) has partnered with Apple. The way I read their customer bulletin is that they will require the iPhone 6 before allowing you to make payments via NFC. I might be wrong on that and it could very well be a Wells Fargo only requirement.

chas_m
09-13-2014, 07:03 PM
And really, citing an Apple fan website as a source...?

The article is drawn from information in The Financial Times. Read the source article if you prefer, but it seems obvious you still haven't actually read up on the details.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7ffa706e-3a63-11e4-bd08-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=intl

And speaking of "fan" sites -- a lot of your "sources" have been fan sites. Just sayin'.



Listen, I'm not arguing that Apple's system is more insecure than any other. In fact, I think all NFC systems are all susceptible to risks and from what I've heard, Apple has worked hard to secure their system in light of some of these issues.

So why not just read the article and explain to all us plebians where the obvious flaw in Apple's setup is. My point -- which you still haven't addressed -- is that the issuers, banks and partners all seem to be under the impression that Apple's system is *more secure* than existing systems, including other NFC-based payment systems, chip-and-pin and of course the existing US-centric "mag stripe only" system. I would have thought that they would know more about this than you, but you keep inferring that the system isn't secure.

So now that someone has gone to the trouble of hand-serving you the details of Apple Pay that you could have easily looked up yourself, either point out where they've gone wrong or acknowledge what the financial institutions have said is correct. Stop injecting FUD based on "what you've heard" and actually read up on it.

RustProofCorn
09-13-2014, 08:18 PM
"So no one told you life was gonna be this way *Clap Clap Clap Clap*"

OK on a serious note chas m are you saying the Apple watch is going to have NFC? So with my Iphone 5s would i be able to use apple pay via the watch? No taking my phone out of my pocket at all? If so that is cool man.

I originally was going to get a 6 or 6+ but i missed pre ordering (i had decided on the +) and I kinda lost steam from there.

I just don't know if there is enough WOW to want to buy it. Maybe once i get off the Rig in a few weeks i will change my mind. My 5s is only 6 months old. Its a 64gb and i am guessing since the new phone just came out i will lose quite a bit of my money. I paid 900 bones strait from apple for it so im thinking 450. That is a big chunk to lose.

Anyhow Van and chas are hilarious. I am sure to you two maybe not but it makes me laugh. In a couple weeks you guys will read these posts and laugh too.

fleurya
09-13-2014, 09:00 PM
I'm confused. Why do you say this (above) here, but contradict yourself later in the same post? "No one is claiming this" -- except every single partner Apple has teamed up with, as you yourself cite later.

Details on Apple Pay revealed: 'safer' system, Apple gets 0.15 percent | MacNN (http://www.macnn.com/articles/14/09/12/apple.gets.015.percent.cut.of.purchases.does.not.a ffect.purchase.price/)


My response was to you comment where you said people believe Apple's form of NFC to be more secure, and that's what I was responding to. I'm not sure where you think I contradicted myself. I may have said it's more secure than traditional card systems, including magnetic strip and pin-and-chip, which is true. Also, the story you quoted to try to disprove me: it was also saying it's more secure than pin-and-chip, not rival NFC methods.

Although one could argue that a system that needs a fingerprint for payment verification is more secure than one that only needs a pin, which could be easier to obtain or guess (birthday pins, address pins and what have you) So, I would go as far as to say it could be more secure in that respect, depending on the stupidity of the user.

chas_m
09-13-2014, 10:07 PM
I wasn't trying to disprove anything you said, I agree with everything except the idea (perhaps my interpretation of what you wrote) that "nobody" has claimed that Apple Pay (which is NFC-based) is safer than other systems" -- which would be untrue. You clearly understand this so perhaps I just misinterpreted the quote.

chas_m
09-13-2014, 10:17 PM
OK on a serious note chas m are you saying the Apple watch is going to have NFC? So with my Iphone 5s would i be able to use apple pay via the watch? No taking my phone out of my pocket at all? If so that is cool man.

