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vansmith
09-10-2013, 11:44 AM
Hi everyone,

To keep the conversation about today's presentation and announcements coherent and together, I've started this thread that we can use to discuss the presentation as/before/after it happens.

The presentation happens at 10AM Pacific (N.A.), 1PM Eastern (N.A.), 6PM in England, 7PM in W. Europe and late at night/early in the morning for our Australian contingent.

Places to follow:
- Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/09/apple-iphone-liveblog-tomorrow/)
- Ars Technica (http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/09/liveblog-apple-to-brighten-everyones-day-on-10-september-at-10am-pdt/)

AUZambo
09-10-2013, 01:54 PM
Is there any hope for a video stream?

dtravis7
09-10-2013, 03:16 PM
Watched it on Cnet. They had a vote. I voted Not Impressed! Yes, I said it.

New plastic 5c with many colors but same CPU as iPhone 5.

New Champagne Gold 5s with 64-Bit CPU, camera they claim is SLR quality (HA) and what i knew was coming, the NSA's dream, Fingerprint sensor under new Crystal home button. You can't use the phone without your fingerprints. That is pretty much it. I will review the Cnet stuff and post more if I missed anything. You use your fingerprint also on the iTunes store.

Ok let the hate Dennis comments start, I don't care! :D after what I saw I am more and more wanting a Windows 8 phone.

iggibar
09-10-2013, 03:22 PM
I like the new 5S. I want it, but my upgrade isn't available until early January:) As of lately, one of my most important needs is the ability to quickly take multiple photos and videos without carrying a camera. I have a feeling this will take good photos, and have easy syncing.

chscag
09-10-2013, 03:22 PM
Hey Dennis, Gold is pretty! Think of all the ladies who will be buying Gold iPhones! :P

I do like the fingerprint thing though. Although I think something that measured your DNA would be better. Now instead of the NSA listening in on your phone conversations, they can also get your fingerprints! ;P

Jayseph
09-10-2013, 03:37 PM
Pretty impressed actually. I can upgrade in October, but not sure if I will do it immediately. I have a lot of life left in my 4S.

No hate, Dennis, but after so many awful Windows experiences I have had, I can't imagine getting a phone that has Microsoft anything.

AUZambo
09-10-2013, 03:44 PM
For those of you saying you aren't impressed, has anyone ever really been overly impressed with the "S" model keynotes?

dtravis7
09-10-2013, 04:29 PM
I was impressed with the 4s. Also the 3gs was a very good upgrade, so yes in fact. My 3gs STILL works very well with the latest IOS except IOS7 will finally stop that.

vansmith
09-10-2013, 04:42 PM
The iPhone 5C reminds me an awful lot of the Lumia 620 and 625. And cheap too? Hmmm, Apple's after an interestingly non Apple-esque market.

dtravis7
09-10-2013, 04:48 PM
How about the OS between the Lumina and 5c? I am very impressed with wp8 for a touch device.

odenkun
09-10-2013, 05:06 PM
All the leaks and trustworthy rumors kinda ruined the presentation. We all knew what's coming. That's my impression. The major differences between 5 and 5S are not a lot. My co-worker is going to upgrade from 4S to 5S and I will see how it works but I doubt I will switch my 5 to 5S.

cwa107
09-10-2013, 05:12 PM
My iPhone 5 does everything I want it to. Seeing as I just bought it in July, I'm kind of happy the 5S doesn't have any one feature I couldn't live without.

64-bit processing is kind of interesting, considering it's very new to the ARM architecture. Seems like Apple is doing a bit of future-proofing, or perhaps a bit of one-upmanship in terms of specs. In practical terms, I don't see it making a huge impact on performance, at least for now.

I do like the fingerprint sensor idea as I am one who uses a PIN (I'm required to for work email synchronization). But then, entering my PIN has become second-nature and is not really a big deal now that I've gotten used to it.

Anyway, it's yet another lackluster WWDC keynote. Wake me up when there's some Mac/OS X or even some iPad news.

vansmith
09-10-2013, 05:24 PM
64-bit processing is kind of interesting, considering it's very new to the ARM architecture. Seems like Apple is doing a bit of future-proofing, or perhaps a bit of one-upmanship in terms of specs.I find this interesting. Right now, especially for a mobile device, it's utterly useless. Then again, much mobile technology is right now (there's no reason that my Nexus 4 needs 4 processing cores...it's a phone). That's not a criticism but more of an interesting development. What does Apple have planned for it? No phone on the market needs 64-bit processing to manage more RAM (and if it gets to that point, it won't be Apple getting there first) and increasing space for large integer processing is...well, this is a phone, not a scientific machine.

If this is future-proofing or one up manship, it's an interesting change for Apple, a company that usually disregards the arms race in their development.

cwa107
09-10-2013, 05:26 PM
I find this interesting. Right now, especially for a mobile device, it's utterly useless. Then again, much mobile technology is right now (there's no reason that my Nexus 4 needs 4 processing cores...it's a phone). That's not a criticism but more of an interesting development. What does Apple have planned for it? No phone on the market needs 64-bit processing to manage more RAM (and if it gets to that point, it won't be Apple getting there first) and increasing space for large integer processing is...well, this is a phone, not a scientific machine.

If this is future-proofing or one up manship, it's an interesting change for Apple, a company that usually disregards the arms race in their development.

As usual, we share the same opinion, but you're able to put it together in a much more eloquent way :)

danny842003
09-10-2013, 05:58 PM
Well I cant wait to get my hands on one. My 4 has been ruining so slow for about 6 months and i smashed the screen about 4 months ago and put a cheap eBay screen on it that is driving me mad.

dtravis7
09-10-2013, 07:21 PM
I was hoping for a comment from Van on his thoughts on IOS7 VS Windows 8 phone.

vansmith
09-10-2013, 09:20 PM
I was hoping for a comment from Van on his thoughts on IOS7 VS Windows 8 phone.Haha, my thoughts on iOS are crystal clear at this point (for those who don't know, I think it's fine just not as revolutionary as it once was). WP8 still intrigues me - I like the paradigm and minimalistic aesthetics but I couldn't possibly own a device running it.

I read an interesting statement today about the 64-bit transition on OSNews (http://www.osnews.com/story/27313/Apple_announces_new_iPhones):
I doubt 64bit will provide much benefit today, but you have to hand it to Apple: at least they're done with the transition before it's even needed.The way mobile phones are developing and becoming normal tools in social and business workflows, there's little doubt that 64-bit will be the norm at some point much like it did with PCs (I mean this in the broadest sense). This is where I think this is interesting - Apple got the transition over with now before anyone cared so that when (if?) it does, Apple will have long since prepared for it. This of course assumes that the 32 to 64 bit transition is all that painful which, if personal computing is any sign, it's really not. Regardless, this isn't to detract from the early work that Apple has done which certainly isn't harmful (the value is still to be judged though).

Stretch
09-10-2013, 09:44 PM
I'm eagerly awaiting my 5S. Looking forward to the fingerprint scanner (fingerprints are said, by Apple, to be stored locally on the iPhone, no iCloud/NSA involvement) and the new camera. Plus the larger screen as I'm still on a 4S.

RONE
09-10-2013, 09:46 PM
I'll be moving from my 4S to a 5S. Looking forward to it.

