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RavingMac
10-22-2013, 04:18 PM
Only the 13in non-retina remains in the Apple Store (other than refurbs). So if you want one better get it while they are still available.

cwa107
10-22-2013, 04:55 PM
Bummer. This will likely be my last Apple notebook.

dtravis7
10-22-2013, 04:58 PM
I was just coming to post this. Very sad. So Chris, what will you do when your MBP wears out? I feel the same way you do BTW. Bugs me.

Raz0rEdge
10-22-2013, 05:03 PM
I wish they would kept the upgradability of the non-Retina MBP in the rMBP, especially if they are getting rid of the non-Retina option. Forcing people to pay the higher prices for the upgrades is tough to swallow..

dtravis7
10-22-2013, 05:06 PM
Agree completely. If you purchase one you better get all the RAM you will ever need as you can never upgrade it. The SSD can be with at least OWC options, but still a pain.

pigoo3
10-22-2013, 05:07 PM
I figured this day was coming. Kind of like when Apple did away with the "matte" display on laptops...and got rid of the 17" MacBook Pro.

- Nick

dtravis7
10-22-2013, 05:10 PM
I figured this day was coming. Kind of like when Apple did away with the "matte" display on laptops...and got rid of the 17" MacBook Pro.

- Nick

That was the first thing I went and checked after Apple updated their page and store. I was sort of expecting it just not this soon. Well Nick, you and I will have to buy up all the old MBPs and keep them for a rainy day! :D Grin

pigoo3
10-22-2013, 05:19 PM
Well Nick, you and I will have to buy up all the old MBPs and keep them for a rainy day! :D Grin

Yes sir. It will probably still be a good while before I own a retina MacBook Pro.

My two Early 2011 MacBook Pro's are just getting "warmed up" in terms of their lifespan with me!;)

- Nick

cwa107
10-22-2013, 05:22 PM
The Retina MacBook Pro doesn't do anything for me. I actually don't want a screen that's that high res - too many pixels to push around with little net benefit. I also don't want my notebook glued together and my memory soldered fast. So I'm choosing to vote with my wallet.

Next time around it will likely be a Dell XPS MacBook Pro clone (a buddy of mine has one of these and it's almost identical to my machine physically - it just has a few more ports). I can't say what OS I'll run on it, but I will say it won't be Windows 8.1 or any variety of Linux.

pigoo3
10-22-2013, 05:26 PM
The Retina MacBook Pro doesn't do anything for me. I actually don't want a screen that's that high res - too many pixels to push around with little net benefit. I also don't want my notebook glued together and my memory soldered fast.

Definitely a lot of limitations. In some ways an iPad with a keyboard (without the benefits of a touchscreen).;)

- Nick

dtravis7
10-22-2013, 05:27 PM
The Retina MacBook Pro doesn't do anything for me. I actually don't want a screen that's that high res - too many pixels to push around with little net benefit. I also don't want my notebook glued together and my memory soldered fast. So I'm choosing to vote with my wallet.

Next time around it will likely be a Dell XPS MacBook Pro clone (a buddy of mine has one of these and it's almost identical to my machine physically - it just has a few more ports). I can't say what OS I'll run on it, but I will say it won't be Windows 8.1 or any variety of Linux.

:D Grin at Chris! I hear you buddy!

My friends wife might sell me her 13" last model MBP. She keeps her stuff Mint and usually cuts the price for me. I might go for it.

cwa107
10-22-2013, 05:32 PM
Definitely a lot of limitations. In some ways an iPad with a keyboard (without the benefits of a touchscreen).;)

- Nick

I stand by my assessment of it when it first came out.... it's a 15" MacBook Air. Why they didn't call it that and just leave the 'Pro' for those of us who actually work professionally on computers, I'll never understand. I could care less if it's 1/4" thinner than my MacBook Pro.

dtravis7
10-22-2013, 05:35 PM
Again agree. It's really not a PRO machine.

pigoo3
10-22-2013, 05:35 PM
I stand by my assessment of it when it first came out.... it's a 15" MacBook Air.

That's probably a better analogy.:)

- Nick

chscag
10-22-2013, 07:26 PM
I agree with Chris. When I have to pay $2600 to get a Mac notebook with discrete graphics, it's time to move on. And I'm not impressed with the retina screen either. I believe the 27" iMac, current, or last several previous models are probably the best value from Apple right now.

Yes Chris, that Dell XPS does look pretty good. And it'll run Windows 7 just fine.... :)

dtravis7
10-22-2013, 07:34 PM
With so many here going back to the PC Hardware, I wonder what will become of Mac Forums! :D

I love the new iPads as far as Tablets go, but most of the new Macs just don't move me at all.

MacDude121
10-22-2013, 09:02 PM
Agree with most of what has been said here, I can't help but feel as though Apple is moving in a direction that I'm just not willing to follow. The word "Pro" should not be a label to any of their computers at this point.

My friends call it a "$1000 Facebook Machine" and honestly, I don't disagree with them anymore.


Sorry Apple, I've been saying you needed to clean up your act since the Airs came out and you killed off the White MacBook, I saw this coming from miles away and you know what, I was right. Time to move on.

Checco
10-23-2013, 03:12 AM
I tend to disagree with you guys.


Iris is not what discrete used to be, Google for benchmarks and tests, you'll be surprised. Processor speeds have also come down - is this a bad thing? No, sometimes "less" is actually more.
A Retina display is the way of the future. Like it or not, your 52" home TV will also eventually be Retina. For those who prefer CRT, I'm sure you'll still find one somewhere.
Max. out RAM from the start. Okay, it costs a little more, but...so does anything else from Apple.
SSD. Also the way of the future. Apple Care will cover anything that fails and as the rMBPs become more popular, more alternatives will become available. I'm guessing compatibility between rMBPs will be good. When I look at the 13" MBP listed with it's HDD, I for one can't help thinking that I'm looking at a relic.
Pricing has come down, this is a good thing. If I compare what I paid for a mid-2012 MBP with hi-res screen, 8GB RAM and 750GB HDD, I think the stock rMBP at $1,999 is very well-priced, considering the display and SSD.
Unfortunately, change is part of the world, particularly in sectors like these. The traditional PC as we know it, be it desktop or portable is changing. Cue the iPad with a 64-bit processor and we can expect to see a merge of the two sooner rather than later.
I think a Pro user is defined by someone who requires performance, rather than someone who likes to get under the hood. For someone with a non-Pro requirement, but likes to tinker, the 13" MBP remains for now. And for the true Pro, there's the new Mac Pro, which at the size and form factor is actually quite portable.


Personally, I'd go out and get one now, just difficult to justify with a one-year old MBP15 sitting in my rucksack.

Anyway, that's my 5 cents'...

dtravis7
10-23-2013, 03:53 AM
Ok I will bite. What is the RAM that is SOLDERED in dies? You say Ram never dies? I am a computer tech and can show you RAM dying. What if it happens right after Apple care is gone? You have a paperweight! Not everyone can afford Apples prices every 2 years. SSD is the future but this is not a true SSD, small card that is not sold most places. GLUED in battery. Have fun fixing it.

Checco
10-23-2013, 04:41 AM
Dennis,

it's not a matter of biting, I'm putting forward a reasonable argument.

With Apple Care (which I think is a good idea on products of this type), I would say all parts will be covered for the reasonable part of the product's life.

Considering electronics, for sure any component can fail. Let's look at it: so can the CPU, GPU, jeez, even a single cap can fail on the board - and I'm not sure that RAM will be more susceptible to failure. Looking at electronics, you typically expect to see a bathtub failure curve, which means that you will be covered for the initial high "infant-mortality" phase and well into the "flat" part of the curve. On the contrary, with a factory-controlled specification, you have less chance of failure. I'm pretty sure Apple studies these statistics quite carefully.

We design and manufacture electronic systems (using ARM, Microchip) at our company and our most reliable systems by a long way are those designed to be purpose-specific, with no removable components.

I think that we're used to an old way of doing things and we need to adapt our view (I'm relatively new to Macs, but have been tinkering with PCs since the early '90s).

dtravis7
10-23-2013, 04:59 AM
Also I make my living fixing computers. Fun stuff when that stops. Oh well. :D

Checco
10-23-2013, 05:10 AM
Hopefully it'll change rather than stop! Repair of boards that do fail out of Apple Care (or due to user fault) may provide opportunity. The chips are smaller and the soldering tools change, but the job can be done. I see local guys repairing phones that I would've thought were fit for retirement.

Other things like the glued-in battery should also create opportunity...

ScaryFatKidGT
10-23-2013, 06:01 AM
So where can you still get them? I really wanted the glossy hi-res display... :(

cwa107
10-23-2013, 10:04 AM
Dennis,

it's not a matter of biting, I'm putting forward a reasonable argument.

With Apple Care (which I think is a good idea on products of this type), I would say all parts will be covered for the reasonable part of the product's life.