Yes. Tim mentioned during the keynote that Apple Pay is entirely built into Apple Watch as well, meaning you do not need an iPhone with Touch ID to use it. Here's the details on how that works:

Apple Watch Needs Skin Contact and PIN for Secure Mobile Payments | TechnoBuffalo (http://www.technobuffalo.com/2014/09/11/apple-watch-needs-skin-contact-and-pin-for-secure-mobile-payments/)

You do still need an iPhone 5 or later, but the skin+Pin system works without Touch ID.


I just don't know if there is enough WOW to want to buy it. Maybe once i get off the Rig in a few weeks i will change my mind.

In your case I would wait until you can test one in person at an Apple Store (so early next year) before buying. No reason to upgrade from an iPhone 5s that I can see unless you really need a bigger screen or really love the optimal image stabilization in the 6 Plus.


Anyhow Van and chas are hilarious. I am sure to you two maybe not but it makes me laugh.

Van's a great guy and a valuable asset to the Mac-Forums family. We butt heads on this or that but agree on lots of stuff too. I'm sure if we met in person we'd be good pals. I just (occasionally) find him blind to his own biases -- and over-critical of mine! :D

RustProofCorn
09-13-2014, 10:32 PM
I tried to watch the entire Keynote but i am on a drilling rig right now where time and bandwidth is limited.

Thanks for the valuable information.

Pasco08
09-14-2014, 04:45 PM
Apple is trying to catch up with Samsung and is now trying to enter the phablet market. Welcome to 2014 though most of the "new" features the IPhone 6 has are honestly not new at all.

RustProofCorn
09-14-2014, 05:29 PM
Apple is trying to catch up with Samsung and is now trying to enter the phablet market. Welcome to 2014 though most of the "new" features the IPhone 6 has are honestly not new at all.

I am sure we will never see you again since your just a troll.

I kinda think it is funny you say in your post that Apple is playing catch up with Samsung entering the Phablet market (which is a new feature to Apple) and then turn right around and say their new features for the iPhone 6 are honestly not that new.

To me as far as the S5 is concerned it looks like Samsung may have taken a play out of Apples book. If your making a boat load of cash and it isn't broke why fix it. There is a S4vsS5 Comparison below.

Samsung Galaxy S5 vs Samsung Galaxy S4 - Phone specs comparison (http://www.phonearena.com/phones/compare/Samsung-Galaxy-S5,Samsung-Galaxy-S4/phones/8202,7597)

chas_m
09-15-2014, 08:04 AM
Apple is taking Samsung's poorly-implemented features (like the fingerprint sensor that almost never works) and doing them correctly -- and is now trying to recruit Android users to switch by making a large phone for people who have to compensate.

There, fixed that for you.

dtravis7
09-15-2014, 08:26 AM
But you changed his words misquoting him.

I still say unless you wear Saggers down to your knees, a almost 6" phone will not fit in any pants pocket I would wear. I don't care who makes it and I am not a lady and not carrying a hand bag either! :D Grin

Nethfel
09-15-2014, 10:59 AM
A rather interesting discussion so far.

I've watched the keynote, read several articles, etc. I will say I was glad to see some of the changes made to the phones. Do I think that this new phone is revolutionary? No, more like a evolutionary step for the iPhone. Apple has a long history of taking and improving on (let's face it, there were smart phones long before the first iPhone) other peoples technology and ideas. It's not a bad way to do business, as it allows one to see what does and doesn't work then make it better. Apple obviously needed proof that a larger phone was in demand - they got it so they made it. There is no huge awesome new technology in this phone that is being released - it's really just an improvement.

NFC - been around. Apple may have improved its potential in the new phone; I honestly don't know. Unfortunately, there is only one place in my town I could possibly use it (Subway) (the mcd's here is disgusting) so I probably wouldn't use it a lot.