Slydude
09-10-2013, 10:04 PM
I'm still on a iPhone 4 which I got dirt cheap a few months ago. At the time I was saving pennies against the possibility of need ing a new Mac.

I was in the AT&T store recently and the rep clued me in to their device replacement option (which I mistakenly thought was only for non Apple gear). A 5s would be nice but I think I will be using the replacement program to replace my first gen iPad. I'm having to reboot it more often lately - especially when installing app updates.

lclev
09-10-2013, 10:29 PM
Well for what it is worth I have no use for any phone that requires a fingerprint to access it. I have had a fingerprint sensor on two different laptops and neither worked well. Or it could just be me. I have had two jobs that required background checks and it takes them forever to get a good set of prints from me using a scanner.

I will just stick with my Note II. Love it.

Lisa

dwhygienist
09-10-2013, 10:45 PM
Sadly, I have to wait till the end of Feb 2014 to upgrade my phone- by then the smoke will have cleared, the long lines will have passed and any bugs(if any) will have been fixed. i do think the fingerprint would be good on the iPad as more sensitive information is on a tablet over a phone. Probably will see that in late 2014. I wish they will announce the new iPad so the price will drop on the current model.

osxx
09-10-2013, 10:54 PM
I will have to wait another year do to contract but after watching the Keynote I would love to get one.

CanuckBoater
09-10-2013, 11:47 PM
Next phone will be a Samsung Note 3.

As for the 5s, not much left in the Apple pipeline. What little there is gets scooped weeks ahead of announcement.

This phone should've had a larger screen.

Lifeisabeach
09-11-2013, 12:28 AM
This phone should've had a larger screen.

And yet it will sell like hotcakes and Apple will be unable to keep up with demand, just like every other version of the iPhone to date. Thus disproving the notion that everyone wants a bigger screen.

Lifeisabeach
09-11-2013, 12:53 AM
I was in the "meh" camp with the iPhone 5, but I don't understand why people aren't impressed with the 5S. It has dramatically improved processing power; significant improvements to the camera and flash, which I suspect will once again be proven to be best in class; a fingerprint scanner that, if it works as designed, will be a more pleasant alternative to unlocking with a PIN; the motion co-processessor that will open up some fitness tracking options, or improve upon existing ones. The switch to a 64-bit processor has more implications than some people think, though I don't think it will be beneficial now for much more than a handful of math-intensive apps, based on what I've read. All in all, I'd say this is a very impressive update. Why people think it isn't just baffles me. What, exactly, do those people want? Besides a giant screen?

chscag
09-11-2013, 03:02 AM
What, exactly, do those people want? Besides a giant screen?

I agree. If I need a larger screen, I can just continue to use my iPad 3. I now have to see how much T-Mobile is going to charge for the 5S and if they too will initiate a trade in program.

Nighthawk4
09-11-2013, 04:50 AM
Note the slight difference between UK and US prices again.

Pity, as the 5c doesn't look too bad.

I suppose the 5s isn't bad if you can afford it :(

TattooedMac
09-11-2013, 07:53 AM
I was in the "meh" camp with the iPhone 5, but I don't understand why people aren't impressed with the 5S. It has dramatically improved processing power; significant improvements to the camera and flash, which I suspect will once again be proven to be best in class; a fingerprint scanner that, if it works as designed, will be a more pleasant alternative to unlocking with a PIN; the motion co-processessor that will open up some fitness tracking options, or improve upon existing ones.

I agree wholeheartedly . . . 64Bit for christ sake, thats a massive, HUGE step up, and yea nothing apart from Infinity Blade III is the only thing that will use its power and in the KeyNote, i must admit it looked amazing. The sad thing is, is im not a gamer, so i cant see where a 64Bit Phone would help me out in real life activities . . . . . . Yet !!!!! But come on people, its 64Bit and thats a HECK of a lot of power for a Phone. A true Mini Computer. AND ALL WITH 250HRS standby :)

Now i just hope they are heading this way with the iPad Mini and ill be first in line. Actually, im going to be hitting Refresh or take a trip to the big smoke when they release the Retina 64Bit M7 (sounds very British Spy stuff) finger scanner 11MP twin Flash camera iPad Mini because thats what im getting :) With free iLife and iWork so ill hold off on that purchase lol


Note the slight difference between UK and US prices again.

Pity, as the 5c doesn't look too bad.

I suppose the 5s isn't bad if you can afford it :(

If i wanted to get rid of my 6mth old iPhone 5 and replace it, it would set me back $999 AUD, so unless i can sell my 6mth old iPhone 5 for $600+ it aint going to happen.

Lifeisabeach
09-11-2013, 09:24 AM
I agree. If I need a larger screen, I can just continue to use my iPad 3. I now have to see how much T-Mobile is going to charge for the 5S and if they too will initiate a trade in program.

My contract on my 4S is due up in a month or so. I'm planning to unlock it, then see how my coverage is here. If it's good enough, especially at home, we're switching. I won't be upgrading if I do though... I'm fine with my 4S and would like to get at least 3 years out of it, but it'd make no sense to bother if I can't switch since I can sell it for what it'd cost to upgrade and my rates don't change off contract.

vansmith
09-11-2013, 10:23 AM
I was in the "meh" camp with the iPhone 5, but I don't understand why people aren't impressed with the 5S.Because, for many, the features aren't all that amazing. a 64-bit processor means nothing for the average user (for now at least), it's an 8 MP camera in a 13 MP world, it's a dual core chip in a quad core world and it likely has significantly less memory than other flagship phones. Whether or not those are valid is irrelevant since those, in conjunction with the rather diminutive screen, will all be critiques brought up for the time coming.


I agree wholeheartedly . . . 64Bit for christ sake, thats a massive, HUGE step up, [...] But come on people, its 64Bit and thats a HECK of a lot of power for a Phone..How so? This is honestly what I don't get out of this presentation (that and the migration to what is essentially a plastic iPhone 5). The application stack won't be 64-bit compatible, in its entirety, for years since non-64 bit platforms still have to be supported. Speed gains are negligible or in some cases, 64-bit processors hinder performance (source (http://blog.tune-up.com/windows-insights/32-bit-vs-64-bit-more-bit-more-performance/)). 64-bit applications are also larger in size as well (source (http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/166244-iphone-5s-the-64-bit-a7-chip-is-marketing-fluff-and-wont-improve-performance)). Where does it hinder performance most? Machines with less than 4GB of RAM, which is every smartphone in the world. Should (when?) smartphones reach that level, it certainly won't be Apple getting their first either. In this sense, the 64-bit processor is little more than marketing for Apple right now since, at a technical level, it may actually be detrimental in some respects.

Lifeisabeach
09-11-2013, 12:30 PM
Because, for many, the features aren't all that amazing. a 64-bit processor means nothing for the average user (for now at least), it's an 8 MP camera in a 13 MP world, it's a dual core chip in a quad core world and it likely has significantly less memory than other flagship phones. Whether or not those are valid is irrelevant since those, in conjunction with the rather diminutive screen, will all be critiques brought up for the time coming.