Considering electronics, for sure any component can fail. Let's look at it: so can the CPU, GPU, jeez, even a single cap can fail on the board - and I'm not sure that RAM will be more susceptible to failure. Looking at electronics, you typically expect to see a bathtub failure curve, which means that you will be covered for the initial high "infant-mortality" phase and well into the "flat" part of the curve. On the contrary, with a factory-controlled specification, you have less chance of failure. I'm pretty sure Apple studies these statistics quite carefully.

We design and manufacture electronic systems (using ARM, Microchip) at our company and our most reliable systems by a long way are those designed to be purpose-specific, with no removable components.

I think that we're used to an old way of doing things and we need to adapt our view (I'm relatively new to Macs, but have been tinkering with PCs since the early '90s).

I agree with most of your arguments but not your overall premise, consider this....

All of these compromises are made to achieve a hair thinner form-factor, which I can guarantee you that few true professionals care about. That is the only net benefit - well, that and ensuring a shorter overall service life, which pads Apple's already fat bottom line.

I object to paying more money for a less serviceable machine. Period.

V6Pony
10-23-2013, 10:52 AM
I think I could change hardware with no problem. I certainly like to tinker with everything and don't go along with the new Apple MBP. But God I love OS X it's just the best. Not sure it can be replaced. I would go with some form of linux or bsd I guess. Just not sure what would make me happy in a OS. I have a 2010 MBP I7 core. So I'm good for a bit. Perhaps some option will show up in the next year or so. As it stands now I just can't see tossing down $2700 to replace my MBP that has a limited life.

I'm very sad about the options Apple has left me.

dtravis7
10-23-2013, 10:55 AM
V6Pony, I 100% agree with you on OSX. There is nothing out there that can truly replace it for me. That is what makes this all so hard.

iggibar
10-23-2013, 11:16 AM
As long as my 15" is alive and kicking, I won't have to say goodbye to anything.

V6Pony
10-23-2013, 11:26 AM
V6Pony, I 100% agree with you on OSX. There is nothing out there that can truly replace it for me. That is what makes this all so hard.

I have heard there is a version of linux that is trying to be like OS X. But that is all I know at this point. I think OS X is based on Darwin BSD. I would like to find a close version.

osxx
10-23-2013, 11:43 AM
My major complaint is you can only get Apple Care for 3yrs and it is technically no-user upgradeable or repairable thats a lot of money for a 3 yr guarantee they either need to drop the price a lot more ,include Apple Care or extend it to 4yr.

MYmacROX
10-23-2013, 03:53 PM
I agree with most of what's been said about phasing out 15" non-retina MBP. It was the first thing I thought of last night when watching the video and initially I was sorely disappointed.

HOWEVER... the people I see having a true dilemma are the pros who need the power machines. Good points have been brought up about repair and upgrading RAM and internal storage. Maybe many of those individuals will move away from Apple notebooks. Time will tell.

Most average users will be able to get by with a MBA once prices and specs and tech adjust in the next couple of yrs. **Moore's law** Also, someone like myself won't even need a notebook 5 yrs from now The iPad will keep getting better and iCloud functionality will improve. My iMac will be my main storage hub and my iPad will be my point of access. Everything is saved to the cloud and synced to my iMac. More affordable than a new MBP.

Well, that's just my take and I could be missing a few things. I'm no expert. :) It's just how I see things progressing in the next half decade. *shrug*

dtravis7
10-23-2013, 04:09 PM
MyMacRox, the one thing many are missing is what CWA brought out yesterday. The MBP IS supposed to be a Machine for Pros. MBP means Macbook Pro. It was a portable PRO machine and since the retnia really is a glorified better Air. That is what is bugging us. It's still a good machine if you ignore the upgrade part, but it's really no longer a Pro machine to us.

chscag
10-23-2013, 04:17 PM
Well, that's just my take and I could be missing a few things. I'm no expert. It's just how I see things progressing in the next half decade. *shrug*

I agree. I put aside my desire for another portable Mac and instead have decided to get a 27" iMac to replace my 21.5" 2011 model. I'm not sure I would spring for another iPad though. My iPad 3 will have to last for another year at least. My next tablet will likely not be from Apple. There are just too many other great choices which are more economical and as far as I'm concerned just as good.

cwa107
10-23-2013, 04:47 PM
My iPad 3 will have to last for another year at least. My next tablet will likely not be from Apple. There are just too many other great choices which are more economical and as far as I'm concerned just as good.

Before you get too caught up in that mindset, be sure to try out a non-Apple tablet. And I mean, from anyone - Microsoft, Acer, ASUS, you name it...

What you'll find is that though the hardware may be roughly equivalent, the software is a whole 'nother story.

Most Android tablet apps are blown-up phone apps that haven't been optimized for tablets, and even when they are, they're not made for a specific screen size. Beyond that, Android apps, in general, are rarely as well made as their iOS counterparts because of the extent of Android fragmentation and the Java-based SDK, which is designed around the theory of programming for the least common denominator (in terms of hardware).

The Surface RT is a joke, because frankly, there's just a paltry selection of half-baked HTML5 apps. The Surface Pro might be a bit more appealing because it can run Windows apps, but then, most of those are not made to be touch-centric, so the experience is subpar.

Apple really has a good thing going with the iPad, and though I agree that they could be a bit more economical, particularly with the higher capacity versions (+$100 increments for storage is laughable in this day and age when a 128GB SSD is less than $100), the quality of the software more than makes up for the price difference. And after all, we buy these things to run software. So, if the software sucks, what's the point?

iggibar
10-23-2013, 06:17 PM
Most Android tablet apps are blown-up phone apps that haven't been optimized for tablets, and even when they are, they're not made for a specific screen size. Beyond that, Android apps, in general, are rarely as well made as their iOS counterparts because of the extent of Android fragmentation and the Java-based SDK, which is designed around the theory of programming for the least common denominator (in terms of hardware).

The Surface RT is a joke, because frankly, there's just a paltry selection of half-baked HTML5 apps. The Surface Pro might be a bit more appealing because it can run Windows apps, but then, most of those are not made to be touch-centric, so the experience is subpar.

Apple really has a good thing going with the iPad, and though I agree that they could be a bit more economical, particularly with the higher capacity versions (+$100 increments for storage is laughable in this day and age when a 128GB SSD is less than $100), the quality of the software more than makes up for the price difference. And after all, we buy these things to run software. So, if the software sucks, what's the point?

Though I love my Android phone(Note 3), your statement about all the other tablets is just about spot on. The only other tablet I enjoyed owning, besides the 1st gen iPad I used to have, was the BlackBerry Playbook. It was nice, easy to use, but it's getting old now, and didn't have as large of an app marketplace selection. Everything else is garbage in my opinion, and they're just trying to hard to make something work/be something it isn't. Most of those other tablets are also so difficult to work around in terms of UI, and it's just not a comfortable experience. This is especially evident when you are trying to lure new buyers by letting them play with your display models. And then "smart" people will try to spin that around as being a positive attribute.

Back to the Retina MBP models. I actually think people are way over exaggerating the "upgrade" abilities that no longer exist. If someone was serious about using high amount of ram, they would just get it stock from Apple with high amount of ram...or storage space(with the ability of being able to self-upgrade in the future). There's really not that much of a trade off in my opinion. If you compare the performance specs of today's MBP to those of not that long ago, the performance difference is worthy on its own. I don't even know of normal(average Joes) people who use more than 8gb of ram in their personal computers. All the ones I know who do have more than 8gb of ram work in design or advertising.

As for fixability...yeah, nothing much to argue about there. It's a pretty $$$$ to fix them. That's the only thing that hurts everything for me. I have this weird thing with buying something that has very limited amount areas where I can fix it on my own. That's why I love huge tower PCs and the Mac Pro that I have.

Since I'm nowhere near to being in the market for anything new right now from Apple's line of computers, all I can do is appreciate the awesome amounts of power they are capable of delivering in such a small unit. And, knock on wood, I've never owned a laptop that has been as reliable(in all aspects) as my MBP. That same thing could also be said about 13" MBP I bought used off this forum. Just about to go on 5 years of being its owner on my 15", and still on the original battery(though it's at 55% health). I need some time to go knocking on every piece of wood I can find. :)

Checco
10-24-2013, 03:59 AM
Sorry, I just can't get my head around the rMBP not being a Pro machine. Why exactly is it not a Pro machine? Because:


It's slim?
It has a retina display (screams Pro to me)?
Has soldered RAM?
It has a specific (fast) SSD?
Is the performance any less than the standard MBP?
It uses Iris on the lower-end model?


Or maybe, please define what constitutes a Pro machine.

ScaryFatKidGT
10-24-2013, 06:37 AM
My major complaint is you can only get Apple Care for 3yrs and it is technically no-user upgradeable or repairable thats a lot of money for a 3 yr guarantee they either need to drop the price a lot more ,include Apple Care or extend it to 4yr.Yeah, it is WAYYYY cheaper on iMac's, but it doesn't cover drops and stuff so I don't get it.


I agree with most of what's been said about phasing out 15" non-retina MBP. It was the first thing I thought of last night when watching the video and initially I was sorely disappointed.