Larger screens - been around. Apple has improved their devices by offering larger screens. I honestly think they should have come out with 3 sizes and dropped the 5 line. Like a 6s, 6m and 6l (or 6+) where they share the same processor and features and the differences are only the screen sizes to accommodate those that like the small medium and large size phones.

Thinner phones - Apple has honestly always been the master on thin devices; but it's really also looking at what other companies do and making it better.

Fingerprint scanner - more of a convenience lock then hugely secure. It can be hacked as just about every other fingerprint scanner can using the same methodologies.

Really there isn't much new that can be put into a mobile phone - improvements yes (screen, battery, CPU, GPU, storage, etc.) - but actual new groundbreaking technology; unless someone comes up with something, we're probably not going to see a lot of new hardware based features - software is what will make a bigger difference than hardware for a while IMHO.

The watch is kinda cool. I may get one next year as I've been looking for something that would do walking, biking, heart rate, act as a watch, etc. and I just haven't been thrilled by what is on the market currently. Samsung watch is kinda nice, but up there in price like the Apple watch.

I also agree with Van that Apple and Security have not historically gone well together in that they tend to be slow in fixing flaws so some of the new features (ie: NFC) I probably wouldn't use even if I had the opportunity unless I had it tied to a very low limit CC.

All this said, I will say I have pre ordered a 6 (not plus) - my existing phone (Samsung S3) is having all kinds of problems since the latest update to kit kat so it was an opportune moment for me to get a new phone and the main reason I had switched away from Apple iPhone was the screen size (my eyes aren't the greatest, but I can't stand the size of something like the Note2/3/iPhone 6+) and now that Apple has a phone in a size that I like I'll be going back. I won't be using NFC unless I get an attach a low limit CC to it so if it is compromised I wouldn't be out potentially what my main CC's are (then again, with only Subway to use it at, I probably won't use it anyway ;) ).

To sum up - IMHO; TL;DR: The new iPhone 6 is a minor evolutionary step from the 5s (except maybe the sapphire glass, not sure on that yet). Biggest changes will be in the iOS for now. Apple needs to to better handle security issues promptly. I am an iPhone 6 owner (just not in my hands until the 19th) but I don't think it was an earth moving announcement.

lclev
09-15-2014, 02:01 PM
Are you comparing Touch ID to the Samsung fingerprint thing? If so, hoo boy are you in for a pleasant surprise! Touch ID is so far superior it's not even funny.

Not sure why you would think that styluses don't work on iPhones if one wants to use them. Me, I dictate most things.

Well I can only hope. I had a finger print scanner on an HP laptop, also on an Alienware laptop along with face recognition - very frustrating. Never even considered it on any of my Samsung phones - just turned it off. Seems my finger prints are hard to read. I have this on authority from my local sheriff and education department - and before you all start wondering just why I have my finger prints scanned....I am a retired teacher and have to be background checked if I plan to sub and it has to be done every year. It takes multiple tries using various techniques to readable prints. So I would love it if Apple created a superior scanner.

I know that a stylus will work on the iPhone, but I love the fact my note has it integrated into the phone and I can slide it out to use it. As to dictation...not practical in the grocery store when I am looking at a list of what I need. Just a preference. I am sure if I want the iPhone bad enough I can work around it.

Lisa

lclev
09-15-2014, 02:03 PM
But you changed his words misquoting him.