The average users are idiots then. More megapixels don't automatically mean better pictures. Apple is making a lot of other improvements to make the pictures better. Jacking up the number of megapixels would negate those improvements to some degree. And bear in mind that the picture quality of photos taken by the past 2-3 iPhone models have been widely considered best in class at the time those models were released. As for the A7 being a dual-core... again something that only matters to people who only focus on specs, and even then they are only narrowly focusing on specs that are widely marketed. There is so much more to processor design and indeed the design of the entire logic board that affects performance, but the industry plays up on the general ignorance of the public about this and focuses their marketing on a select few specs that grab your attention. What should matter is how it performs in real life, which they say is up to twice as fast as the iPhone 5. As someone who is still very happy with the performance of my iPhone 4S, I'd venture that any performance hits that the 64-bit architecture may bring won't even be noticeable, and being "simply" a dual-core processor won't exactly be a handicap.

So basically, yes, I guess I should understand why people are unimpressed. They are the real sheep who buy into marketing buzzwords. It's the whole "PC vs Mac" wars based on specs all over again. ;)


How so? This is honestly what I don't get out of this presentation (that and the migration to what is essentially a plastic iPhone 5). The application stack won't be 64-bit compatible, in its entirety, for years since non-64 bit platforms still have to be supported. Speed gains are negligible or in some cases, 64-bit processors hinder performance (source (http://blog.tune-up.com/windows-insights/32-bit-vs-64-bit-more-bit-more-performance/)). 64-bit applications are also larger in size as well (source (http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/166244-iphone-5s-the-64-bit-a7-chip-is-marketing-fluff-and-wont-improve-performance)). Where does it hinder performance most? Machines with less than 4GB of RAM, which is every smartphone in the world. Should (when?) smartphones reach that level, it certainly won't be Apple getting their first either. In this sense, the 64-bit processor is little more than marketing for Apple right now since, at a technical level, it may actually be detrimental in some respects.

There are some plusses to going to 64-bit now. I'll just point to one comment on Ars Technica since he makes the point better than I can:
Apple unveils 64-bit iPhone 5S with fingerprint scanner, $199 for 16GB | Ars Technica (http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/09/apple-unveils-64-bit-iphone-5s/?comments=1&post=25262225#comment-25262225)

It's only a matter of time before they will really NEED to go to 64-bit architecture, so why not start now, especially if there is no practical downside to it? If for no other reason, it will get their developers a head start.

vansmith
09-11-2013, 01:20 PM
There are some plusses to going to 64-bit now. I'll just point to one comment on Ars Technica since he makes the point better than I can:
Apple unveils 64-bit iPhone 5S with fingerprint scanner, $199 for 16GB | Ars Technica (http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/09/apple-unveils-64-bit-iphone-5s/?comments=1&post=25262225#comment-25262225)That quote fails to recognize that mapping considerably more memory space hits the battery hard which might explain why most phones (Android ones at least since it's these phones that play the spec game) only go to 2GB and no further. If the purpose of the 64 bit processor is indeed to enable greater memory stores, I hope Apple spent a lot of time scaling back the power usage in the A7 cores. I imagine that they know of all this though. ;)

fluhartz
09-11-2013, 01:27 PM
Next phone will be a Samsung Note 3.

As for the 5s, not much left in the Apple pipeline. What little there is gets scooped weeks ahead of announcement.

This phone should've had a larger screen.


Totally disagree. I want a phone not a tablet. Some of the sizes of phones are ridiculous. I mean if they want to have a couple different sizes..ok, but don't make them all big. I love the size of the iPhone just the way it is.

Lifeisabeach
09-11-2013, 01:36 PM
That quote fails to recognize that mapping considerably more memory space hits the battery hard which might explain why most phones (Android ones at least since it's these phones that play the spec game) only go to 2GB and no further. If the purpose of the 64 bit processor is indeed to enable greater memory stores, I hope Apple spent a lot of time scaling back the power usage in the A7 cores. I imagine that they know of all this though. ;)

If the battery life truly is the same as or better than the iPhone 5 as they claim, then I guess they have. Unless they figured out how to squeeze a bigger battery in there. ;D

vansmith
09-11-2013, 01:46 PM
Totally disagree. I want a phone not a tablet. Some of the sizes of phones are ridiculous. I mean if they want to have a couple different sizes..ok, but don't make them all big. I love the size of the iPhone just the way it is.A larger screen doesn't make it a tablet. My phone has a 4.7" screen and it's hardly a tablet. In fact, it's amazing how quickly you come to appreciate the screen size difference.


If the battery life truly is the same as or better than the iPhone 5 as they claim, then I guess they have. Unless they figured out how to squeeze a bigger battery in there. ;DThey managed to keep the numbers relatively consistent from the 5 to the 5s. Depending what you read, that's either sufficient or it fails to keep up with the growth in batteries available in other phones (searching for a clear answer to this is like searching for an objective answer to the question "which is the best colour?").

fluhartz
09-11-2013, 01:57 PM
A larger screen doesn't make it a tablet. My phone has a 4.7" screen and it's hardly a tablet. In fact, it's amazing how quickly you come to appreciate the screen size difference.


Maybe so, because I haven't used one for a long period of time. I have only held them at stores and used other peoples for a little bit. So you never know, but I like the size of the iPhone from what I know

Lifeisabeach
09-11-2013, 02:10 PM
They managed to keep the numbers relatively consistent from the 5 to the 5s. Depending what you read, that's either sufficient or it fails to keep up with the growth in batteries available in other phones (searching for a clear answer to this is like searching for an objective answer to the question "which is the best colour?").

The growth in battery capacity is in part made possible by the growth in the size of those phones, thus allowing for bigger batteries. ;)

Personally I think Apple should and eventually will make a larger iPhone available. It may not be entirely feasible right now because they will still be making the 4S for another year, and I suspect they don't want to throw in a 3rd screen size into production.

vansmith
09-11-2013, 02:33 PM
Maybe so, because I haven't used one for a long period of time. I have only held them at stores and used other peoples for a little bit. So you never know, but I like the size of the iPhone from what I knowIt's all about expectations and preferences. For example, I know that when I hold an iPhone, all I can think is "What is this? A centre for ants?" (bonus points if you get the reference). That doesn't make it bad, just unexpected. ;)


The growth in battery capacity is in part made possible by the growth in the size of those phones, thus allowing for bigger batteries. ;)True. The size does afford space for a larger battery (hence why the Note 2 can last, apparently, for days on end).


Personally I think Apple should and eventually will make a larger iPhone available. It may not be entirely feasible right now because they will still be making the 4S for another year, and I suspect they don't want to throw in a 3rd screen size into production.I wonder if Apple can get around this issue by doing what they did with the iPad Mini - change the size and resolution but keep the ratio the same.

fluhartz
09-11-2013, 02:44 PM
It's all about expectations and preferences. For example, I know that when I hold an iPhone, all I can think is "What is this? A centre for ants?" (bonus points if you get the reference). That doesn't make it bad, just unexpected. ;)

ha ha... I was racking my brain... I knew I had heard it before, and finally had to go the where all of the answers are... Google

How can we be expected to teach children to learn how to read... if they can't even fit inside the building?

Very nice reference...

dtravis7
09-11-2013, 03:32 PM
I have nothing against the 5S. I just don't see much improvement for todays usage with it. 64-Bit maybe down the road but not now? Fingerprint? That scares me.