HOWEVER... the people I see having a true dilemma are the pros who need the power machines. Good points have been brought up about repair and upgrading RAM and internal storage. Maybe many of those individuals will move away from Apple notebooks. Time will tell.

Most average users will be able to get by with a MBA once prices and specs and tech adjust in the next couple of yrs. **Moore's law** Also, someone like myself won't even need a notebook 5 yrs from now The iPad will keep getting better and iCloud functionality will improve. My iMac will be my main storage hub and my iPad will be my point of access. Everything is saved to the cloud and synced to my iMac. More affordable than a new MBP.

Well, that's just my take and I could be missing a few things. I'm no expert. :) It's just how I see things progressing in the next half decade. *shrug*Ha screw Air's and pads, it would take me 3 times as long to post this on a touchscreen tablet than on my MBP, and airs are just size for money, if you need small or just a facebook machine there good but otherwise MBP all the way.

Apple seems to be stuffing it's self in to niche corners and letting everyone else (android, samsung, microsoft) take over the rest of the market, even in phone's they refuse to make a 128gb model or put in an SD card slot and then they make iOS more like android... so people just buy inexpensive android phones or Galaxy S4's for cheap because iPhones hardly ever go on sale.

They are trying to be ahead of the times by taking stuff away, the iPad isn't that good yet, and CD's and optical disks are still used, and people will always like to replace there ram and HDD.

cwa107
10-24-2013, 09:00 AM
Sorry, I just can't get my head around the rMBP not being a Pro machine. Why exactly is it not a Pro machine? Because:


It's slim?
It has a retina display (screams Pro to me)?
Has soldered RAM?
It has a specific (fast) SSD?
Is the performance any less than the standard MBP?
It uses Iris on the lower-end model?


Or maybe, please define what constitutes a Pro machine.

These are the things that make it less than a "Pro" machine to me...


It's designed to be disposable (glued together).
It lacks an optical drive
It's compromised in terms of storage and memory expansion solely for the sake of slimness.
It has a novelty display that is of no practical use and in fact, results in diminished performance for no net benefit.

Checco
10-24-2013, 01:21 PM
These are the things that make it less than a "Pro" machine to me...


It's designed to be disposable (glued together).
It lacks an optical drive
It's compromised in terms of storage and memory expansion solely for the sake of slimness.
It has a novelty display that is of no practical use and in fact, results in diminished performance for no net benefit.


Interesting points.


Manufacturing techniques are changing - it can be a negative, but I think it provides a better overall construction. I'd certainly take a glued rMBP over a "soon-to-rattle-to-pieces" LeNovo. I'd agree on glued battery though.
Optical drives are becoming a relic, with broadband, streaming and thumb-drives that are many times the size of optical discs...their days are numbered. Not to mention write speeds. I'd bet the vast majority of people hardly use optical drives. That would be a waste of space in my view (following point).
I agree with the slimness, storage may be compromised. But: with USB3 and Thunderbolt...you lug when you need to, but when you don't you have a slim, light machine...translated = sexy machine. And sexiness is important - it's a compromise, but very important in a product. Although an engineer, I actually want sexiness in the tools I use.
I have to disagree about the display - it may have compromised performance on the first iteration, but that issue will soon disappear, if it hasn't already. A retina display is a huge step forward in personal computing, I think it's brilliant that Apple was the first - retina will eventually be a standard.


I suppose it's difficult to please everyone though, as we can see. Possibly statistics dictate that today's definition of a Pro has changed from what it used to be a few years ago.

In my case, I develop on Windows (yay) and for many different microprocessor families. I generally have 3 Fusion VM's open at any time, running XP and 7 (not a single one with 8, bald enough already!). I run them on either my 2011 iMac or 2012 15" MBP with hi-res display (both 16GB RAM) and they both laugh at the task (my MBP's fans do run quite hard in summer). In my case, without being pretentious, I'd say I am a Pro user and the rMBP would be a great tool for me: power, etc, with good screen real-estate. But that's one user in how many?

I believe that Apple genuinely tries to create the best product possible. Naturally the business case must make sense, but only the business case would lead to failure ultimately. I personally don't think we're at business-case-only at this point.

Maybe a look at them in the Store will give a better sense of what they're all about...

Checco
10-26-2013, 04:26 PM
Hi guys, here's a review (http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/25/late-2013-retina-macbook-pro-review/). Thoughts?

cwa107
10-26-2013, 10:15 PM
Hi guys, here's a review (http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/25/late-2013-retina-macbook-pro-review/). Thoughts?

I'm more interested in this one:

MacBook Pro 15" Retina Display Late 2013 Teardown - iFixit (http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Retina+Display+Late+2013+Teardown/18696/1)

Which is disappointing to say the least, particularly with the battery. It's now clear that this wasn't just a mistake in design, but a very deliberate move to keep users from even replacing the wear components.

pigoo3
10-26-2013, 10:37 PM
Hi guys, here's a review. Thoughts?

One thing that's missing (maybe because of availability)...is how well the Iris Pro integrated graphics performs vs. the new top end 15" rMBP with the discrete graphics (Nvidia’s GeForce GT 750m with 2GB of dedicated video memory).

Otherwise...very informative.:)

- Nick

pigoo3
10-26-2013, 10:45 PM
Which is disappointing to say the least, particularly with the battery. It's now clear that this wasn't just a mistake in design, but a very deliberate move to keep users from even replacing the wear components.

I'm with you 100% Chris. If a person keeps a laptop computer long enough...a new battery eventually will be needed.

I'm assuming the battery in the newest rMBP is still a 1000 cycle battery...which is still a lot of cycles...and should take a while to accumulate under average usage patterns.

But even if the original owner doesn't need to replace the battery...what about owner #2, #3, etc. In other words...someone like me who only buys used??;) Someone along the line will eventually need to get a new battery.

Of course if the cost of a replacement battery from a 3rd party supplier...and the cost of a new battery from Apple (installed) is about the same...then that wouldn't be too big of a deal! We shall see.:)

- Nick

p.s. This possibility is sort of the case with Unibody MacBook Pro's. The cost of a battery replacement (installed)...is about the same as what a replacement battery used to cost for older Mac laptops with the user replaceable battery's ($129).

Of course users were/are able to replace the batteries in Unibody MBP's...Apple just wanted us to think we couldn't!;)

dtravis7
10-26-2013, 10:57 PM
CWA, that is exactly what I was thinking was inside. Thanks for that URL. I was going to search but don't have to now. If it keeps on working it's a great machine but battery's no matter what else happens have a limited life.

To Nick, keep an eye pealed for an Anandtech test on the MBP. One will be sure to come and he will go into much detail about that Iris Pro.

pigoo3
10-26-2013, 10:59 PM
To Nick, keep an eye pealed for an Anandtech test on the MBP. One will be sure to come and he will go into much detail about that Iris Pro.

I will. Those guys are always...SUPER technical & detailed!:)

- Nick

chscag
10-26-2013, 11:06 PM
It's not the cost of the battery per se. It's the cost of labor plus the battery that will turn out to be an expensive replacement. Also, did you notice what ifixit said about the headphone jack: "Break it and you're looking at a $1000 repair". And the display - no protective glass.

No thanks. $2600 ? :Angry-Tongue:

dtravis7
10-27-2013, 12:30 AM
Agree Charlie. they say taking it out will probably break the Trackpad cable leave alone the battery. Very poor design.

RavingMac
10-27-2013, 12:31 AM
I asked Apple typical replacement cost for logic board and battery on the rMBP.

Logic Board is ~$500 for either.

Battery for 13in is about $100
For 15in it's $180

pigoo3
10-27-2013, 01:34 AM
Here's the link for battery replacement cost from Apple. I believe the cost includes the install (labor):

- click on "Battery Replacement" in the upper left of the link
- then expand the "How much does battery replacement cost?" question

Battery replacement cost for 13" or 15" rMBP (in the US) is $199 + tax.

Apple - Support - Service Answer Center (http://support.apple.com/kb/index?page=servicefaq&geo=United_States&product=Macnotebooks)

- Nick

chscag
10-27-2013, 02:39 AM
I asked Apple typical replacement cost for logic board and battery on the rMBP.

Logic Board is ~$500 for either.

Well, that's not what ifixit claims. They're saying if you break the headphone jack you're going to be out $1000 since the entire board will need to be replaced. Maybe they're including the labor and some other parts that go along with a new logic board?

pigoo3
10-27-2013, 02:47 AM
Well, that's not what ifixit claims. They're saying if you break the headphone jack you're going to be out $1000 since the entire board will need to be replaced.

If this is true...I can see all the liquid spill threads coming...with VERY unhappy folks that have to pay $1000 to get their notebook fixed (instead of the previous price of $500) for a replacement logic board on regular MBP's!:o

Or a lot of liquid-damaged rMBP's hitting e-Bay!;)

- Nick

iTz inThezone
10-27-2013, 02:59 AM
Damn, I feel as if I made the best decision possible. In July I picked up the Mid-2012 MBP 2.9GHz i7, 4GB RAM, 256 GB SSD not retina. Put in 16GB of RAM later on. I knew that apple was going to try to phase out this line, just as they did with the standard Macbooks.