I still say unless you wear Saggers down to your knees, a almost 6" phone will not fit in any pants pocket I would wear. I don't care who makes it and I am not a lady and not carrying a hand bag either! :D Grin

Hum... I am a lady with a handbag but my 5.5" note 2 rides just fine in my back pocket of my jeans. And they are not down to my knees. Just sayin' ;D

Lisa

chscag
09-15-2014, 02:34 PM
Hum... I am a lady with a handbag but my 5.5" note 2 rides just fine in my back pocket of my jeans. And they are not down to my knees. Just sayin' ;D

Lisa

LOL, my wife won't wear jeans but she has a handbag that weighs a ton! I guess that's why she wants the 6+ to add to the weight. What's a real laugh is when her phone rings and she can't find it in her handbag soon enough to avoid a missed call. Maybe with the 6+ it'll be easier to find. :P

lclev
09-15-2014, 03:29 PM
LOL, my wife won't wear jeans but she has a handbag that weighs a ton! I guess that's why she wants the 6+ to add to the weight. What's a real laugh is when her phone rings and she can't find it in her handbag soon enough to avoid a missed call. Maybe with the 6+ it'll be easier to find. :P

You laugh but I bet when you need something she has it in her purse. ;D

I didn't come from a generation that wore jeans to shop or work in but 30 years as a vocational/shop teacher converted me. A lot of items road in my jeans pockets over the years. Adding a phone to my back pocket has not been a problem.

That said I am not sure if it will be the 6 or 6+ yet. I want to hold one first.

Lisa

dtravis7
09-15-2014, 04:12 PM
I wear size 30 Levis and the front pockets where I want the phone really are tight with even my old 3GS. I can not imagine a almost 6" phone. Back pockets where I live are dangerous as I have been almost pick pocketed many times from the back. I can feel people getting close and spin around and see their hand reaching for my wallet! After that i stopped putting the wallet in the back pocket! :D

One of the Pocket Pickers was a 12 year old kid! He was shocked when I spun around and grabbed his arm! :D

WolfsBane
09-15-2014, 04:45 PM
The thing that I don't get is how a Lady thats all of 5'6" can carry a huge purse, and about 60lbs in it. I laugh every time I hold my Honey's purse, because the thing is definitely not lite. :Smirk:

Well, I'm one of those iPhone owners that is in a holding pattern. I won't purchase an iPhone 6 plus until I've had a chance to hold one in my hands, and until I find more comparison information with other phones in the market. I've already read some things for, and against, but it seems to be all speculation. And there seems to be enough question marks regarding the iPhone 6 plus to warrant my taking it slow and making sure of my next mobile phone decision. Will have to wait anyway since shipping for the iPhone 6 plus seems to have slid into November if you order one now.

lclev
09-16-2014, 04:15 PM
Well, I'm one of those iPhone owners that is in a holding pattern. I won't purchase an iPhone 6 plus until I've had a chance to hold one in my hands, and until I find more comparison information with other phones in the market. I've already read some things for, and against, but it seems to be all speculation. And there seems to be enough question marks regarding the iPhone 6 plus to warrant my taking it slow and making sure of my next mobile phone decision. Will have to wait anyway since shipping for the iPhone 6 plus seems to have slid into November if you order one now.

I agree. I almost pre-ordered but decided to wait since I still can't make up my mind on which one. I also want to see how the first ones shake out and how owners are liking them...or if there are any problems. Plus my carrier says 4-6 weeks on the iPhone 6+ so I can wait.

Lisa

chscag
09-16-2014, 05:24 PM
I may have been given a reprieve by my wife. She bought a new living room couch converter bed yesterday. ($$$) That put a dent in our budget for the month of September. Waiting is probably what we'll do for now. O:)

pigoo3
09-16-2014, 05:40 PM
I may have been given a reprieve by my wife. She bought a new living room couch converter bed yesterday. ($$$) That put a dent in our budget for the month of September. Waiting is probably what we'll do for now. O:)

I'm still betting on Santa Claus for you!;)

- Nick

lclev
09-16-2014, 09:24 PM
New dilemma - my carrier is offering a leasing program. I am not sure I like the idea though.

This is for the iPhone 6+ I have a choice:
1. pay $299.99 and 2 yr contract
2. $31.25 for 24 months and I own the phone at the end
3. lease by paying $25 extra per month for 24 months and at the end continue to pay the $25/mo or turn in the phone for the newest, latest, greatest or buy the phone for an as yet undisclosed amount.