But I do agree with LB, Megapixels mean NOTHING by themselves. It's the Lens quality and with that processor and new lens it's an amazing camera. I disagree it's a SLR in every way but it's outstanding. I saw some shots Anand and his partner took, It's an excellent camera with far better pics than ones with much higher MP.

the whole MP thing reminds me of the High End audio people back when I was a kid. WATTS is everything, No it's not, Low Distortion, THD, IM and Transient IM is much more important than just WATTS. Also Watts at what frequency bandwidth.

I have owned 3MP cameras that took better pics than some newer poorly designed 6MP cameras.

It was the 5c that really did not impress me as it's a plastic 5 with the same specs. The lower price is nice though and I like the blue one.

MYmacROX
09-11-2013, 04:13 PM
I'm sticking to my 2 year upgrade routine. iP4 -> iP5 -> iP6 (next year obviously)

I don't use a pass code to use my phone so the finger print thing is a feature that I thought looked "cool", but nothing more. Also, unless I'm mistaken, it can be turned off. You don't have to use your fingerprint to use your phone. Conspiracy theory averted.

I'm in the market for a new iPad, so I was kinda hoping they might throw in an announcement about a new line of iPads too. Oh well, maybe in a month or two.

Colors are interesting and I actually like the uninterrupted flow of a one-piece phone body. But it's just not for me. Don't like the gold color either.

Excited to get my hands on iOS 7 next week!

dtravis7
09-11-2013, 04:20 PM
Can you provide a URL that says Fingerprint scanning to log in can be turned off? I have yet to see that mentioned.

MYmacROX
09-11-2013, 05:01 PM
Can you provide a URL that says Fingerprint scanning to log in can be turned off? I have yet to see that mentioned.

It was merely the impression I got from the keynote. I could be wrong, but I'm understanding it to be a feature the same as a lock screen is optional. If it's non-optional, that would really be annoying. Not everyone will want that feature. Hmm...

danny842003
09-11-2013, 05:18 PM
it's an 8 MP camera in a 13 MP world,

What does that even mean?

As has been pointed out already total nonsense comment. My DSLR is only 18 MP and the sensor is probably close to ten times the size of that in the iPhone if not more.

On another note Orange are claiming no pre-orders and I have to call them on the 21st. Not best pleased really. Just want to get my upgrade sorted now.

TattooedMac
09-11-2013, 09:14 PM
This phone should've had a larger screen.

iPhone 6 will have a 6" screen . . . . .


Because, for many, the features aren't all that amazing. a 64-bit processor means nothing for the average user (for now at least), it's an 8 MP camera in a 13 MP world,

Then have a read of this. It doesnt emphasise MP but does where they are going with the phone
iPhone 5S and More About User Problems | Gearophile | Thom Hogan (http://www.gearophile.com/newsviews/iphone-5s-and-more-about.html)


How so? .

Im sorry but the way Infinity Blade III played and the detail, says better user experience and thats what Apple looks for . .


It's all about expectations and preferences. For example, I know that when I hold an iPhone, all I can think is "What is this? A centre for ants?" (bonus points if you get the reference)

My all time Fav movie . . . . Knew what yu meant straight away LMAO and still am. Going to watch it again today :P

"The centre has to be . . . . . . . . . . . . At least 3 times bigger than this !!"

CanuckBoater
09-11-2013, 09:44 PM
My comments regarding larger screen size reflect the 'evolving' way I'm using a smartphone. It doesn't have to be as small as a phone because....I rarely make calls.

If I'm using my 'phone' as a computer, increase the screen size.

vansmith
09-11-2013, 10:07 PM
What does that even mean?

As has been pointed out already total nonsense comment.Most flagship phones have high megapixel counts for cameras (most averaging 13 MP). A simple look at the flagships now will make it crystal clear that this comment is far from nonsense.

Lifeisabeach
09-12-2013, 12:20 AM
What does that even mean?

As has been pointed out already total nonsense comment. My DSLR is only 18 MP and the sensor is probably close to ten times the size of that in the iPhone if not more.

I believe he's just making an observation as to why some people are unimpressed with the 5S, with those particular people being lemmings who are too focused on certain specs. I don't "think" vansmith is naive enough to fall into that line of thinking himself, but I'll give him a chance to prove me wrong. ;D

Lifeisabeach
09-12-2013, 12:32 AM
I have nothing against the 5S. I just don't see much improvement for todays usage with it. 64-Bit maybe down the road but not now? Fingerprint? That scares me.

There are some apps that will benefit from the 64-bit move now from what I've read, but they are pretty specialized and do intense mathematical calculations. For the average user, I'd agree. Although at the same time, it's one of those things where you can't write software to take advantage of nonexistent architecture. Personally, I'm still very pleased with how well my 4S performs, but it's not keeping me from appreciating the advances in the 5S.

As for the fingerprint scanner... well we all know that Apple rarely nails a new tech feature right the first time. I'll be curious to see what shortcomings it has that will be ironed out in the iPhone 6.


the whole MP thing reminds me of the High End audio people back when I was a kid. WATTS is everything, No it's not, Low Distortion, THD, IM and Transient IM is much more important than just WATTS. Also Watts at what frequency bandwidth.

That reminds me of back in the 80's when some car stereo manufacturers would quote the THD at a single frequency that happened to be really really low, but bury the THD across the full range. I knew a guy who was all excited about a Kenwood car stereo because of its .001 THD. I didn't have the heart to tell him that it was at a single frequency and that the overall value was much less impressive.

dtravis7
09-12-2013, 01:41 AM
There are some apps that will benefit from the 64-bit move now from what I've read, but they are pretty specialized and do intense mathematical calculations. For the average user, I'd agree. Although at the same time, it's one of those things where you can't write software to take advantage of nonexistent architecture. Personally, I'm still very pleased with how well my 4S performs, but it's not keeping me from appreciating the advances in the 5S.

I am not against it but right now it's not much of a feature to write home about but in the future I am sure it will be the way to go.



That reminds me of back in the 80's when some car stereo manufacturers would quote the THD at a single frequency that happened to be really really low, but bury the THD across the full range. I knew a guy who was all excited about a Kenwood car stereo because of its .001 THD. I didn't have the heart to tell him that it was at a single frequency and that the overall value was much less impressive.

Agree for sure. Specs like that really do not tell the true story. I have an 8MB Canon that overall looks better than a lot of 10-12 MP's I have seen because it even with my user error, takes clear pics. I have tried other higher MP cameras and the pics were blurred with my of late shaky hands. MP is not the only spec. At the end of the day the better looking pics win the game! :D Grin

If someone gave me a 5s I would use it and keep it. I just can not afford it right now and felt they could have maybe added a few more things. The screen size when you consider it's a phone does not bug me in the least. I would not want a larger phone. I want it to fit comfortably in my pocket thank you!

chas_m
09-12-2013, 07:31 AM
I have, until recently, made plenty of money with a 6MP camera. My new one is 10.1MP.

Pixels are not the be-all and end-all of photos. Take lousy 13MP shot versus a great 8MP shot and you get one guess which one consumers care about getting more often.