I knew that Apple was going to be releasing knew computers this fall, but I couldn't wait, seeing as the semester was about to start, and I needed a machine. I was royally pissed when I saw that the 15" standard MBP had been deleted from the line up. Not that it effects me, but I know people that need that power for not only recreation, but for their jobs.

It really troubles me to see what direction Apple is heading in. The creativity, the innovations, it just isn't there anymore. They have had the same logic for the past few years. "Oh lets make something thinner, better resolution, more battery, more power, more megapixel camera". And they have slowly started to remove the products that made them so popular.

The MBP non retina was still selling even though the retina was out for over a year. Some people need a strong powerful machine, and that just isn't going to be available in a notebook form anymore, at least from Apple.

Overall, I think I made the right decision, and I know this computer is going to last me a good 4-5 years. After that.... well we will see where the popularity of the company is.

As of right now, Apple is essentially a Social Status symbol. People just get the products to show off their wealth. A "$1000 facebook machine" is absolutely correct!!! I got it because I know what is on the inside, and I need the software made by apple (Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro X).

Well thats my rant....

pigoo3
10-27-2013, 03:19 AM
Damn, I feel as if I made the best decision possible. In July I picked up the Mid-2012 MBP 2.9GHz i7, 4GB RAM, 256 GB SSD not retina. Put in 16GB of RAM later on. I knew that apple was going to try to phase out this line, just as they did with the standard Macbooks.

It probably was a good idea to buy when you did if you really wanted a non-retina MacBook Pro that was still upgradeable & had a battery you could replace fairly easily.:) But supplies of these haven't completely dried up yet. Still plenty available via the Apple refurbished store online. But of course eventually this supply will be gone.


As of right now, Apple is essentially a Social Status symbol. People just get the products to show off their wealth.

Like it or not...this has been part of the Apple allure/experience for a very long time (for those folks who pursue this sort of thing). Certainly not something new.

Remember...you own an Apple product (notebook). So when you go to Starbuck's...and whip your MacBook Pro out of your backpack (or "Man-Purse");)...just think what all those other folks at Starbuck's are thinking about YOU (whether it's true or not)!;)lol

- Nick

iTz inThezone
10-27-2013, 03:31 AM
Remember...you own an Apple product (notebook). So when you go to Starbuck's...and whip your MacBook Pro out of your backpack (or "Man-Purse");)...just think what all those other folks at Starbuck's are thinking about YOU (whether it's true or not)!;)lol

- Nick

-No thanks, I will make sure to take my super-duper loud Sony Vaio EA from 2011. If I was to go to Starbucks with that thing, I would get the cops called on me for a noise complaint, the fan is that uncontrollably loud. I would do it just to **** people off, for it not being an apple product. I would add this though....

‘Apple Macbook’ | I New Idea Homepage (http://www.inewidea.com/2012/10/16/51130.html)


Taking my beast of a computer to a Starbucks would totally dishonor all the hard hours I worked to be able to buy it. Plus having it near people, drinking hot/cold BEVERAGES! Electronics and liquid do not mix.

Checco
10-27-2013, 03:31 AM
but I know people that need that power for not only recreation, but for their jobs.


Sorry, the rMBP is any less powerful than the MBP?



The creativity, the innovations, it just isn't there anymore.


No? How many steps forward have they taken in the latest series of products, both hardware and software? Latest processors, graphics, efficiency, SSD performance and yes, resolution.



Some people need a strong powerful machine, and that just isn't going to be available in a notebook form anymore


Please read the review (http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/25/late-2013-retina-macbook-pro-review/) I quoted above.



As of right now, Apple is essentially a Social Status symbol. People just get the products to show off their wealth. A "$1000 facebook machine" is absolutely correct!!!


Well it is a symbol in a sense. It says that I've got taste, I enjoy an excellent product and that I'm prepared to pay for it - and I am. A $1000 Facebook machine? Um, no.

pigoo3
10-27-2013, 03:42 AM
Electronics and liquid do not mix.

You don't need to tell me this.;) I've probably responded to hundreds of folks that have spilled liquids of all sorts onto their Apple laptops (hoping for a miracle). And in many of those responses I've unfortunately had to say:

Liquid + Laptop = Dead Laptop:(

- Nick

iTz inThezone
10-27-2013, 03:55 AM
Sorry, the rMBP is any less powerful than the MBP?



No? How many steps forward have they taken in the latest series of products, both hardware and software? Latest processors, graphics, efficiency, SSD performance and yes, resolution.



Please read the review (http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/25/late-2013-retina-macbook-pro-review/) I quoted above.



Well it is a symbol in a sense. It says that I've got taste, I enjoy an excellent product and that I'm prepared to pay for it - and I am. A $1000 Facebook machine? Um, no.




I am talking about things that most people don't take into consideration. I might have worded it a little wrong, and for that I apologize. What I meant to say was this. Let me give you a brief background.

Back in the day, my cousin, who is a music producer, used exclusively Logic Pro. He had the 17" MacBook Pro, because of the screen real estate. He was able to have many things open in Logic because of the size of the screen, making it easier for him to produce. Right about the time when he was about to upgrade to a newer 17", it was discontinued. Many, and I mean MANY, people where ticked off when this model was discontinued. People needed the screen size. They needed to run multiple things at once on one screen. People don't always have the luxury of hooking up their computer to an external monitor.

In addition, how are you going to burn CD's efficiently? The retina does not have a built in drive, and having an external drive is a hassle for many.

People just don't classify these new computers as Pro anymore.

The older MBPs where basically a portable version of the Mac Pro tower. The reason people on here love them so much is that the RAM is upgradable, as well as the CD drive can be taken out for more HD space.

With the retina, that luxury is not there. It still is powerful, but wonderfully useless. Why do you need that high of a resolution? Unless you are editing 2.7k Cinema video, or are a professional photographer, that screen is useless. It does nothing but strain your eyes quicker. THAT is a FACT! Also, without a dedicated graphics card, like the 650M in the now extinct 15" MBP, how are programs going to run? A little choppy? The Iris is nothing but a glorified Intel graphics 4000 card. Look at he benchmarks.

Even if you are a photo/video guru, the retina is still useless. Spending that much money on a notebook, should be going towards the MacPro itself.

What are you going to to with a $1200+ rMBP when the battery is no longer able to be charged? What are you going to do with a $1200 rMBP when the RAM is fried? What about the CPU? GPU? Things don't last mate, they simply do not. I would much rather have the opportunity to have a solid machine, that after 2-3 years I can replace the battery for an affordable price.

What are you going to do when the retina has some problems? What are the tons of people with retinas going to do when they encounter a minor problem? If the audio jack is messed up you have to pay a Boatoad of money just to get that fixed. On top of that, there is no protective glass for the screen, and it is remarkably thin, which after some time, something will happen to it. Somebody might hit your bag at Starbucks at an awkward angle, you never now.

All I am trying to say is that the non retina MBP was a very very functional computer for many, and many are now having to switch to other platforms, because they need to. They cant afford to pay a third of the retail price, just to fix a minor problem. With a standard MBP it could be fixed at a lower cost.

My cousin had to switch to PC, to use FL Studio 10 at the time. He had to learn a whole new software, just so he could start making money again.

It's not just specs that make a computer what it is mate, it is what you use that computer for, that make it valuable.

R.I.P. MBP

Do you understand?

dtravis7
10-27-2013, 04:16 AM
I Agree with you iTz inThezone. Although the new rMBP is a fine computer in most ways, will it be in 2 years? Can the average person afford a new computer in 2 years?

To the other posters, do you feel iFixit is lying? Exaggerating? They are not. They are calling the shots as they see them and are pros at their job.

iTz inThezone
10-27-2013, 04:18 AM
I Agree with you iTz inThezone. Although the new rMBP is a fine computer in most ways, will it be in 2 years? Can the average person afford a new computer in 2 years?

To the other posters, do you feel iFixit is lying? Exaggerating? They are not. They are calling the shots as they see them and are pros at their job.

Somebody who understands!!! The average person, can't keep up with Apple pumping out products like this.

Thank you for understanding!

-iTz

dtravis7
10-27-2013, 04:19 AM
My main issue is I love OSX so much. Makes it hard! :D

Checco
10-27-2013, 04:30 AM
iTz, I get the sense of what you're saying.

I think the hard reality here is that what used to be the traditional Pro user was just too small a portion of the market. That's the trouble when products become more mainstream - the original niche becomes a small portion of the total client base.

It's clear (from user's comments) that creative Pros have felt neglected for many years, but at least in the new Pro, Apple has addressed this issue. I'm guessing now, but maybe the logic for the screen real-estate and general creative requirements, the thinking is: either a rMBP with TB display OR a Mac Pro + TB Display + rMBP for the cases when on the move. But that's purely speculation.