One interesting note - they are offering an unlimited talk, txt, and data plan for $50/mo.

I tend to do option #1 then pass my old phone on to a family member or recycle it. I come out money ahead. The other options seems to make way more money for the carrier.

Too many choices but I have time. Looks like a 4-6 week wait on the 6+ which I have pretty much decided on.

Lisa

fleurya
09-16-2014, 11:46 PM
Hum... I am a lady with a handbag but my 5.5" note 2 rides just fine in my back pocket of my jeans. And they are not down to my knees. Just sayin' ;D

Lisa

I can't believe people keep their expensive phones in their back pockets! Not only is there the issue of potentially breaking it if you sit on a hard surface, but a phone that size must at least stick out a little, which just screams "STEAL ME!" to pickpockets.

Chris H.
09-17-2014, 06:16 PM
On a deviated side note; anyone getting repeated updates on the same apps? o.O

lclev
09-18-2014, 11:10 PM
I can't believe people keep their expensive phones in their back pockets! Not only is there the issue of potentially breaking it if you sit on a hard surface, but a phone that size must at least stick out a little, which just screams "STEAL ME!" to pickpockets.

I usually only put my phone in my back pocket when I am at work where we use them to txt info when I am in different parts of the building. Otherwise it is in my purse. I also wear long shirts so it is covered. I don't tend to have a "print" showing when it is in my back pocket.

Lisa

Afrormosia
09-19-2014, 01:29 PM
One of the most perceptive technology reviewers is John Naughton in The Observer newspaper (published on Sundays in the UK). His view of the Apple iPhone 6 launch is at the following link:

How the iPhone 6 literally pays for itself | Technology | The Observer (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/14/iphone-6-literally-pays-for-itself)

What I found really interesting was his view, as with many of you, that the iPhone 6 is incremental but that the real advance for Apple was Apple Pay. Given that Apple is doing deals with Visa, Mastercard and the bank networks to have the iPhone used as a payment mechanism gives Apple the opportunity to negotiate a kickback from these providers for part of the value of every transaction which the iPhone is used for. The percentage only has to be very small for Apple to have a significant income stream.

WolfsBane
09-19-2014, 09:42 PM
One of the most perceptive technology reviewers is John Naughton in The Observer newspaper (published on Sundays in the UK). His view of the Apple iPhone 6 launch is at the following link:

How the iPhone 6 literally pays for itself | Technology | The Observer (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/14/iphone-6-literally-pays-for-itself)

What I found really interesting was his view, as with many of you, that the iPhone 6 is incremental but that the real advance for Apple was Apple Pay. Given that Apple is doing deals with Visa, Mastercard and the bank networks to have the iPhone used as a payment mechanism gives Apple the opportunity to negotiate a kickback from these providers for part of the value of every transaction which the iPhone is used for. The percentage only has to be very small for Apple to have a significant income stream.

Its a very good business decision if they can implement and maintain the safety and security safeguards correctly.

chscag
09-19-2014, 10:24 PM
Its a very good business decision if they can implement and maintain the safety and security safeguards correctly.

Boy, do I ever agree with that! All it will take is a Target or Home Depot type security breech for everything to go to the pits real fast. Let's hope Apple and their partners have got their act together. ;)

chas_m
09-20-2014, 05:15 AM
If you're wondering about it, the Financial Times has broken it down in detail. The TL;DR version is that Apple's system is considerably safer than any system presently in use. This is not the same thing as saying it is perfect, impervious and foolproof, but I have to say I can't find any flaws in what they've described, and again it seems to be a big improvement on the far-more-fallible systems we have in place now.

Details on Apple Pay revealed: 'safer' system, Apple gets 0.15 percent | MacNN (http://www.macnn.com/articles/14/09/12/apple.gets.015.percent.cut.of.purchases.does.not.a ffect.purchase.price/)