I'll wait for better photographers and experts than I to test and weigh in on the iPhone 5S camera, but what little I've seen looks AMAZING. The sensor is bigger, the aperture is better, the pixels are larger and clearly the pre- and post- sensors and processing are improved.

If 13MP was better than 8MP in every case, then why is the most popular CAMERA in the world found on an iPhone? Why hasn't the 41MP Lumia stormed the market?

chas_m
09-12-2013, 07:31 AM
iPhone 6 will have a 6" screen . . . . .

Nope.

danny842003
09-12-2013, 08:29 AM
Most flagship phones have high megapixel counts for cameras (most averaging 13 MP). A simple look at the flagships now will make it crystal clear that this comment is far from nonsense.

Yeah but 13 MP means literally nothing as a stand alone figure.
Its a nonsense comparison. One almost invented by developers to fool people in to thinking they are getting something better than they are.
Compare images not pixels.

mrplow
09-12-2013, 09:03 AM
Can you provide a URL that says Fingerprint scanning to log in can be turned off? I have yet to see that mentioned.

A few hands on reviews (USA Today springs to mind but they weren't alone) say you can still opt for passcode/swipe to unlock.

For me I don't see the big deal. What can anyone really do with my fingerprint that they can't do with all the other information that can be harvested in countless other ways?

And why hack it/capture it from my phone? Why not take it straight from customs when I went to the US? Why not from any one of the dozens of things I touch everyday?

For me the convenience (assuming it works sufficiently well) of easy access to my phone trumps any negative.

There have been fingerprint readers on works windows laptops for many years. Never have I seen any such assurance about how it will be used.
Apple say it won't leave the device. If it does.... look forward to a nice payout ;)

Interesting article about mass market biometrics here (http://www.chyp.com/media/blog-entry/the-focus-on-biometrics-in-the-mass-market)

vansmith
09-12-2013, 09:47 AM
Im sorry but the way Infinity Blade III played and the detail, says better user experience and thats what Apple looks for . .Was that because of the 64-bit processor?


Yeah but 13 MP means literally nothing as a stand alone figure.
Its a nonsense comparison. One almost invented by developers to fool people in to thinking they are getting something better than they are.
Compare images not pixels.

I believe he's just making an observation as to why some people are unimpressed with the 5S, with those particular people being lemmings who are too focused on certain specs. I don't "think" vansmith is naive enough to fall into that line of thinking himself, but I'll give him a chance to prove me wrong. ;D
Instead of once again responding to your claims that I'm making a nonsense comparison (which, in no way am I doing so), I'll just leave lifeisabeach's astute observation here as to why, to quote myself, "many" people will complain.

osxx
09-12-2013, 12:28 PM
What i found out early about megapixel wars if everything else in the camera does not take an upgrade it equates to digital noise.

RONE
09-12-2013, 11:46 PM
I was in the "meh" camp with the iPhone 5, but I don't understand why people aren't impressed with the 5S. It has dramatically improved processing power; significant improvements to the camera and flash, which I suspect will once again be proven to be best in class; a fingerprint scanner that, if it works as designed, will be a more pleasant alternative to unlocking with a PIN; the motion co-processessor that will open up some fitness tracking options, or improve upon existing ones. The switch to a 64-bit processor has more implications than some people think, though I don't think it will be beneficial now for much more than a handful of math-intensive apps, based on what I've read. All in all, I'd say this is a very impressive update. Why people think it isn't just baffles me. What, exactly, do those people want? Besides a giant screen?

Couldn't agree more. The 5S is a very impressive phone.

Lifeisabeach
09-13-2013, 12:31 AM
I found this little tidbit from an article via Daring Fireball:
Why the iPhone's fingerprint sensor is better than the ones on older laptops | CITEworld (http://www.citeworld.com/security/22399/iphone-fingerprint-scanner-better-biometrics)


With the new sensors you don't have to move your finger, just press it against the reader. And like the sensor in the iPhone 5S, the sensors that will be in laptops and keyboards and other phones can detect the ridge and valley pattern of your fingerprint not from the layer of dead skin on the outside of your finger (which a fake finger can easily replicate), but from the living layer of skin under the surface of your finger, using an RF signal. That only works on a live finger; not one that's been severed from your body.

What I want to know is... just HOW did they go about testing this????? :o

TattooedMac
09-13-2013, 03:23 AM
Nope.

Was taking the pis ;)


Was that because of the 64-bit processor?

Yes and thats how Apple sold it to the crowd. Load times, change of scenery, the detail in the Final Boss, a Dragon. It did look stunning.

And now Samsung S5 will be 64Bit too (http://www.cnet.com.au/samsung-64-bit-cpu-coming-to-galaxy-phones-339345441.htm) hahaha

Lifeisabeach
09-13-2013, 09:45 AM
And now Samsung S5 will be 64Bit too (http://www.cnet.com.au/samsung-64-bit-cpu-coming-to-galaxy-phones-339345441.htm) hahaha

Of course they are. I'm just wondering how they plan to pull that off since Android doesn't even support 64-bit architecture yet. I assume it was either in the pipeline for the next release already, or will be prioritized now?

Speaking of which... Samsung has moved on from copying Apple and is now copying Dyson. Yes... they are ripping off vacuum cleaner designs and infringing on Dyson's patents (EDIT: "allegedly", I should say in all fairness).
Dyson sues Samsung for 'cynical rip off' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/engineering/10298910/Dyson-sues-Samsung-for-cynical-rip-off.html)

vansmith
09-13-2013, 01:26 PM
Yes and thats how Apple sold it to the crowd.So, marketing? Is there any empirical evidence to back that up? I have to imagine that much of the improvement actually has to do with the newer GPU.


Of course they are. I'm just wondering how they plan to pull that off since Android doesn't even support 64-bit architecture yet.The kernel, being Linux, can certainly be built for a 64-bit architecture (the joys of running...everywhere). As for the layers of top, who knows. The UI is written with Java and I imagine that Dalvik can be rebuilt for 64-bit but your guess is as good as mine. You know, this is an interesting question.

TattooedMac
09-13-2013, 10:05 PM
Of course they are. I'm just wondering how they plan to pull that off since Android doesn't even support 64-bit architecture yet. I assume it was either in the pipeline for the next release already, or will be prioritized now?

The CEO siad its not going to happen NOW, but it will be coming in the new S5 which i reckon, have just changed their whole outlook on the S5 for a 64Bit CPU. Samsung other articles read, got a BIG kick in the shins, because they just didnt expect Apple to come out with a 64Bit Phone, and Apple has now future proofed themselves even if it cant be fully used now, at least they have done the hard yards for when Gaming/Developing Apps have caught up.

What i find interesting, is with the Xcode 5 Seeds for the last 3 months, no-one has seen anything in there, indicating that we will be working with a 64bit architecture in the iPhone.

On that though, in the Keynote, the Dev of Infinity Blade III said he Ported the whole game over from 32Bit to 64Bit in 2hrs and its backwards compatible as well.


So, marketing? Is there any empirical evidence to back that up? I have to imagine that much of the improvement actually has to do with the newer GPU.

Yea Marketing, BUT its showing what power and what can be achieved with the 64Bit, and i bet companies like 2K, GameLoft, SQUARE ENIX, Phosphor Game Studios LLC and the high end Gaming Companies to move to Top Quality, big MB/GB gaming.