Something that has been on my mind is the following and I think it goes to the real meat of the matter. I have a 2011 21.5" iMac and a 2012 15" MBP with hi-res option. While the MBP absolutely whips the iMac in performance, I far prefer working on the iMac. So the question on my mind is always: why do I need such a powerful mobile machine? Is possibly two iMacs + 13" MBA not a better option? So possibly the market for a true mobile desktop is getting smaller. I'd guess that in most cases, the bulk 'crunching' can be done in the office, with some refinement done on the move.

So is it not possible that the entire face of computing is changing? We work in different ways today with telecommuting, bring your own device, etc, so possibly the entire approach to productivity needs a re-think. From a PC perspective, we still live in a predominantly MS world where MS would have you work on a (terrible) desktop and worse notebook. If there is a company I would trust with reading the trends and what will work, it's Apple. Now before you guys climb into me: I know change isn't an easy thing and not nice to have it rammed down your throat, but it's coming through gradually, giving us time to think, evaluate and adapt both ourselves and our approach to work.

RavingMac
10-27-2013, 10:00 AM
Here's the link for battery replacement cost from Apple. I believe the cost includes the install (labor):

- click on "Battery Replacement" in the upper left of the link
- then expand the "How much does battery replacement cost?" question

Battery replacement cost for 13" or 15" rMBP (in the US) is $199 + tax.

Apple - Support - Service Answer Center (http://support.apple.com/kb/index?page=servicefaq&geo=United_States&product=Macnotebooks)

- Nick

Well, that I find annoying. They specifically told me at the Apple Store the 13in rMBP replacement was cheaper as the 15in required replacing additional parts.


Well, that's not what ifixit claims. They're saying if you break the headphone jack you're going to be out $1000 since the entire board will need to be replaced. Maybe they're including the labor and some other parts that go along with a new logic board?
I asked for a total cost, but they may have only given me the part cost. If ifixit is correct (and I have no reason to doubt them) that changes the equation considerably.

In particular it makes 13in rMBPs throwaway rather than repair items.

RavingMac
10-27-2013, 12:11 PM
Based on all the back and forth here, and the corrected repair costs (higher than the Apple Store told me) I have ordered a 2012 model standard MBP.

cwa107
10-27-2013, 12:14 PM
In particular it makes 13in rMBPs throwaway rather than repair items.

Yep, that's been my gripe with all recent Apple machines, including the iMac. Not very green now, is it?

I'm sorry, on this point, I'm not going to be an Apple apologist. I truly believe that if Apple wanted to, they could build the same machines with a degree of repairability - but they don't want to - and it's not just laziness, but a deliberate and calculated move to keep the faithful coming back as often as possible for their expensive machines.

pigoo3
10-27-2013, 12:37 PM
I have a feeling that in the future (when these non-upgradeable 2012-2013+ rMBP's are 3-5 years old and older)...that the rMBP's that were configured with minimal ram & storage will be worth very little. And rMBP's that were pre-configured with higher amounts of ram & storage will be in much higher demand & have a much higher resale value.

As a perfect example. I wouldn't touch a used MacBook Air from around 2008/2009. Not because:

- the cpu or gpu is not fast enough
- the storage space is small
- it can't run the latest OS (it can)

It's because they have a max ram of only 2gig. 2gig is really not enough.

Even 2010 MacBook Air's came with 2gig of ram standard (but they could have been pre-configured with 4gig of ram...which is max. ram). So I would stay away from 2010 MBA's with only 2gig of ram as well.

Not until 2011 is 4gig of ram standard on a 13" MacBook Air. And 4gig is what I would consider a minimum to get by with in 2013.

- Nick

RavingMac
10-27-2013, 12:41 PM
I have a feeling that in the future (when these non-upgradeable 2012-2013+ rMBP's are 3-5 years old and older)...that the rMBP's that were configured with minimal ram & storage will be worth very little. And rMBP's that were pre-configured with higher amounts of ram & storage will be in much higher demand & have a much higher resale value.

As a perfect example. I wouldn't touch a used MacBook Air from around 2008/2009. Not because:

- the cpu or gpu is not fast enough
- the storage space is small
- it can't run the latest OS (it can)

It's because they have a max ram of only 2gig. 2gig is really not enough.

Even 2010 MacBook Air's came with 2gig of ram standard (but they could have been pre-configured with 4gig of ram...which is max. ram). So I would stay away from 2010 MBA's with only 2gig of ram as well.

Not until 2011 is 4gig of ram standard on a 13" MacBook Air. And 4gig is what I would consider a minimum to get by with in 2013.

- Nick
Excellent points that I hadn't considered.

pigoo3
10-27-2013, 12:54 PM
Excellent points that I hadn't considered.

Actually (to be 100% fair to rMBP's). I just double checked the min. ram specs for the 2012/2013 rMBP's...and min ram is 8gig. This is probably a pretty good amount for the foreseeable future. But eventually...even 8gig will not be enough (for the rMBP's pre-configured with 8gig of ram)...and may be less desirable in the used computer market of the future.

Since that 2012 "regular" 15" MacBook Pro you ordered has a max. ram of 16gig (that is user upgradeable)...and has upgradeable storage AND a user replaceable battery. I think that it will retain value & usefulness very well.:)

What I'm mainly trying to say is. In the future with these non-upgradeable rMBP's...a slower cpu & gpu (in an older rMBP) may be less of an issue than not enough ram (ram not upgradeable).

- Nick

chscag
10-27-2013, 12:55 PM
And 4gig is what I would consider a minimum to get by with in 2013.

Yeah, I agree Nick. I made a personal observation statement several days ago that the last version of OS X that ran well with 4 GB of memory was Snow Leopard. I still stick to that based on my own usage and experience. With today's machines and puffed up applications, I would not run Mountain Lion or Mavericks with anything less than 8 GB. Again my own opinion! (Before I get hate mail... ;P)

pigoo3
10-27-2013, 01:17 PM
I think that it depends a lot on what folks are doing...and I think that it depends on what computer model folks are running 4 gigs of ram on.

If folks are running:

- more demanding applications
- running multiple applications
- running multiple demanding applications on older hardware
- newer OS versions (10.8, 10.9)

I can see 4gig of ram not being enough.

In my case I have three laptops that I use frequently. Two of them have 4gig's of ram...and both are running 10.7. One of them is a 2008 MacBook (core 2 duo), the other is a 2011 13" MacBook Pro (dual core i5).

I pretty much just run e-mail & Safari on each...and sometimes some online gaming. I really think both are doing fine with 4gig of ram (for what I'm doing)...but I bet that if I ran more demanding apps, multiple demanding apps, and/or newer OS versions...I can see 4gig of ram being more of an issue. And with the 2008 MacBook (which is maxed out with OS 10.7)...the slower hardware would become more of a bottleneck.

So with 4gig of ram...it's definitely a combination of:

- app complexity
- # of apps running
- age of the hardware
- OS version running

...that will or will not make 4gig of ram a useable amount on a computer in 2013.:)

- Nick

p.s. Of course 8gig of ram is much better. Especially since when it comes to slowdowns & "beachballs"...which with only 4gig of ram...page-outs & swap file size grow faster...causing more slowdowns more frequently. Which of course can be solved by simply rebooting the computer. But many users don't know...or think of this.;)

skallal
10-27-2013, 01:25 PM
I just picked up a 15" MBP mid 2012 inspired mostly by this thread. I was leaning toward that model for a few months now. But this thread made my decision more urgent.

Mine is the Hi-Res 1680x1050 version, the highest resolution wo /retina. I've been leaning toward this resolution. I also wanted USB 3, which meant 2012 or later. So I found a very mint one on Craig's List with a few months of Apple Care left.

Here is the the specific model: MacBook Pro "Core i7" 2.6 15" Mid-2012 Specs (Mid-2012 15", MD104LL/A, MacBookPro9,1, A1286, 2556*) @ EveryMac.com (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook_pro/specs/macbook-pro-core-i7-2.6-15-mid-2012-unibody-usb3-specs.html)

Also important to me is virtualization. My Windows 8.1 Pro VM definitely runs much faster under Parallels, compared to my 13" MBP also with an i7. Quad core makes a real difference with VMs.

This will be my Mac for the foreseeable future. I too latent the demise of the upgradeable MacBook, though a relative newcomer to the Mac. I upgraded it immediately to 16 GB at a local shop recommended by an Apple Store genius. I now wonder about the long term future of that shop, which is totally dedicated to Mac upgrades.

So in another 2 or 3 years, what sort of Mac will I get? Will they be all closed hardware?

chscag
10-27-2013, 01:37 PM
So in another 2 or 3 years, what sort of Mac will I get? Will they be all closed hardware?

I hate to say yes to the above, but I'm afraid that will be the case. I don't see Apple changing course on this.

pigoo3
10-27-2013, 01:43 PM
Mine is the Hi-Res 1689x1050 version, the highest resolution wo /retina.