As well from what i know of it, it has a lot to do with Mathematics and the computing power some Developers will be able to make powerful Apps like CAD, 3D Rendering and such as well.

vansmith
09-14-2013, 11:30 AM
All of those companies you listed make heavy use of graphics functionality which can be divorced from the architecture of the chip. In other words, it's the GPU, not the CPU. This is not to suggest that the CPU is bad or useless but rather, at this point, rather unneeded. In fact, with only 1GB of memory (what word on the street seems to suggest) and the glut of 32bit devices that will receive priority for many developers for the foreseeable future, I can't imagine that any true potential that comes from having a 64bit processor will be seen anytime soon (for all mobile devices).

fleurya
09-14-2013, 07:33 PM
I for one am very excited about the 5S and plan to order at 3am and/or stalk some of my local non-Apple stores for one next Friday. I was really excited about the fingerprint reader security. As a person that uses this to log into my work Thinkpad about 20 times a day, I can appreciate the little bit a time saving and ease it offer. I use my iPhone and SIRI in my car a lot, and having to punch in my passcode while driving is just not a option, so I don't use it. Now I can without having to take my eyes off the road. Plus there is so much potential for use of it beyond simple logon and purchase authorization.

As for the 64-bit architecture, I was happy to hear about that as well. Usually for the "in between" S models they don't get huge jumps in specs. This was a big jump that will make this S model more future-proof. Also, it was something that nobody expected or rumored, so it's nice to know Apple can still pull some surprises. As far as people complaining it's useless, I'm just tired of all the hate talk. People complain Apple is always behind on specs. But then when they launch something like this (or thunderbolt not too long ago) they complain because nothing can make use of it right out of the gate. You can't complain both ways!

As a part-time amateur photographer, I am also excited about the new camera. 8MP is the least of my concerns since I don't usually take photos with my phone that I plan to blow up to 8x10 prints or larger. The larger sensor, better light sensitivity, better flash, and better aperture are much more interesting to me. The ignorant masses that seem to only care about "empees" can whine and joke all they want. I know what really matters when it comes to photo IQ and will enjoy this camera immensely.

osxx
09-14-2013, 08:25 PM
Of course they are. I'm just wondering how they plan to pull that off since Android doesn't even support 64-bit architecture yet. I assume it was either in the pipeline for the next release already, or will be prioritized now?

Speaking of which... Samsung has moved on from copying Apple and is now copying Dyson. Yes... they are ripping off vacuum cleaner designs and infringing on Dyson's patents (EDIT: "allegedly", I should say in all fairness).
Dyson sues Samsung for 'cynical rip off' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/engineering/10298910/Dyson-sues-Samsung-for-cynical-rip-off.html)
I think they are also in a battle with their fellow countrymen at LG over 4K tech.

vansmith
09-14-2013, 08:47 PM
As far as people complaining it's useless, I'm just tired of all the hate talk. People complain Apple is always behind on specs. But then when they launch something like this (or thunderbolt not too long ago) they complain because nothing can make use of it right out of the gate. You can't complain both ways!It's not complaining in both cases - these specs are useless and serve no productive purpose now. You're suggesting that criticisms levelled again Apple about the overly pronounced marketing practices for a feature that serves little to no value is one that's unjustified because they are now supposedly in front. Yes, they're first to market with a 64 bit smartphone...that's of no use. This effectively moves progress horizontally instead of propelling them forward until people can make productive use of the features. Second, the criticisms are levelled against Apple because no one can conceptualize its utility. It's very hard to conceive of a phone that needs what a 64 bit processor makes possible that a 32 bit one doesn't for these types of devices. Desktops/notebooks - it makes sense for reasons related to memory usage and mathematical reasons.

dtravis7
09-14-2013, 11:36 PM
I love Thunderbolt and am not against the 64-bit CPU in the 5s, All I said was RIGHT NOW it's not as big as a deal as some are making of it BUT it will pave the way for the future for sure. Apple is good at that.

Thunderbolt is an amazing interface. I have never hated it.

Lifeisabeach
09-15-2013, 01:29 AM
It's not complaining in both cases - these specs are useless and serve no productive purpose now. You're suggesting that criticisms levelled again Apple about the overly pronounced marketing practices for a feature that serves little to no value is one that's unjustified because they are now supposedly in front. Yes, they're first to market with a 64 bit smartphone...that's of no use. This effectively moves progress horizontally instead of propelling them forward until people can make productive use of the features. Second, the criticisms are levelled against Apple because no one can conceptualize its utility. It's very hard to conceive of a phone that needs what a 64 bit processor makes possible that a 32 bit one doesn't for these types of devices. Desktops/notebooks - it makes sense for reasons related to memory usage and mathematical reasons.

*sigh* Apple IS in front and ready for the future now. Some apps can benefit now from the 64-bit move. Others will need recompiling (I read of one developer who did it in 2 hours). Saying Apple is premature in bringing 64-bit processing to the iPhone when the apps aren't ready to take advantage of it is like saying Apple was premature in bringing Retina Display because no apps had the graphics for it. Ditto for the gyroscope and any number of other new features. Or the move from PPC to Intel. No one can be ready for non-existant hardware! Here's a good quote from an article with some experts weighing in:


Quote from article: Apple's iPhone 5s, the A7 Chip, and That 64-Bit Question - John Paczkowski - Mobile - AllThingsD (http://allthingsd.com/20130913/apples-iphone-5s-the-a7-chip-and-that-64-bit-question/)

But chip experts say that there are some gains to be had even from a 64-bit chip without 4GB of addressable memory.
For one thing, 64-bit integer math will allow the A7 to execute operations much faster than the 32-bit A6. “The fact that the A7 has twice as many processor registers means that more operations can occur without the processor using main memory, which is slower to access,” Carl Howe, VP of research and data sciences at the Yankee Group told AllThingsD. “This means that for some codes, the A7 will be twice as fast (or faster depending on how many memory accesses the original code had) to run code because the processor doesn’t have to use main memory as much.”
But for most, the gains found here will be marginal, said Moor Insights analyst Paul Teich. “Double the register file adds a few percent to performance,” he said. “It’s a deep compiler and runtime VM issue. … So marginal improvements for most apps, at best. Depending on how code is written it can run a little longer without hitting main memory, but it really depends on whether you are writing a computationally intensive app or not.”
Another benefit: ARMv8, the architecture on which the A7 is likely based, has a very efficient instruction set that’s great for resource-intensive applications. As Kevin Krewell, senior analyst at the Linley Group and a senior editor of Microprocessor Report, told AllThingsD, “The ARMv8 instruction set is a clean-slate approach with many improvements. Even without 4GB of RAM, the A7 should make it easier to build larger applications like PC-class games and programs. Apps can now become real desktop-class programs and games.”
The caveat here is that Apple must maintain backward compatibility with legacy 32-bit apps until the 64-bit ecosystem really kicks in. Said Krewell, “The vast majority of programs will still use the 32-bit mode, so the benefits may be slow to come."

I'm reminded of the feature of Ubuntu's phone OS where you can dock your phone and use it as a desktop computer. Apple's move here to 64-bit may be laying the groundwork for just such an option. Some time back, they had patents filed (and awarded?) for docking a smaller device to a monitor and using it as a desktop computer. So at the least, we know they have been considering it.

dtravis7
09-15-2013, 02:30 AM
I just watched a Hands on use video with the 5s and am very impressed. Very fast, outstanding camera.

chas_m
09-15-2013, 03:24 AM
It seems to me fairly obvious that the 5s is already making use of that 64-bit architecture for things like the camera's pre- and post-processing. Might well be adding some oomph to the graphics as well.

People who say you can't use 64-bit unless you have more than 4GB of RAM are just showing off how little they know about 64-bit processing.

danny842003
09-15-2013, 04:47 AM
It's not complaining in both cases - these specs are useless and serve no productive purpose now. You're suggesting that criticisms levelled again Apple about the overly pronounced marketing practices for a feature that serves little to no value is one that's unjustified because they are now supposedly in front. Yes, they're first to market with a 64 bit smartphone...that's of no use. This effectively moves progress horizontally instead of propelling them forward until people can make productive use of the features. Second, the criticisms are levelled against Apple because no one can conceptualize its utility. It's very hard to conceive of a phone that needs what a 64 bit processor makes possible that a 32 bit one doesn't for these types of devices. Desktops/notebooks - it makes sense for reasons related to memory usage and mathematical reasons.

It is clear that its pointless responding to you as you are just hating on everything apple have done with the 5S. I just cant work out why you even visit an apple forum.

TattooedMac
09-15-2013, 08:52 AM
*sigh* Apple IS in front and ready for the future now. Some apps can benefit now from the 64-bit move. Others will need recompiling (I read of one developer who did it in 2 hours).

Yea the Dev of Infinity Blade III ported it from 32Bit to 64Bit in 2 hrs. Thats all in the Keynote to see.

[QUOTE=lifeisabeach;1537005] Saying Apple is premature in bringing 64-bit processing to the iPhone when the apps aren't ready to take advantage of it is like saying Apple was premature in bringing Retina Display because no apps had the graphics for it. Ditto for the gyroscope and any number of other new features. Or the move from PPC to Intel. No one can be ready for non-existant hardware! Here's a good quote from an article with some experts weighing in:.

+1 and no more needs to be said. My point exactly, and its called future proofing :)


It is clear that its pointless responding to you as you are just hating on everything apple have done with the 5S. I just cant work out why you even visit an apple forum.

Uh oh . . . . . . Here we go !!!! **stands back a good distance**

@danny have you not noticed that vansmith is a Administrator of these here forums ?? Meaning he has a lot to do with Apple and their products, maybe not iPhone, and he is entitled to his own opinion, which is very much what a forum is all about, debating back and forth?
And i would back my next paycheque that he knows more about CPU, GPU, iOS, and performance of chipsets and what holds a iPhone together more than you and probably 99% of the members here on the forum, so what vansmith has to say, in this topic and many others, its best to stand back, read what he has written and learn something . . . . So before you start having a go at one of the most respected members of this forum, stop, breathe in, think and then write something constructive !!!!

danny842003
09-15-2013, 09:03 AM
Well one minute he is moaning that apple didn't bump the specs on the camera. (which would have been specs for specs sake, probably making the camera worse)
The next he is saying the 64 bit side of things is pointless and down for specs sake.

Lifeisabeach
09-15-2013, 09:07 AM
Well one minute he is moaning that apple didn't bump the specs on the camera. (which would have been specs for specs sake, probably making the camera worse)
The next he is saying the 64 bit side of things is pointless and down for specs sake.

No he's not. He's explaining why "some" people are unimpressed with the camera. He doesn't necessarily hold those views himself. I explained this already.

vansmith
09-15-2013, 10:43 AM
People who say you can't use 64-bit unless you have more than 4GB of RAM are just showing off how little they know about 64-bit processing.Such as? You'd be producing the first real reason that it's important (aside from what I found this morning which was the technical need for it for the fingerprint scanner).


It is clear that its pointless responding to you as you are just hating on everything apple have done with the 5S. I just cant work out why you even visit an apple forum.Apple does not make only the iPhone. I'm not going to blindly like everything they do.


Well one minute he is moaning that apple didn't bump the specs on the camera. (which would have been specs for specs sake, probably making the camera worse)
The next he is saying the 64 bit side of things is pointless and down for specs sake.


No he's not. He's explaining why "some" people are unimpressed with the camera. He doesn't necessarily hold those views himself. I explained this already.Once again, lifeisabeach answers this one for me. For the last time, I was trying to explain what the context was, not what I feel. In fact, I couldn't care less about cameras on phones (I actually skip past these parts in reviews).

fleurya
09-17-2013, 10:46 PM
It seems that the camera app, fingerprint scanner, and at least one third party app, Infinity Blade III, already are making use of the 64-bit architecture. Seems like a good start to me for hardware not yet released. I would bet their more intensive core apps like imovie and iPhoto make good use of it as well.

Lifeisabeach
09-18-2013, 10:20 AM
John Gruber from Daring Fireball has a review up of the 5C and 5S. He has an excellent explanation of why the move from 32-bit to 64-bit made sense and why there are such huge performance boosts.
Daring Fireball: The iPhone 5S and 5C (http://daringfireball.net/2013/09/the_iphone_5s_and_5c)


ARMv8, the architecture upon which Apple’s new A7 is designed, is a clean break. ARM’s previous instruction set dated back 20 years. ARM has always been designed for low power consumption, but 20 years ago is forever in this industry. Rather than simply add 64-bit instructions to the old ISA, ARMv8 is a clean break designed for today’s — and the future — world. From an ARM white paper introducing ARMv8:


Fundamental to ARMv8 has to be the new instruction set, known as A64; the encoding of instructions to enable an application to utilize a 64-bit machine. ARM took the decision to introduce 64-bit through a new instruction set rather than extension of an existing instruction set for many good reasons. Most notably, and probably as no surprise, because we could develop a new independent instruction set to execute code in a lower power manner than by adding instructions to the existing instruction set. Of course, for compatibility reasons, we still support the entire ARMv7 machine in the new ARMv8 architecture, but when running 64-bit software, this part of the machine is not being used, and the area of complex legacy it had built up does not need to be active when running in the 64-bit ISA, unlike other architectures where 64-bit extension was simply added to the historical complexity and legacy of their 32-bit mode. The new ISA drew upon the years of experience of building different micro architecture implementations, so again it was defined so that these new processors can be more easily optimized for low power operation — an opportunity not really offered since the first ARMv4 machine that resulted in the now legendary low power ARM7 processors.


What does this mean? It means, for one thing, that the biggest reason for the performance and power consumption improvements going from the A6 to A7 is the switch from the ARMv7 to ARMv8 architectures, not 32- to 64-bit. ARMv8’s improved instruction set alone has resulted in 15-20 percent performance gains while simultaneously using less power, from what I’ve been told by informed sources. And though Apple could have gone to ARMv8 while remaining 32-bit only, it made no sense not to go 64-bit.

There are applications today — imaging, gaming, cryptography, video and photo filters — that will benefit from 64-bit despite the fact that the iPhone 5S has just 1 GB of RAM. It should prove faster overall, even if only slightly, than a hypothetical A7 that had switched to ARMv8 but remained 32-bit only.