Good purchase choice overall. But I hope you have VERY good eyes. That display resolution on a 15" display will have pretty small text!;)


So in another 2 or 3 years, what sort of Mac will I get? Will they be all closed hardware?

It does seem the direction that Apple is going. But it would also seem that pre-configuring a computer of this sort (closed hardware) with more ram & storage than would seem to be needed at the time of purchase...would be the smart thing to do.:)

This would seem to be an reinforcement of the old rule of..."Buy as much computer as you can afford.":)

Also (due to the closed hardware & difficult/impossible repairability by an end-user)...it would seem that getting extended Applecare would also be a smart choice (even smarter than it would have been previously)!;)

- Nick

Checco
10-27-2013, 02:05 PM
That display resolution on a 15" display will have pretty small text!;)


I have to agree - most likely why I find working on my 21.5" iMac far better than on the MBP (and I'm only 38, eyes aren't that bad yet!). I ordered mine direct from the US without seeing it beforehand, which was a bit silly. Unfortunately only the standard models are available here and at quite a premium.

About the old argument, it's becoming clearer how different people will suffer as a result of the changes. Let yourselves be heard: moan at Apple Stores, send mail to Apple and get your friends to do the same. If they hear that there's a decent proportion of people unhappy about the change, they will address it in one way or another.

Just a question I have for you Pros out there: how long does a machine typically last you, realistically, before the performance sacrifice is just too much and you need to upgrade?

pigoo3
10-27-2013, 02:18 PM
I have to agree - most likely why I find working on my 21.5" iMac far better than on the MBP (and I'm only 38, eyes aren't that bad yet!).

I have one of the last 17" MacBook Pro's...display resolution is 1920 x 1200. I'm sometimes "borderline" disappointed with it...since my eyes are not as good as they used to be (just the way it goes)...and thus the text sometimes is a bit small. But on the positive side...90% of the time I use it on a desktop with an external 30" monitor attached to it.:)


Just a question I have for you Pros out there: how long does a machine typically last you, realistically, before the performance sacrifice is just too much and you need to upgrade?

The unfortunate answer is it really depends. A "Power-User" who always needs the cutting edge of performance may need a new computer annually.

For me (much less demanding)...I still have a 2008 white MacBook that really can do everything I need it to do...even though I do have newer computers that I can use as well.:)

I think that many folks agree on around 3 years being a good number. But I think 3-5 years probably encompasses a large majority of users.

- Nick

cwa107
10-27-2013, 07:32 PM
I think that many folks agree on around 3 years being a good number. But I think 3-5 years probably encompasses a large majority of users.

- Nick

I'm typically on a 3 year replacement cycle for laptops - that is until I bought my current 2011 MBP. I have a feeling this one will have legs for another 2-3 years. In the next year, I will probably go with a 480GB SSD and maybe replace the battery and go to 16GB, but for now, it has plenty of horsepower for my needs.

Chris H.
10-27-2013, 07:52 PM
I was looking into getting a more powerful MacBook (a la MBP) with a disc drive last year...unfortunately the funds weren't enough.

Now I'm kicking myself...I guess a USB disc drive (do they even make Thunderbolt drives?) will do if I decide on a future MacBook.

I've had this white unibody MB since spring of 2010, so it's not exactly time to replace it.

S.SubZero
10-27-2013, 08:04 PM
While they will need to pry my 17" MBP 2011 from my cold, dead hands, my work recently gave me a Retina 15" and it does pretty much wreck this thing in every regard other than sheer size.

pepsican
10-27-2013, 08:54 PM
I'm going to upgrade to the rMBP, possibly on next refresh. Almost pulled the trigger this time around, but upgraded my hard drive to SSD and am just fine after that speed boost. I still don't see the purpose of a disc drive in these things, I haven't used mine since I bought it in 2011. I don't think I used mine other than to upgrade to Snow Leopard. All needs covered on that end with USB drives. Really happy to see those go away.

McYukon
10-27-2013, 11:23 PM
Just ordered a Refurbished 2012 15.4-inch MacBook Pro i7 sad to say that it will probably will be my last Apple Laptop. Should last me another 5+ years.
Going to trick it out with 16 GB RAM and a 120 GB SSD + 500 GB Data Doubler, and pass my current one down to a sibling :)

I've replaced fans, redone poorly done thermal paste, replaced a entire logic board on a brothers 2007 MBP, soldered out popped capacitors on a 2004 iMac and installed new ones and it really ticks me off the direction Apple is taking with their new products. I basically live in the middle of nowhere, and it would take weeks to get anything even looked at by Apple Techs

osxx
10-28-2013, 12:58 AM
I'm going to upgrade to the rMBP, possibly on next refresh. Almost pulled the trigger this time around, but upgraded my hard drive to SSD and am just fine after that speed boost. I still don't see the purpose of a disc drive in these things, I haven't used mine since I bought it in 2011. I don't think I used mine other than to upgrade to Snow Leopard. All needs covered on that end with USB drives. Really happy to see those go away.

While thats fine for people that have no need for them but I rip my CD's to lossless and having to buy a USB optical drive is just more things to clutter the desk and IMO they retired it to early and some would have wanted a BD drive but that will never happen.
Now if they offered lossless selections in iTunes I might never miss my optical drive.

ScaryFatKidGT
10-28-2013, 03:04 AM
I was looking into getting a more powerful MacBook (a la MBP) with a disc drive last year...unfortunately the funds weren't enough.

Now I'm kicking myself...I guess a USB disc drive (do they even make Thunderbolt drives?) will do if I decide on a future MacBook.

I've had this white unibody MB since spring of 2010, so it's not exactly time to replace it.Apple refurb store, or bestbuys still have the base 2012 15"


While thats fine for people that have no need for them but I rip my CD's to lossless and having to buy a USB optical drive is just more things to clutter the desk and IMO they retired it to early and some would have wanted a BD drive but that will never happen.
Now if they offered lossless selections in iTunes I might never miss my optical drive.Yeah, for a desk top I can see, but halling around a usb drive for laptops is a pain

pepsican
10-28-2013, 09:17 PM
While thats fine for people that have no need for them but I rip my CD's to lossless and having to buy a USB optical drive is just more things to clutter the desk and IMO they retired it to early and some would have wanted a BD drive but that will never happen.
Now if they offered lossless selections in iTunes I might never miss my optical drive.

Whoops, I meant a USB thumb drive. 64GB can be had for $25-30. I can plug that into my car/home stereo/TV/other computers/etc. Same goes for movie rips. Easily downloaded, transferred to thumb drive, then plugged into the TV.

Checco
10-29-2013, 02:56 AM
I think that many folks agree on around 3 years being a good number. But I think 3-5 years probably encompasses a large majority of users.


I'm typically on a 3 year replacement cycle for laptops - that is until I bought my current 2011 MBP. I have a feeling this one will have legs for another 2-3 years. In the next year, I will probably go with a 480GB SSD and maybe replace the battery and go to 16GB, but for now, it has plenty of horsepower for my needs.

Thanks guys. About 3 is what I'm on as well, but with these interesting new OS developments it's going to be interesting to see if the cycle can be lengthened.

Derek McNelly
11-08-2013, 04:40 PM
What's getting me about the rMBP is the lack of/price of storage space.

RAM? Two hundred extra bucks up front, okay. That's reasonably priced compared to the market for upgradable RAM on Newegg.

DVD drive? I'll miss it, but I'll find a way.

Display? It's nice. I like it quite a bit.

Storage? EIGHT HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR ONE TERABYTE OF STORAGE. EIGHT. HUNDRED. That's obnoxious. I'm not lugging around a portable hard drive just to carry the things I need. You hamper the portability of the machine, and might as well get an iMac at that point.

So, I bought a Mid-2012 MBP before the announcement, knowing it was probably gonna disappear after that. Put a big ol' hybrid hard drive in it. Upped the RAM to 8GB. It's great. The best machine I've owned.

I got almost 7 years out of my old MacBook, I'll hopefully get at least five out of this new MacBook Pro. At that point, maybe SSD storage costs will come down and I'll be able to get 2TB in there for a reasonable price. Until then, I'm just not interested in the rMBP. It's not prime time for SSDs. Not quite yet.

cwa107
11-08-2013, 06:59 PM
It's not prime time for SSDs. Not quite yet.

How do you figure? I would have agreed with you 2 years ago, but modern SSDs are reliable, the pricing is really starting to come down (under $1/gigabyte) and drives from mainstream vendors are pretty solid from a reliability standpoint.

$800 for 1TB from Apple is ridiculous, but then, they've never priced storage reasonably. I still find it laughable that a 32GB iPad is a $100 premium over 16GB. When a 32GB flash drive is $20, that's just ridiculous.

Derek McNelly
11-08-2013, 10:10 PM
How do you figure? I would have agreed with you 2 years ago, but modern SSDs are reliable, the pricing is really starting to come down (under $1/gigabyte) and drives from mainstream vendors are pretty solid from a reliability standpoint.

$800 for 1TB from Apple is ridiculous, but then, they've never priced storage reasonably. I still find it laughable that a 32GB iPad is a $100 premium over 16GB. When a 32GB flash drive is $20, that's just ridiculous.

Oh, I meant specifically for Apple's pricing, since they're a "non-user serviceable part".

On the whole they're getting cheaper, I still think they're overpriced to all heck, but definitely not like they were a few years back.

dtravis7
11-08-2013, 11:11 PM
Oh, I meant specifically for Apple's pricing, since they're a "non-user serviceable part".

On the whole they're getting cheaper, I still think they're overpriced to all heck, but definitely not like they were a few years back.

See that is the issue with the new MBP and Air and even Mac Pro.. You are stuck with some proprietary drive that you at least for now have no way around the high price.

You were very smart Derek getting that last model Normal MBP when you did. It should last you a long time to come.

Derek McNelly
11-09-2013, 12:01 AM
See that is the issue with the new MBP and Air and even Mac Pro.. You are stuck with some proprietary drive that you at least for now have no way around the high price.

You were very smart Derek getting that last model Normal MBP when you did. It should last you a long time to come.

Thank you! The fact that I just now started to feel the pinch on a base-model C2D MacBook from 2007 says that this machine probably won't feel cramped for quite some time. Definitely glad I upgraded when I did. Finally got the machine I wanted in the first place, haha.

dtravis7
11-09-2013, 12:09 AM
That is cool. I am still using my C2D 2007 Santa Rosa Macbook like yours. Still works great, just the typical cracks around the trackpad area.

Exodist
11-09-2013, 06:04 AM
See a lot of post about users not liking the Retina MBP? I thought this would be a sought out upgrade. While I would like the 17" model, the 15" retina offers more screen real-estate. As a amateur photographer. The retina displays are just amazing and something I would want if getting a MBP. Though I suspect pricing is the reason they dropped the 17" models in favor of 15". Perhaps when manufacturing cost on the displays drop they will re introduce a 17" model with retina display.

EDIT:
Noticed the issue is more with the storage.. Yea.. Not supper thrilled about that either.. Much rather had a 1TB Samsung Revo in it and saved a ton of cash.

Derek McNelly
11-09-2013, 08:27 AM
See a lot of post about users not liking the Retina MBP? I thought this would be a sought out upgrade. While I would like the 17" model, the 15" retina offers more screen real-estate. As a amateur photographer. The retina displays are just amazing and something I would want if getting a MBP. Though I suspect pricing is the reason they dropped the 17" models in favor of 15". Perhaps when manufacturing cost on the displays drop they will re introduce a 17" model with retina display.

EDIT:
Noticed the issue is more with the storage.. Yea.. Not supper thrilled about that either.. Much rather had a 1TB Samsung Revo in it and saved a ton of cash.

Yep. For most of us it's entirely about having soldered in RAM and a non-standard SSD. If it had upgradable RAM and a standard, readily available from third parties SSD, we'd be all over it. It's a gorgeous machine, just, those two things are important to power users, and we're all feeling kind of ignored because of it.

RavingMac
11-09-2013, 10:15 AM
See a lot of post about users not liking the Retina MBP? I thought this would be a sought out upgrade. While I would like the 17" model, the 15" retina offers more screen real-estate. As a amateur photographer. The retina displays are just amazing and something I would want if getting a MBP. Though I suspect pricing is the reason they dropped the 17" models in favor of 15". Perhaps when manufacturing cost on the displays drop they will re introduce a 17" model with retina display.

EDIT:
Noticed the issue is more with the storage.. Yea.. Not supper thrilled about that either.. Much rather had a 1TB Samsung Revo in it and saved a ton of cash.

In the stores, with side-by-side comparison, the Retina screen was better. But I really don't notice the loss at home, and I still have a 27in monitor when I want screen real estate.

Exodist
11-10-2013, 06:15 AM
Yep. For most of us it's entirely about having soldered in RAM and a non-standard SSD. If it had upgradable RAM and a standard, readily available from third parties SSD, we'd be all over it. It's a gorgeous machine, just, those two things are important to power users, and we're all feeling kind of ignored because of it.

Yea. that would make someone not want it. Upgradability is a big thing.

I dont understand why Apple wants to make their own SSD anyway. Samsung and Intel both make very reliable SSDs. At this point in time, any drive that can hit 500MB/s transfer rates is fast enough that the only thing that would notice it being faster is a benchmark tool.

I understand this reason to do this on the MBA series (ultra thin), they are affordable enough that one can live with say 4GB DRAM and say a 128GB SSD for the life of the computer. But MBP series is much more costly and users need to be able to keep those investments going until they have paid for themselves. This can mean the user will need some level of upgradability. Toting a external HDD around the size of the brick to store your files is not "upgradability" IMHO.

I understand CPU being fixed or soldered into the system board. But users always want to upgrade RAM and drive space at a later date. Just when MS was making users turn away from PCs with Win8. Apple does something like this to force them to go back to that mess..

Despite what Apple thinks the reason their computer market share has grown, its not what Apple has done, its what MS did wrong..

IMHO,
Joe

Derek McNelly
11-10-2013, 07:42 PM
Yea. that would make someone not want it. Upgradability is a big thing.

I dont understand why Apple wants to make their own SSD anyway. Samsung and Intel both make very reliable SSDs. At this point in time, any drive that can hit 500MB/s transfer rates is fast enough that the only thing that would notice it being faster is a benchmark tool.

I understand this reason to do this on the MBA series (ultra thin), they are affordable enough that one can live with say 4GB DRAM and say a 128GB SSD for the life of the computer. But MBP series is much more costly and users need to be able to keep those investments going until they have paid for themselves. This can mean the user will need some level of upgradability. Toting a external HDD around the size of the brick to store your files is not "upgradability" IMHO.

I understand CPU being fixed or soldered into the system board. But users always want to upgrade RAM and drive space at a later date. Just when MS was making users turn away from PCs with Win8. Apple does something like this to force them to go back to that mess..

Despite what Apple thinks the reason their computer market share has grown, its not what Apple has done, its what MS did wrong..

IMHO,
Joe

Yeah, I doubt I would go back to Windows. It's been quite some time since I've had to use a Windows PC for more than a few minutes at a time (Probably close to 7 years now. I haven't had a Windows machine for personal use since 2006, and even then only to play CounterStrike.) I've tried every iteration since XP, and they've all left me feeling cold. I know my next computer will be a Mac, I'll just have to spend more up front on it.

ScaryFatKidGT
11-11-2013, 04:15 AM
Yep. For most of us it's entirely about having soldered in RAM and a non-standard SSD. If it had upgradable RAM and a standard, readily available from third parties SSD, we'd be all over it. It's a gorgeous machine, just, those two things are important to power users, and we're all feeling kind of ignored because of it.And no disk drive, and one switching aux in/out, and not having a graphics card standard now.... and the resolution being confusing, I mean its great for photography and supported apple aps but what else?

Blazbo
11-23-2013, 03:42 AM
Apple seem to be taking away CHOICE…..
Why would they do that? The beauty of using a machine/device is its flexibility - a MBP user myself.
So we now have non standard drives and and hard memory as well as no local syncing - only via iCloud.
They are beginning to paint themselves into a corner and divest themselves from a market that wants diversity in a device.
For the conspiracy theorists - perhaps the manufacturers have got together and now only provide what they want, not what the market wants, that's why people make and look for jailbreaks.
Bring on the jail-breakers!

brentagade
11-23-2013, 06:11 PM
I've been putting off buying one for quite awhile. I came across a 15" non ret at our Base Exchange (store on an Air Force base). It was a display model and the only one they had. I wasn't sure if I wanted a display model. That same day I found out that the non-retinas were discontinued. The next morning I went and purchased the display model and they knocked off 10%. I was a bit irritated that if I wanted 15" I would be forced to pay over $2000 and not be able to upgrade later if I choose. I'm not sold on the "everything soldered" idea yet, nor I'm I ready to move to a smaller size SSD for more money.

Checco
11-24-2013, 02:47 AM
I've been putting off buying one for quite awhile. I came across a 15" non ret at our Base Exchange (store on an Air Force base). It was a display model and the only one they had. I wasn't sure if I wanted a display model. That same day I found out that the non-retinas were discontinued. The next morning I went and purchased the display model and they knocked off 10%. I was a bit irritated that if I wanted 15" I would be forced to pay over $2000 and not be able to upgrade later if I choose. I'm not sold on the "everything soldered" idea yet, nor I'm I ready to move to a smaller size SSD for more money.

Your 15" will last you a nice long time and the dust will have settled on this new soldered/SSD/Retina thing by then. I love my 2012 15" MBP, very fast and a pleasure to work on - I'm sure you'll experience the same. On a side note, since it's a display model, why not take some edge off by getting AppleCare?

brentagade
11-24-2013, 02:56 AM
Thanks. I'm looking forward to it, and yes I'll be picking up the Apple Care plan too.

ayeng98
12-08-2013, 09:30 AM
I feel very sad about this development, i upgrade my 2009 13' macbook pro to mac15' non retina last august and its 5 months old honestly i dont like the mbp15' retina, i am a music person i have a library of CD ones in a while ripped those that i often played and and then delete to ease the memory HD but with mbp retina i can no longer do it...

cwa107
12-08-2013, 10:45 AM
I feel very sad about this development, i upgrade my 2009 13' macbook pro to mac15' non retina last august and its 5 months old honestly i dont like the mbp15' retina, i am a music person i have a library of CD ones in a while ripped those that i often played and and then delete to ease the memory HD but with mbp retina i can no longer do it...