But the big win is laying the groundwork for the future. iOS developers should have few problems recompiling their apps for 64-bit. (My Q Branch colleague Brent Simmons on how long it took to get Vesper to compile cleanly for 64-bit: “Just a few minutes.”) Apple’s been through this transition before, with Cocoa on Mac OS X,3 and any iOS developer who didn’t see this transition coming sooner or later simply wasn’t paying attention. Many apps should be native 64-bit binaries soon. By next year, when the A7 works its way down to the mid-range iPhones, most will be. And two years from now, it’s almost certain that all new iOS devices being sold will support 64-bit. It won’t be long until Apple can consider dropping 32-bit support and going 64-bit only. By the time it becomes feasible for iOS devices to have more than 4 GB of RAM, iOS will have already been a native 64-bit platform for several years.

But the big jaw dropper is this:


To put that in context, the iPhone 5S beats my 2008 15-inch MacBook Pro by a small measure in the Sunspider benchmark (with the MacBook Pro running the latest Safari 6.1 beta). The iPhone 5S is, in some measures, computationally superior to the top-of-the-line MacBook Pro from just five years ago. In your *bleeeeep* pocket.

ARM-based Macs, in another five years. Ten, tops. Calling it now!

mrplow
09-18-2013, 10:25 AM
It's chunky read but here's a pretty extensive end-to-end review of the 5s that touches on many points raised here:

AnandTech | The iPhone 5s Review (http://www.anandtech.com/show/7335/the-iphone-5s-review)

dtravis7
09-18-2013, 10:38 AM
The A7 CPU in the 5s is BEATING the new Intel Bay Trail Atom in many benchmarks. Like in Sunspider. That is the first device CPU to do this. My jaw about hit the floor when I saw that in Anands benchmarks.

vansmith
09-18-2013, 12:39 PM
ARM-based Macs, in another five years. Ten, tops. Calling it now!ARM licensees seem pretty focused on using its inherent power sipping designs for devices that need as much longevity as possible. What that means for future desktop designs is uncertain so I suppose anything is possible but Apple seems to be having tremendous success getting that battery life from Intel processors. So, I'll take that bet ($50?). ;)

Lifeisabeach
09-19-2013, 12:22 AM
ARM licensees seem pretty focused on using its inherent power sipping designs for devices that need as much longevity as possible. What that means for future desktop designs is uncertain so I suppose anything is possible but Apple seems to be having tremendous success getting that battery life from Intel processors. So, I'll take that bet ($50?). ;)

That'll barely cover lunch in 10 years. :Smirk:

dtravis7
09-19-2013, 12:35 AM
I wish people would read that review I posted the URL to with both 32 and 64 bit benchmarks. If you think Anand and his team don't know their stuff, I have pitty for you. That CPU is that much faster and in 64-Bit even more so.

Lifeisabeach
09-19-2013, 01:59 AM
I wish people would read that review I posted the URL to with both 32 and 64 bit benchmarks. If you think Anand and his team don't know their stuff, I have pitty for you. That CPU is that much faster and in 64-Bit even more so.

I was a long-time reader of Anandtech back before I switched to Macs and was building my own PCs. They and Tom's Hardware were my go-to sites for making decisions on what components to buy based on their guides and reviews. As far as I'm concerned, what they say is godsend.

Hey wait... I thought you weren't impressed with the 5S? ;D

dtravis7
09-19-2013, 02:01 AM
I was a long-time reader of Anandtech back before I switched to Macs and was building my own PCs. They and Tom's Hardware were my go-to sites for making decisions on what components to buy based on their guides and reviews.

Hey wait... I thought you weren't impressed with the 5S? ;D

5C. At the very first I was doubting 64-Bits like most were. Benchmarks tell the story so be nice. Before the tests there no proof of it's benefits.

osxx
09-19-2013, 02:06 AM
Whats funny will be watching the competition scramble to come out with their 64bit platform.

Lifeisabeach
09-19-2013, 02:17 AM
5C. At the very first I was doubting 64-Bits like most were. Benchmarks tell the story so be nice. Before the tests there no proof of it's benefits.

Ah. Well no one should be impressed by the 5C. It literally is the iPhone 5 with a plastic shell instead of the aluminum one.

Lifeisabeach
09-19-2013, 02:33 AM
Whats funny will be watching the competition scramble to come out with their 64bit platform.

No kidding. And Android isn't even 64-bit capable. Errrr... at least I had read that it wasn't and making it so would be no small matter, but articles are now out saying that it is 64-bit capable and always has been. I'm confused.
Android 64-bit support already baked in: just add hardware - SlashGear (http://www.slashgear.com/android-64-bit-support-already-baked-in-just-add-hardware-17298038/)

Certainly Linux is 64-bit capable, but my understanding is that the Java VM (Dalvik) isn't and that's going to be the challenge.

vansmith
09-19-2013, 10:14 AM
No kidding. And Android isn't even 64-bit capable. Errrr... at least I had read that it wasn't and making it so would be no small matter, but articles are now out saying that it is 64-bit capable and always has been. I'm confused.
Android 64-bit support already baked in: just add hardware - SlashGear (http://www.slashgear.com/android-64-bit-support-already-baked-in-just-add-hardware-17298038/)I'm guessing your confusion is similar in character to mine - Linux has been 64-bit for years but who knows what work is (not) needed to make the other layers 64-bit. I tried to find an answer but ended up finding things that make absolutely no sense to me.

I'm starting to see that the 64-bit processor has a few tangible benefits now and that it's very likely that support for it will grow over time (something I never doubted but it seems that it will happen with greater speed). I'm not sure what this means for mobile platforms but it can only be exciting.

Stretch
09-19-2013, 06:57 PM
Gruber (http://daringfireball.net/2013/09/the_iphone_5s_and_5c) (DaringFireball) also points out that the speed benefits aren't just because its 64bit (64bit is just an added bonus) and that most of the speed boost is because the new ARMv8 architecture design for the new A7.


What does this mean? It means, for one thing, that the biggest reason for the performance and power consumption improvements going from the A6 to A7 is the switch from the ARMv7 to ARMv8 architectures, not 32- to 64-bit. ARMv8’s improved instruction set alone has resulted in 15-20 percent performance gains while simultaneously using less power, from what I’ve been told by informed sources. And though Apple could have gone to ARMv8 while remaining 32-bit only, it made no sense not to go 64-bit.

dtravis7
09-19-2013, 07:19 PM
Read the two graphs toward the bottom of this page. Person who ran the tests knows what they are doing. Same CPU with 32 and 64 bit performance tests.

AnandTech | The iPhone 5s Review (http://www.anandtech.com/show/7335/the-iphone-5s-review/4)

RONE
09-19-2013, 11:28 PM
Great write-ups on the new processors. Very informative, and very exciting.

Slydude
09-20-2013, 12:07 AM
@lifeisabeach I think I have heard others suggest a few years ago that this processing power would soon be available so you are probably. I think it will take that kind of power to make wearable computing anywhere close to feasible on a wide scale.

When Apple announced a 64 bit processor arrangement I figured there had to be some forward-looking reason. It's not the kind of thing that strikes me as change for change sake. For me, the real question is what will developers do with this power? Eye candy or something truly interesting?