Why not? All you need is a USB external CD/DVD drive, which can be had for as little as $30.

osxx
12-08-2013, 02:01 PM
Why not? All you need is a USB external CD/DVD drive, which can be had for as little as $30.

I agree and when it goes bad a heck of a lot cheaper than having the internal replaced.

Quietone
12-27-2013, 12:58 PM
Well we know how it is, "buyer beware." :(

RavingMac
01-19-2014, 11:54 PM
Update:

I'm really glad I went with the 15in 2012 MBP. Just installed a Crucial M500, 480GB SSD plus 16GB RAM.
I also picked up Caldigit's Thunderbolt Dock, so now one cable connection lets me use my MBP as a desktop computer. My 27in monitor and a 1TB external HD are permanently plugged into the Caldigit box.

pigoo3
01-20-2014, 01:36 AM
I also picked up Caldigit's Thunderbolt Dock, so now one cable connection lets me use my MBP as a desktop computer. My 27in monitor and a 1TB external HD are permanently plugged into the Caldigit box.

Pretty cool looking little box. A bit more expensive than I would like ($199)...but from what I'm reading..$100 less than a similar Belkin unit.

- Nick

RavingMac
01-20-2014, 11:51 AM
Pretty cool looking little box. A bit more expensive than I would like ($199)...but from what I'm reading..$100 less than a similar Belkin unit.

- Nick

The $100 differential is nice, but what sold me on the Caldigit was the absence of negative reviews. I looked seriously at the competitors when they came out but saw far too many complaints for me to drop $300 on a docking station.

RavingMac
01-20-2014, 01:54 PM
I just ran the numbers, and with my upgrades, I ended up saving almost $600 for my (now) 2012 2.3GHz 15in MBP with 16GB RAM and 480GB SSD.

2013 rMBP with 16GB and 512 GB SSD - $2600 (Apple before taxes)

2012 MBP with 4GB and 512 GB HD - $1600 (Amazon)
Crucial M500 480 GB SSD - $289 (Amazon)
Crucial 16GB RAM Kit - $139 (Amazon)

Total $2028

Savings $572
plus I have the old 512 GB HD for backups

chscag
01-20-2014, 02:11 PM
Savings $572
plus I have the old 512 GB HD for backups

Nice one Mike. Wish I were as diligent when making purchases. Used car salesman lick their chops when they see me coming.... :$

cwa107
01-21-2014, 11:48 AM
I just ran the numbers, and with my upgrades, I ended up saving almost $600 for my (now) 2012 2.3GHz 15in MBP with 16GB RAM and 480GB SSD.

2013 rMBP with 16GB and 512 GB SSD - $2600 (Apple before taxes)

2012 MBP with 4GB and 512 GB HD - $1600 (Amazon)
Crucial M500 480 GB SSD - $289 (Amazon)
Crucial 16GB RAM Kit - $139 (Amazon)

Total $2028

Savings $572
plus I have the old 512 GB HD for backups

A smart move all the way around - that system should be well-equipped to handle just about anything you can throw at it for at least 3 years, probably more like 5-7.

BTW, I have been looking at that same dock, trying to justify its cost in my mind (I would really like USB 3 ports) - but I'm not quite there yet. Perhaps when I get around to turning my formal living room into an office.

Exodist
01-21-2014, 01:10 PM
Yea 2012 to 2013 MBP isn't a real upgrade. People tend to forget about Intels Tick Tock releases. Sandy was a Tock introducing smaller die size, while Haswell is a Tick into improving the the technology. A true CPU upgrade will not be around Mid 2015.

Even myself with my Mac Mini, I will not be upgrading to new model until the model after next. However this summer I will be purchasing 16GB of Crucial RAM and 2x 3TB WD USB3 External drives.

Blazbo
06-26-2014, 09:19 AM
I figured this day was coming. Kind of like when Apple did away with the "matte" display on laptops...and got rid of the 17" MacBook Pro.

- Nick

:\I bought a late 2011 MBP (as you did) and had it amped up - the matte version. So I'm also lucky and will be hanging onto this this one as long as possible.

My main concern is that we seem to be moving away from consumer choice.

Apple seems to want to tell us what we will have and like. Why do we have to jailbreak, why should I only be able to use iTunes etc and why can't I buy a matte version?

MS definitely has the edge when it comes to freedom of choice when using your device. Don't get me wrong I love my Apple stuff, but I'm growing tired of being told what I can add/use with it.

Let's hope Apple opens the doors to other products to provide apps and software to use without going outside, their product(s) policies and protocols. If they keep it up, I may have to buy a Surface and a S/sung mini 4:\

cwa107
06-26-2014, 09:36 AM
:\I bought a late 2011 MBP (as you did) and had it amped up - the matte version. So I'm also lucky and will be hanging onto this this one as long as possible.


Same here, though I kind of wish I would have jumped on one of the Ivy Bridge models that were still available right after they released the Retina 15" model. It would be nice to have native USB3.



My main concern is that we seem to be moving away from consumer choice.


Though Apple has always had more of a limited selection of hardware, they have gotten particularly draconian recently. The matte display doesn't really concern me that much - but not being able to upgrade memory and epoxying batteries into the case are extremely concerning as they severely limit the useful lifetime of a given device.



Apple seems to want to tell us what we will have and like. Why do we have to jailbreak, why should I only be able to use iTunes etc and why can't I buy a matte version?

MS definitely has the edge when it comes to freedom of choice when using your device. Don't get me wrong I love my Apple stuff, but I'm growing tired of being told what I can add/use with it.

Let's hope Apple opens the doors to other products to provide apps and software to use without going outside, their product(s) policies and protocols. If they keep it up, I may have to buy a Surface and a S/sung mini 4:\

You're kind of mixing issues here, but I did want to comment a bit about the jailbreaking and whatnot.

The reason that the iOS platform is mostly malware and trouble free is precisely the reason why you are locked into the App Store in terms of what software you can have on your mobile device. This is a *good* thing, particularly in a day and age where your mobile device has a GPS transponder, microphone, multiple cameras and can pretty much spy on your every move, every hour, of every day.

Additionally, Apple's tight control of form factors and hardware in the mobile realm mean that you don't have the fragmentation issues that make Android such a terrible platform to develop for. Imagine trying to write an application for a platform where the screen size and resolution can be anything from 1080P in a 4" display to VGA in a 10" tablet form-factor. What happens is that you have to develop for the least common denominator, which results in decidedly low quality third party apps. This is why you'll find that the best Android apps are often not as good as the worst iOS apps.

And of course, as you rightly noted, if you REALLY have to have an app that Apple didn't specifically bless, you can do so by jailbreaking. IMO, this is the best of all worlds.

Now, if they would just get a large-screened iPhone out the door, I'd have little to criticize on the mobile front.

RavingMac
06-27-2014, 09:08 AM
HD is finally down for the count in my old 2007 model MBP, so I ordered another 480GB SSD from Amazon; this time it is costing $217. Hope to get it today and install this weekend.

cwa107
06-27-2014, 09:09 AM
HD is finally down for the count in my old 2007 model MBP, so I ordered another 480GB SSD from Amazon; this time it is costing $216. Hope to get it today and install this weekend.

Did you go with the Crucial m500? I did back in December (I think) and couldn't be happier. Fantastic drive and a great price.

RavingMac
06-27-2014, 09:11 AM
Yep, ordered the same as last time, Crucial M500. Only difference is about $70 cheaper. :)

cwa107
06-27-2014, 09:26 AM
Yep, ordered the same as last time, Crucial M500. Only difference is about $70 cheaper. :)

Slightly OT, but I just ordered the Cal-Digit Thunderbolt dock. It should be getting here today, can't wait.

RavingMac
06-27-2014, 09:34 AM
Slightly OT, but I just ordered the Cal-Digit Thunderbolt dock. It should be getting here today, can't wait.

Interested to see how it works for you . . . mine has been great.

RavingMac
06-27-2014, 10:56 PM
Surgery is done and the patient lives! ;)

Trickier job replacing the HD on the 2007 MBP, the 2012 model was easy, but done and buttoned up, and everything seems to work fine.

pigoo3
06-27-2014, 11:34 PM
Surgery is done and the patient lives! ;)

Trickier job replacing the HD on the 2007 MBP, the 2012 model was easy, but done and buttoned up, and everything seems to work fine.

Feels like a new machine!:)

- Nick

RavingMac
06-27-2014, 11:35 PM
Feels like a new machine!:)

- Nick

It is noticeably peppier . . . :D